Egyptian Revolution Jan 25th 2011

[Progmetty]

To me, the real  feasible solution to Gaza is for it go back to Egypt and become part of Egypt again. Israel would be forced to cut off infastructure to it forever under the next conflict anyway. no conflict can be solved with Hamas, so how does Israel overcome that?

I don't think Gaza should go back to Egypt, it should be part of a free Palestinian state.
Yes conflicts with Hamas can be solved if you start treating them respectfully and seeking a half way solution, bringing down the bullying tone would so make a difference with Hammas, Abbas is a puppet and does not represent the real will of the Palestinian people, so they can go ahead and make all sort of deal or agreements with him but it means nothing cause he means nothing.
Israel does not want to meet the Palestinians half way, doesn't wanna give up anything, so they talk to people like Abbas who says things they like even though it doesn't represent the Palestinians, while the government Palestinians elected by choice is alienated and still fighting for what they always stood for, they never changed a word.
A Palestinian guy once told me "America wanted us to hold an election and be civilized like them, okay we did, we want Hamas, America doesn't like that so all hell breaks loose to allow a war to be waged till Hamas is gone", now the Palestinians are upset with Hamas cause they're hungry and cut off in Gaza, they're too weak to struggle and keep going so they're willing to let all their dreams of freedom and dignity go to waste just for Israel to allow them to live again.
In Israel there are people who crave peace beyond belief, people so smart who look to the future and know Israel won't be simply able to kill all living Arabs anytime soon so the future lies in co-existentence, coexisting imo will not come until there's a Palestinian state and Jerusalem is a U.N controlled city that doesn't belong to Israel nor Palestine, the money coming in from tourists -cause the city will be a religious tourist attraction for Muslims and Jews- should be divided on both states, Gaza the Palestinian capital and Tel Aviv the Israeli one.
I don't see peace happening any other way, you have to make this people feel like they can make choices and decide their fate.
A little interesting fact I learned from an Israeli friend in Sharm; the voices who bitch most about Israel never comes from Israel, it's from Jews who live outside Israel and try to convince themselves or others that they fight for the same goals as the people in Israel, the people in Israel are holding on to their dream, they are living in danger and worry, they are standing on the land they think they own, they are people with convictions, some of them think Israel is being a plain and straightforward killer and they're okay with that cause they think they're righteous and some of them think Israel should pull back if they want to have a real future in the area, they don't waste time bitching about anything.
I think you should not worry about Egypt, Egyptian military is equipped with weapons we bought from the Russians in the early 70's, yes my friends who went to obligatory enrollment have seen it and trained on it, Israel has American weapons, Umbrella kind of weapons.

as far as the TMB, any look into  them would show extremely unsettling ties and history..Do you think they are moderate? could they have a warm peace with Israel and the USA?

Yes! I've seen these people, they are strict in their religious practice but they are not violent, extreme or war mongers, they are college professors and doctors, I don't want them to come to power but I don't fear their coming to power, worst thing they can do is cut all diplomatic relations with Israel and USA.
Egyptians in general feel so much guilt every time Israel goes ballistic on Palestinians because they feel they should be fighting aside them, that's something you can't change until you make the Palestinians happy.
I can assure you it's highly unlikely that this ends up like the Iranian revolution.

[Adami]

Beautifully written Metty. 

[EPICVIEW]

I hope you are right Metty.. if it can be moderate and secular, and peace loving, then of course it would be the best thing ever, and I think everyone wanting peace would be happy

[Progmetty]

Thanks for the well wishes guys, I appreciate your kindness.
My brother is guarding his street with the other residents, they have 3 hour shifts, he has a kitchen knife and a metal pipe, it seems enough to go through a Silent Hill game but according to him "the looters will have to stop and laugh for 5 minutes at my weapons before they consider shooting me", get this; the army told them to be more careful cause all the abandoned police stations has been looted of arms, that's machine guns and pistols.
There's no more stock of anything at grocery stores, people bought everything they can for a long shut-in home period, my family have enough to last them 2 days according to my brother.
The looters are moving around in big trucks.
Inmates have broken out of a large prison on the way to my hometown of Helwan, the prison is on the highway and the army is there now.

