The Israel Discussion Thread

[EPICVIEW]

With all due respect guys how many times -just in your life time- have you heard about something like this?
And it always works.
I'm just mentioning this cause you were talking about anti-semitism being on the rise. I don't think it's on the rise at all but if someone does see signs of it and claim that it's unprovoked then we're lying to ourselves.

WTF?.... really..

and any objective sourcing of news concisley shows its on the rise..  


google the term "antisemitism on the rise" ...take a look..

[PlaysLikeMyung]

epicview. seriously. you made the claim, so back it up. you've gotta stop telling people to 'just google it'. it's intellectually lazy.

[Super Dude]

https://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/israel-at-63-what-part-of-shut-up-do-you-not-understand-1.360754

Israel at 63: What part of Shut Up do you not understand?
When, I wonder this Independence Day, did Israelis lose their nerve? These people, who used to be all nerve. When did they opt to be led by sheep?

By Bradley Burston
I love this place. Take it on faith. I do. I cannot explain it even to my own satisfaction. I am not blind to the faults of this place. I have never been anywhere more infuriating, more smugly reckless in action and inaction, more cannibalistic in its official attacks on its own core values, more headstrong in error. Who'd have imagined it, though: love - committed, true, enduring love – turns out to be the opposite of blind. True love, it turns out, winds up seeing it all.

This is what I see this week, this Independence Day:

1. The peoples of Israel and Palestine have rafts more good will, vision, common sense and honest concern for their children and their children's children, than do their leaders.

2. The peoples of Israel and Palestine are led by sheep. Sheep whose primary concern is for their own welfare. Sheep who are being blackmailed by single-minded predators. Predators who trade in fear, intimidation, incitement and radical religious fiat.

3. After 63 years, the peoples of Israel and Palestine believe that they understand one another. They do not. Polls show that the great majority on both sides would like to see two states. Still, traumatized by history, bloodshed, and personal grief, a large segment of each side believes that the other does not. Meanwhile, should there be any progress toward two states, the predators will be right there to slash and burn - if need be, literally.

It is Independence Day, which Israelis will celebrate despite their government, and certainly not because of it. What can you say about a government which since its inception has had but one message for Palestinian and Jew alike, one message for its American allies, for the North American Jewish Community, for the United Nations, for Richard Goldstone and Rick Jacobs, for Tony Kushner and Barack Obama, for Naomi Hazan and Jeremy Ben-Ami:

"What part of Shut Up do you not understand?"

Palestinians are used to the message. They've been getting it for decades. For many Israelis, and Jews as a whole, the message is less familiar. But with every passing week, it is becoming second nature.

The Start Up Nation has somehow acquired the Put Up and Shut Up mode of government, a regime of 19th Century cures for 20th Century afflictions. A regime of obsolete explanations and obdurate, unwarranted self-love, of hijacking democratic tools to serve anti-democratic ends. A regime whose very life is warning Israeli Arabs to shut up about their own history and tragedies, of warning leftist Israeli Jews to shut up about injustice, of warning human rights groups to shut up about morality, of warning asylum seekers to shut up about wanting to be productive citizens, of warning minorities to shut up about living with Jews, of sending the message of shut up and/or leave to non-Orthodox converts to Judaism. A regime, in the end, reduced to granting podiums, salaries and prizes to rabbi-bureaucrats who, in the guise of fearing God, preach segregation, race-hatred, blue-white supremacy, and, above all, fear of peace.

Now, as Independence Day dawns, the government is going after its own. Officials have announced that commemorations for the nation's fallen will not formal honor three firemen who sacrificed their lives trying to save others in the inferno of the Carmel Forest. Turning a deaf ear to public outcry, the officials said they were bound by laws and regulations (which, as any Israeli can tell you, everyone ignores, as officials did when they bent and reversed their decision, then reversed it back, then announced they were forming a committee).

At the same time, the Interior Ministry announced that its controversial new biometric national identity cards would begin with the serial number 6,000,000, to honor the victims of the Holocaust – this as tens of thousands of Holocaust survivors living in Israel have been neglected, forced to subsist on meager food and insufficient nursing care, as officials bickered over and sat on the compensation payments which could have made their lives much more comfortable.

When, I wonder this Independence Day, did Israelis lose their nerve? These people, who used to be all nerve. When did they opt to be led by sheep? Israelis, whose leaders talk about Te'uzah, daring, until their listeners are gray in the face – when did they stop taking risks? These people, my friends, the Israelis, who, when they live abroad or work on start-ups, astound with their flexibility and willingness to improvise, their powers of innovation, their courage of imagination, when did they begin to give up on their own future?

Part of it, of course, is that the same Occupation which ruins the lives of our neighbors, our cousins, the Palestinians, has also rendered Israel bloated and fearful and tainted and dumbed down and callous – and thus fundamentally unable to do anything about the most enduring threat to its own future, the Occupation.

But we know that, whether we do anything about it or not, we are a country in transition. The thought scares us dry. The thought has affected our government like headlights on deer. We know that after September, after a UN roll call over the question of Palestine, we may never be the same country again. And, in the back of our minds lurks the nagging thought that when that happens, we may yet be better off.

