The Israel Discussion Thread

[Adami]

Probably because of the composition of said UN Council.

Oh yes, the reality of the situation. Amazing how that keeps getting in the way.

[Super Dude]

Innit?  I'm really hoping (and I know it won't happen) that the Israeli leadership will make the following decision: https://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-can-redeem-itself-by-recognizing-a-palestinian-state-1.358756

[Adami]

Innit?  I'm really hoping (and I know it won't happen) that the Israeli leadership will make the following decision: https://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-can-redeem-itself-by-recognizing-a-palestinian-state-1.358756

At this point the Israeli government is like the bitter old man who will never, under any circumstance, budge.

[Super Dude]

Sooo basically we're fucked.

[Adami]

Sooo basically we're fucked.

Yup. Unless Israel has a civil war, and the secularists take over (finally).

[Super Dude]

Which also will probably not happen.

[Adami]

Which also will probably not happen.

Grab a galil and a tanach, we're taking over.

[Super Dude]

  Yes, we'll establish a government only slightly less polarized than the current regime.

But seriously Adami, you know much more about Israeli politics on the ground than I do.  Do you really think it'll come to civil war?

[Adami]

Yes, we'll establish a government only slightly less polarized than the current regime.

But seriously Adami, you know much more about Israeli politics on the ground than I do.  Do you really think it'll come to civil war?

No, there won't be a civil war. The population is mostly ex military or religious. And even if the military/ex military feel that the power needs to shift, it's not in their personalities to act on it to such an extent.

[Super Dude]

So what do you think will happen?

[Adami]

So what do you think will happen?

Business as usual. Israel is pretty untouchable and they know it, they have no reason to back down on anything. So........business as usual.


Lame stuff really.

[Super Dude]

How are they untouchable?  U.S. hasn't exactly been nanny lately, and soon enough we won't be able to even if we wanted.  And of course the U.N. and E.U. are basically hostile towards Israel by default.

[Adami]

How are they untouchable?  U.S. hasn't exactly been nanny lately, and soon enough we won't be able to even if we wanted.  And of course the U.N. and E.U. are basically hostile towards Israel by default.

If the UN had any power they would have done something.

The Arab nations know that they'd have to realllllllllllllllly get their acts together to take on Israel, which they won't, and it would take all of them in a fully combined effort to make any difference. However by that point, they'd be attacked by America, England and other countries with nukes. So the Arab countries won't touch them either, because just like the UN, they would have already made a move. Well, they did make a move, twice, and they lost both times.

America I guess could take out Israel, but they have no desire to. So unless the world collectively decided to eliminate the Jews (again) Israel is pretty safe.

However, it is unfortunate that this status of being untouchable has corrupted and ruined the country for the most part.

[Progmetty]

How are they untouchable?  U.S. hasn't exactly been nanny lately, and soon enough we won't be able to even if we wanted.  And of course the U.N. and E.U. are basically hostile towards Israel by default.

If the UN had any power they would have done something.

The Arab nations know that they'd have to realllllllllllllllly get their acts together to take on Israel, which they won't, and it would take all of them in a fully combined effort to make any difference. However by that point, they'd be attacked by America, England and other countries with nukes. So the Arab countries won't touch them either, because just like the UN, they would have already made a move.

I agree with you that far, it's not gonna be during our life time will we see.

So unless the world collectively decided to eliminate the Jews (again) Israel is pretty safe.

What do you mean? Jews will be safe with or without Israel. I think you mean eliminate Zionism.

[Adami]

History dictates that Jews aren't safe without Israel.

The amount of current jews in the world is only a little bit more than double the amount hitler killed. We haven't been safe for thousands of years.

[Super Dude]

True dat. That's the reason we tried to return to Israel in the first place.

[Progmetty]

The amount of current jews in the world is only a little bit more than double the amount hitler killed. We haven't been safe for thousands of years.

Well I dunno about the "world" but I think the Jews in America are safe and frankly much happier than the ones in Israel.

[Super Dude]

For now.  Anti-Semitism in the U.S. has been increasing since the economic downturn started (although not nearly as much as in Europe), and so has racism in general.

[Adami]

The amount of current jews in the world is only a little bit more than double the amount hitler killed. We haven't been safe for thousands of years.

Well I dunno about the "world" but I think the Jews in America are safe and frankly much happier than the ones in Israel.

For now. It's actually quite amazing how fast things can change.