[Cool Chris]

metty, thank you for the updates and posting your thoughts, and I'm glad you've been able to get in touch with your family. Hang in there, bro.

[El Barto]

So what's the update on your family, Metty?  The security situation there doesn't seem to be getting any better.

[Progmetty]

I don't wanna bore you guys but here goes:
My mother insisted on going back to her apartment to feed her cat and my brother was really upset about it but they drove in two cars across Maadi (where we live), my brother was on the phone with me for the drive until he saw a group of soldiers and a tank then he hung up.
He called me back to tell me the soldiers approached his car and mom's to make sure we weren't thugs or hiding prison convicts, they were nice and respectful to talk to, as he drove away he noticed there were around 10 guys tied up and sitting on their knees behind the tank, they are probably arrested thugs.
They found a super market open but very crowded, they got stock of groceries and left.
When they got to my mother's house she told my brother she doesn't wanna go back with him cause she's not comfortable at his small apartment where his wife and mother in law already were, he called me and handed her the phone to beg her to change her mind but it was no good, the comfortable living space and privacy thing are her excuses which really shows how little understanding of the situation she has because nothing like that ever happened to her before.
My brother went back to his apartment to rest until his next guard shift starts (every 3 hours), then I went to sleep too around 4am Texas time and just got up, trying to get a hold of him again now.

[lateralus88]

Believe me Metty, and I'm sure I speak for most, these updates are anything but boring. In fact, I really appreciate you keeping us posted like this, because it's very interesting to get a real perspective on this situation outside of news media.

[jsem]

Believe me Metty, and I'm sure I speak for most, these updates are anything but boring. In fact, I really appreciate you keeping us posted like this, because it's very interesting to get a real perspective on this situation outside of news media.

+100000

Very well said PLM

[El Barto]

Indeed.  Aside the general concern for your family's well being,  it would appear that we're seeing a damned fascinating bit of history unfold.  The updates are most appreciated.

[Chino]

Keep them coming, please.

[Progmetty]