There was a time when I wished I had been able to live at the time of hamedina-sh'b'derech, the nation in the making: pre-state Eretz Israel. Little did I know that I would live long enough to experience just that - pre-state Israel.

This, this ungodly mess of ours, this is pre-state Israel. We have no independence. The occupation has reduced us to a suburb of the settlements, a province of Palestine. As it stands, the barriers to our independence, our sovereignty as a democratic state of the Jews are steep: the blackmail of the settlement movement, the enmity of our enemies; the zadon, the ill-will, the low expectations, the unapologetic failure of our government.

Oddly, the most desperate of us, the most frightened, are the leaders of the right. They know that they are one pragmatic Israeli leader away from losing the West Bank. One leader who can face down predators for the common good. One leader less timid than Netanyahu, the sheep, who, when it comes to making peace, can face down neither his wife nor his centenarian father. A senior settler leader said recently that failed in their goal of attracting 650,000 settlers and rendering a Palestinian state impossible. They know that they have altogether failed to sway the Israeli and world Jewish public to their cause. All they've got going for them, at this point, is sheep.

People who know me, know that I have nothing against sheep. In fact, I know them to be intelligent and remarkable, when given a chance, when treated with fairness. They will rise to the occasion. They will act in concert. They will act in cleverness. Left to their own devices, they will do what's best for them. They will even face down predators.

Our neighbors, our cousins the Palestinians, are taking halting but significant steps toward independence. Our neighbors in the Arab world and Iran have shocked and inspired us in the risks they have taken to see societies become what the majority would like to see, not a coterie of strongmen and/or clerics. They scare us because we suddenly realize we know nothing of where all of this is headed. As if we ever did.

I wish the Palestinians well in their quest for a state. And I wish us well in our quest for one of our own. May we learn the difference between blind, rude, arrogant nationalism and true love of country, the desire for a place of safety and freedom for those we love, and peace with neighbors we respect.

Love, as the song says, hurts. It confounds. But it also heals. Take it on faith. In this unknowable pre-state era, both peoples could yet confound us all. On their own. They could at long last do what's best for them. They could take the lead, over these leaders with the wool of politics and position pulled down over their eyes. At long last, these peoples could bend and reverse, and start to heal, and actually become what they so yearn to be. Independent. No longer hostage to predators. Free.

says: Adami, do you know if this guy is worth his salt?  Because I gotta say, for all that's going down in that area right now, and for all the great potential dangers such a new geopolitics environment could pose to Israel, it would be really fucking great to hear that the majority of citizenry in both countries want a two-state solution and have for a while.

[Adami]

He's mostly right. He kind of lost me at Israel being a suburb of palestine, but whatever.


But yea, the problem is the people won't do squat. They want peace, they want a two state solution, but are silenced by the right wing minority who are running the entire country. At this point it has become apathy, the people want peace but are so worn down by the situation and they gave up. It's sad.

[Super Dude]

I see the opposite happening with this UN resolution; I think that will provide the encouragement necessary to mobilize the masses.  At least I hope so.  'Cause if all this resentment for the ruling class comes to a boil, this could be the first real bilateral road to peace, namely seeing the leftists of both countries coming together to retake their sovereignty.

All idealist shit, but surely not impossible.

[IdoSC]

Being an Israeli teenager I'd like to thank you all for this very intense, yet very polite discussion. Your involvement in worldwide politics and care for both sides is really touching. Of course we all have different opinions, but I truly believe things like this kind of discussion and involvement will lead us to a way better future, regardless of the tough way there.

I don't want to get too involved around here because this thread really deserves to remain clear of unbiased opinions in my opinion, but I just want to comment on this one thing:

1. The peoples of Israel and Palestine have rafts more good will, vision, common sense and honest concern for their children and their children's children, than do their leaders.

I just want to point out that I personally don't believe in this statement wholeheartedly - our leaders (on both sides) have ton of pressure on their back, limited budget for education, security etc, and especially a very limited space to make decisions. Keep in mind that it's a VERY gentle situation; anything our leaders say, do or decide receives a national reaction and an international reaction. Living in a democratic country, it really limits their possibilities and options, but there's a reason why so many people voted for Netanyahu, and anyone else before him; We all know he cares. We all knew the previous prime ministers cared. We try to feel safe and confident despite the circumstances, and I truly believe our children will do so too in the future.

[IdoSC]

For rock music maybe but Israel is a lead in electronic music.
In 1997 I saw a Dana International on MTV when I was in Egypt and got a boner.
In 1998 Larry King interviewed her and I learned a fact that shocked me so deep I can never trust an Israeli musician again

Yup I mean rock music. Israel is crazy horrible at that, not sure why, maybe it's because all the potential rockers have become rabbis or soldiers.

Damn even Iraq has a heavy metal scene that's worth mentioning.

Yeah, unfortunately. I've only heard of one "popular" Israeli metal band that's worth to point out, Orphaned Land. That's mostly because most people around here appreciate this kind of music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_music
And the rest of us, well, we do fine enough with more international bands like DT

[Super Dude]

Dude don't worry about your opinion being biased; I'm a Diaspora Jew and Adami's a former Israeli.