[Super Dude]

Honestly, the only place I'd consider safe for Jews indefinitely is China, if only because history has shown they've only had one incident of violence against Jews ever which was towards the end of the Early Medieval Period (not to mention it was carried out by a rebel faction and no one actually affiliated with the Chinese establishment), and the only official state-sanctioned "anti-semitism" was the state-official atheism of the Communist 20th century which authorized government officials to close down synagogues.

[Perpetual Change]

Honestly, the only place I'd consider safe for Jews indefinitely is China.... the only official state-sanctioned "anti-semitism" was the state-official atheism of the Communist 20th century which authorized government officials to close down synagogues.

That sounds like a big deal to me.

[Super Dude]

Except now those same synagogues have been re-opened, and the Kaifeng Jews took a pilgrimage to the Great Wall to celebrate Chanukkah this past year.  That sounds like a big deal too.

[Perpetual Change]

Except now those same synagogues have been re-opened, and the Kaifeng Jews took a pilgrimage to the Great Wall to celebrate Chanukkah this past year.  That sounds like a big deal too.

That can change at any moment for no reason. China isn't exactly the best place for religious minorities.

[Super Dude]

True, you'd be the one to know.  That said, the one violent incident in ancient history and this one government-sanctioned act, compared to what most other nations have done to Jews in the past, is almost like welcoming them with open arms.  I can't really speak for other East Asian countries but I know Japan has had worse dealings with the Jews, and the so-called Land of the Free and Home of the Brave...well, just watch Gentlemen's Agreement, that should outline the basics for the time of postwar peace and freedom.

In the modern day no less for example, Brazil is no longer a safe place to be Jewish.

[Perpetual Change]

Well, Chinese government's been fine by me so far anyway, even though I'm in Hong Kong. But they seem to have a track record of randomly and secretly imprisoning people whilst pretending to embrace their ways 

[Super Dude]

No different from Muslims and other brown people living under the Bush Doctrine.

[Perpetual Change]

 

I brought this up with a friend from mainland China during breakfast today. He was telling me that China's a safe place for minorities, and that there aren't really many problems. But he was also telling me that China and Chinese people pretty much as a rule oppose Israel, even if it's in a less than public capacity most of the time.

[Super Dude]

And that's different from every country except the US how?

[Perpetual Change]

And that's different from every country except the US how?

Well, you're the one that was claiming China was exceptionally kind to Jews or something 

[Super Dude]

Well they are okay with Jews, so that still rings true.  The problem with Europe for example is that the public is largely anti-Israel just as anti-Semitism has been rising.  In the U.S. the public is still largely pro-Israel, but that's been on the wane, and there certainly is anti-Semitism here.

[Perpetual Change]

What do you mean by anti-semeticism? Like, people joining hate groups? Or just people's general attitudes? Or both?

I'm sure Jews would be welcome in China just as much as any foreigners. But keep in mind that "welcome" /= "right not to be slurred and insulted regularly." You should keep in mind that the person I was talking to this morning about this was the same person who laughed off the fact that I was basically slurred and laughed at on an hourly basis when I was in China for being a white guy. That, to Chinese people, doesn't constitute as bad behavior. It's normal.

So my friend who said "minorities have no problems in China" is leaving out the idea that Americans aren't really used to being called racial slurs and that any minorities going there should expect that regularly.

[Super Dude]

Wow, I had no idea.  The Japanese certainly had some tact when I was in their country, although I'm sure there are folks who mutter gaijin under their breath every time they see a tourist walk by.

As for anti-Semitism in the West, it's much easier to point it out in Europe than in America, which, let me put it this way: Jewish schools in Britain are circled by barbed wire.  I'm too tired now to get into how it appears in America, but I have a few anecdotes I could share tomorrow.  Would anyone else like to pick up the slack though?

[Progmetty]

With all due respect guys how many times -just in your life time- have you heard about something like this?
And it always works.
I'm just mentioning this cause you were talking about anti-semitism being on the rise. I don't think it's on the rise at all but if someone does see signs of it and claim that it's unprovoked then we're lying to ourselves.

[Super Dude]

How does this justify anti-Semitism?  Germans plain stole stuff from Jews from money to possessions to homes to businesses, and we still haven't nearly reached the point of reclaiming what they took.  And honestly I haven't heard of this going on very often.

And how the hell do you justify anti-Semitism at all?

[Progmetty]

I didn't say anything about justification but you have to recognize how radically different other people might view the same issues. Especially when they're so redundant over decades.