2:30 am Cairo time, first time my brother goes to sleep since 5:00am, now I'm trying to keep in contact with both him and my mother, my mother doesn't have a cell phone plan that can make long phone calls so I have to call her from here on some piece of junk pain in the ass service called starphone which is a long exhausting process in every phone call that sort of resembles making a 1930 phone call.
There's only one real development is that my cousin was told by a friend of his who lives near a big military airbase that they saw foreign military airplanes landing there, not fighting aircrafts, the huge one that carries supplies, they're almost certain it's Israeli and think it's carrying more "crowd control" weapons like tear gas and rubber bullets, none of this is confirmed, just eyewitness speculations.
The government has shut down Jazeera in Egypt but they can't touch CNN, CNN is the only non-Arabic media source I have seen that it are completely honest and clear about Arabic matters, their reporters are still out on the street in Egypt and roaming with cameras.
What I was too stupid to realize earlier is that the disappearance of police didn't mean their defeat or retreat, it's the worst move of brutal terror the government ever done, I'll try to paint this for you:
- While the Egyptian police main mission has being a political terror tool against opposition; it also was doing a good job keeping criminals on a leash, our criminals have a slightly different story.
- Egyptian criminals are fueled primarily by pure hate of the rich and middle class, basically everyone who can afford to take a daily shower, these criminals have been treated with outstanding brutality, I've seen police crack down and beat criminals up on the street after arrest, I've seen a man standing in front of an officer trembling, the officer slaps the hell out of his face to the point where you can actually see his cheeks swelling and telling him that if he raises his hand to defend his face again he will keep slapping him until he doesn't, on the street!
To make things clearer while I can't really express the thought right; our criminals are Heath Ledger type of Joker, they have no conscience or religion.
Now these guys are out on the street free and fearless, they have all the weapons they looted from all the abandoned police stations and they want all sort of things you can imagine, they're groups and individuals, they're on trucks and motorcycles, they helped free the prison inmates, that's why all these vigilante groups formed, the vigilante folks are tough but all they have are sewer pipes and kitchen knives for the most part, it's a one rare occasion when I found American baseball obsession helpful cause clubs would have been great.
The army is the only thing helping fight them off now, the army has no handcuffs, they're having a tough time detaining these guys once captured as 2 soldiers trying to use ropes to tie 10 criminals wastes a lot of valuable time.
- The point: The government knew that was gonna happen once the police disappears, now out of the protesters emerged the people who are terrified at the situation, afraid for their lives, families and properties, the protesters are holding on as much as they can and they are true heroes imo, the terrified people -though you can't blame them- are exporting a slightly different picture to the outside world which is: we need law and order back urgently or we won't survive this, we don't care about the reforms anymore.
My brother tells me that now the protesters -mostly under 30 of age- are being called upon by their worried sick families to come home, another tremendous pressure upon them, we don't have the thing where you can say no and yell at you parents in Egypt, not among educated Christians and Muslims raised inside a household, which is most people.
- Another dirty card Mubarak played is that he called Pope Shenouda and asked him to call upon Christian protesters to stand down, Egyptian Christians never disobey that guy, I don't understand the inner workings of that church very well but disobeying that man is probably a sin for them, but my friend -you may remember the last time I went to Egypt was to be best man at his wedding- told me he's not standing down, he has his wife with him on the street right now.
I'm sorry for the bad writing skills, things are happening so fast and I rarely have the chance and mental clearance to sit down and actually type.

[El Barto]

From what I'm reading, it seems like the military is starting to get things under control.  One of the big-wigs also announced that they wouldn't do anything to deter further protests;  they only want to stabilize the situation.  If both of those things are true, then it should only be a matter of time.  Anarchy from the sudden power vacuum, whether intentional or not,  was probably Hosni's last, best shot. 

It would also appear that the Egyptian military is a pretty damned professional organization.  It'll be quite interesting to see how it goes about the next few days. 

[Progmetty]

I think it was intentional El Barto and I think gonna eventually work, the army is only getting things under control downtown but the suburbs are up for grabs.
The military is strong, friendly and nonviolent but that doesn't mean anything cause they're still fully obideient to Mubarak who's the supreme commander of the armed forces and the high military posts are all people within his chain of command.

[ack44]

Dumb question: are there any people in Egypt who are calling for an Egyptian government in the tradition of the Pharaohs and ancient Egyptian religions? That would be badass.

EDIT:

Truly beautiful

[Progmetty]

Dumb question: are there any people in Egypt who are calling for an Egyptian government in the tradition of the Pharaohs and ancient Egyptian religions? That would be badass.

Nope, nobody even thought about that, but it's a running joke that Mubarak is a pharaoh, Pharaohs were worshiped by their people as Gods, for years we have been making fun of ourselves that we got back to that point and that's why we're too afraid to move against Mubarak, even though I don't think it was ever actually fear as much as it was the general feeling of our inability to unite in a stance.
I just got off an hour long phone call with my brother, he's on his shift right now and while we talked, told me a bunch of fascinating stories, mostly horrific but fascinating nonetheless.
My friend tells me some Islamic extremists in Alexandria are distributing flyers about not trusting ElBaradei because he's too "westernized" and won't uphold our traditions, nut jobs, I'm still not too worried about such groups, my brother is a very religious guy and even he doesn't want the ruling party to be based on extremist religion.
On a funny note my brother told me that "Right now it's like living inside a Megadeth album, with the chaos, the looters, army forces, the revloution and the armed convicts, it's not as much fun as Mustaine makes it sound".