[Adami]

Dude don't worry about your opinion being biased; I'm a Diaspora Jew and Adami's a former Israeli.

GOD DAMNIT I'M STILL ISRAELI!

[Super Dude]

I thought you emigrated?

[Adami]

I thought you emigrated?

Yes, but I'm still a citizen and I'm still from there. If you move to Ireland, you're not a former American.

[Super Dude]

I apologize, I didn't mean it like that.  I only meant in the sense of being a former resident of Israel.

[Adami]

I apologize, I didn't mean it like that.  I only meant in the sense of being a former resident of Israel.

Former resident is lovely.

[Adami]

Well so much for peace.

[Super Dude]

What happened?

[Adami]

What happened?

Palestinians from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza started rioting. Some palestinians rushed the lebanon/israel border and tried to attack/destroy as much as they could. Same thing happened in the Golan Heights, Gaza and partially in Egypt and Jordan. Jordanian police took care of the riots in their country and Egypt took care of the ones in their country, Israel fired at the invading forces and 12 people have been killed. This might be a little hard to spin as a purely "israel is evil" story though, since the people who died were clearly trying to violently rush into the country.

[Super Dude]

So...some good news, I guess.

[Adami]

So...some good news, I guess.

None.

The closest to "good" news in there is that Jordan and Egypt didn't help the protestors like Syria did. Nothing else is good about this.

[Super Dude]

And that it'll be hard to paint Israel as the bad guy beyond the usual.

[Adami]

And that it'll be hard to paint Israel as the bad guy beyond the usual.

Honestly, with at least 12 Palestinians dead, hundreds of others wounded, at least 1 Israeli dead and others wounded and of course the threat of rising violence, then it really doesn't matter who gets painted as the bad guy.

[Super Dude]

Making Netanyahu's words at the upcoming White House conference all the more critical.

Hey on that note, who was the last PM to have a leftist coalition?

[Adami]

Making Netanyahu's words at the upcoming White House conference all the more critical.

Hey on that note, who was the last PM to have a leftist coalition?

Maybe Barak?

[Rathma]

I wonder if any Palestinians made it inside Israel.

[Adami]

I wonder if any Palestinians made it inside Israel.

Yes they did.



Also it seems, that much of the protests were aimed to be non violent with mostly adolescents deciding otherwise. If the overall goal was a non violent protest, then I fully support and cheer them on.

Here's a great article on the matter.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110516/wl_time/08599207167300

[Super Dude]

Agreed. I'd love to see the Palestinians get a Gandhi/MLKJ-based movement going.

[Super Dude]

Adami, do you read the New York Times?  Found this article on Haaretz reporting on Abbass's op-ed there:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/abbas-urges-un-recognize-palestinian-state-pave-way-for-legal-action-against-israel-1.362254

Give it a read through.  I actually read the op-ed itself earlier this morning, and Abbass notably omits from the picture of the 1947 solution Palestine's denial of the borders.  I dunno about you, but I'm sticking with Israel on this one.

Edit: I'm also really beginning to warm up to Livni.

[Rathma]

Obama supports 1967 borders Palestine

https://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110519/ts_yblog_theenvoy/obama-lays-out-u-s-vision-for-supporting-arab-democracy-resolving-israeli-palestinian-conflict

[Super Dude]

So do I. As a strong supporter of Israel, I consider concessions of this kind to be in the nation's and the world's best interest. As Adami says Israel could be diplomatically invincible, but it's foolish to go on like this. Who really benefits, but the far right and the Israeli and Palestinian electorate?

[Super Dude]

Switch electorate with representatives.

[rumborak]

Has the Israeli government ever made an official statement about what borders they would see as valid for a Palestinian state?

rumborak

[Adami]

Has the Israeli government ever made an official statement about what borders they would see as valid for a Palestinian state?

rumborak

They've made offers, but I'm pretty sure it changes somewhat with each new leader. The problem (one of many) we face here is that Benjy doesn't know how to be a peace time prime minister.

[rumborak]

That is definitely visible to the outside, that Netanyahu isn't really interested in changing the status quo.

rumborak

[Super Dude]

I really wish Livni had gotten it.

[Adami]

That is definitely visible to the outside, that Netanyahu isn't really interested in changing the status quo.

rumborak

He has no real goals aside of staying in power. This current situation keeps him in power.

[EPICVIEW]

I agree.. I wish Benjiman was more like the amazing Abbas and Hamas, those Pal guys are all about peace. The issue is Netenyahu, the nerve of this guy trying to protect Israel. what a dope... dont forget its all about land.. nothing more, if they just had ever single yard they want, utopia would happen. and I mean Egypt is solid , a steadfast friend on the south, dont sweat the Muslim Brotherhood, its just an Arab Spring!!!.. and Lebanon is going fine, no issues there. Syria solid as a rock.. Now is the Time for Israel to just surrender all security that is working
Livni.. yea shes got the answers!!!  The problem is the fence is working in Israel and thats gotta be stopped too!!  Hudnas all around
Netenyahu.. just surrender it all.. Golan too.. everything.. go back to the 1948 lines.. then it will be peace.