[Vivace]

Metty this is by far the greatest reading I have done in a long time and 1) am moved by your courage and your families courage during this ordeal 2) that you find the time to report not just the outer conflict but the inner conflict that is how it affects the innocent is just beyond words. Such accounts should not be confined to just this board alone and I highly recommend either starting a blog or something if possible. These are feelings and events I think a lot of the world needs to hear. Especially the union of Islamic Arabs and Christian Arabs. THAT is forward progress and the best forward progress ANY area of the world has seen in a long time. That is truely one of the greatest positive things I have seen and it moves me to tears to see that sign. That sign should NEVER disappear, even after this ordeal is over.

Please take care over there and please keep us posted. If setting up a blog is not possible or there are concerns, perhaps someone here can set one for you and post your messages to the blog. There is just something in your posts the world needs to hear.

[Chino]

What exactly is the story with the internet over there?

[El Barto]

I think it was intentional El Barto and I think gonna eventually work, the army is only getting things under control downtown but the suburbs are up for grabs.
The military is strong, friendly and nonviolent but that doesn't mean anything cause they're still fully obideient to Mubarak who's the supreme commander of the armed forces and the high military posts are all people within his chain of command.

So do you not believe them when they say they won't do anything to deter protests? 

[El Barto]

It looks like the military has officially announced their intentions to let people protest:

Army endorses Egyptians' right to protest

In its first formal comment on events on Monday, the armed forces command issued a statement calculated for popular appeal. "The armed forces will not resort to use of force against our great people," it said, though it would stop looters.

"Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody."

Curious if this is bullshit or not, as if it's legitimate, it should be the end of the current state.

[Chino]

Are people actually protesting peacefully over there?

[Progmetty]

Vivace I'm not in Egypt right now, I'm in Texas, I'm telling you what my contacts of family and friends from Egypt are telling me through the phone but thanks a lot of your well wishes.

I highly recommend either starting a blog or something if possible. These are feelings and events I think a lot of the world needs to hear.

I never tried anything like that before so I have no idea how it's done or how the writing should be like, besides I'm so self conscience about my sloppy writing quality that I don't really feel comfortable with people I don't know reading it.
I did try to post to Anderson Cooper 360's blog but since he managed to go to Cairo yesterday so it's pointless.

Especially the union of Islamic Arabs and Christian Arabs. THAT is forward progress and the best forward progress ANY area of the world has seen in a long time. That is truely one of the greatest positive things I have seen and it moves me to tears to see that sign. That sign should NEVER disappear, even after this ordeal is over.

It's an amazing thing I agree but I urge everyone to know that this has always been there in Egypt, all the government staged clashes occur only among uneducated low classes in villages and cities that are based and formed around farming, with all due respect to farmers they are easy preys to shit mongers on both the Islamic and Christian side, we always underestimate the power of influence on an uneducated unread mind, imagine someone like a fellow poster here that's obsessed with pointing out the menacing side of the other religion on your safety and stability, rest assured there a Muslim version of these guys too, a lot of them with convictions in what they're saying and scare even themselves, the constant concentrated charging of these thoughts and fears creates monsters, we will always have them, they're just subsiding now because there are much bigger things at stake.

What exactly is the story with the internet over there?

Rerouting, every request is being sent to trash can, the ISP's performed it in a way that suggests there was at least one person working for each ISP that was trained for this moment long ago.

So do you not believe them when they say they won't do anything to deter protests?  

Not until they are told to, this has not yet turned into a coup d'etat, there's no high position on the inside that's supporting the revulotion, well there must be but they won't act on it cause they're too afraid they'll end up being charged with high treason and put against the wall if Mubarak doesn't fall.

[Chino]

Just came across this:

https://money.cnn.com/2011/01/31/technology/google_executive_missing_egypt/index.htm

[Progmetty]

It looks like the military has officially announced their intentions to let people protest:

Army endorses Egyptians' right to protest

In its first formal comment on events on Monday, the armed forces command issued a statement calculated for popular appeal. "The armed forces will not resort to use of force against our great people," it said, though it would stop looters.

"Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody."

Curious if this is bullshit or not, as if it's legitimate, it should be the end of the current state.

It's some bullshit with a side of extra shit, if any army in the world cannot have a mind of it's own it's the Egyptian army, these words are either dictated from a high command or were never said, maybe I'm too cynical? for the love of Rudess I hope so.

Are people actually protesting peacefully over there?

Yes the protesters are peaceful, they're 80% college and high school kids, as I mentioned before they're under so much pressure right now cause it keeps getting to them that the horrors their families and fellow Egyptians are suffering -at their homes from the looters and criminals- is their fault and they have the option to end it.
The protesters only turned violent in the instance the police started using excessive force.
With Jazeera out of the picture and Anderson Cooper being on the ground in the middle of Tahreer Square I'd recommend CNN, but if you want an Egyptian source of news there's one online newspaper that's still up -at least to my knowledge- and it's called Elmasry Elyoum (Egyptians Today) that has an English edition https://www.almasryalyoum.com/en ,  they're no CNN but they show and tell some events that CNN can't get to.

[EPICVIEW]

Im very concerned on so many fronts here.

[TheVoxyn]

I am extremely interested in how the situation is developing. Something on this scale doesn't occur too often and it's interesting to see how it progresses.

Also really like your updates metty, thanks  .

[The Texas Pirate!]

I hope your family stays safe and this regime change is for the better of all Egyptians. I hope the freedoms the people are looking for are found. I pray that this revolution ends peacefully. and that no freedoms are lost in the process.

[Progmetty]

Thanks TTP
For people interested in understanding more about Egyptian modern history; in 1974 two American journalists from ABC network went to Egypt and spent some time there observing and interviewing president Sadat, in this documentary they tell you what happens in Egypt since the revolution that turned the country from a monarchy to a republic to 1974, a year after the 6 October war.
The documentary is very interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GeGJtspdc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5DobX1w-5k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFzrEeeD5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CUOsqb2wn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxk2-LQSqmA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0gFmGvLX4M

Two years after the events stated in that documentary Sadat's popularity was struck hard due to the increasing bread and sugar price, the bread riots hit hard in 1977 and in the light of the Camp David accords which was basically Egypt spiting on all the Arab nations that trust her as their spokesman and defender; the radical nut jobs in Egypt started trying to hit him hard politically to shake his grip on power, he imprisoned all political opposition without distinction, later his wife said in interviews that he told her that this all temporary so that Israel don't back out of the agreements on the excuse of not trusting the stability of his command.
In 1981 Khaled Izlambouli wrote his sister a letter about killing the Egyptian Pharaoh before he went to take part in the October victory parade where Sadat was attending and this happened https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hsY6DHvod0
I think my post from the first page picks up after that.

[lordxizor]

While I'm excited that the Egyptian people may get the freedom they so desire, I have to admit that I'm sceptical that this will end up being anything but a fundamental Islamic takeover of the country. Despite the fact that it sounds like the majority of the people don't want it, it sounds like the Islamic Brotherhood is in position to take over if what's his name falls. I really hope that doesn't come to pass.

[zerogravityfat]

islamic brotherhood is also endorsing the mr. nuke, so i'm assuming he will be the leader, and he's secular.

[ack44]

Turkish PM told Mubarak to listen to his ppl 

[zerogravityfat]

Turkish PM should listen to his own people and get the fuck out.

[rumborak]

The US needs to take some side, seriously.

But more importantly, the Egyptian military should take even more side than they already did, to make clear that Mubarak has absolutely nobody supporting him anymore.

rumborak

[rumborak]

BTW, I love the fact that the internet was the facilitator in all this. No politicians negotiating something new or whatever, just plain citizens getting informed about what is possible and then taking action. Booyah, internet.

rumborak

[Progmetty]

islamic brotherhood is also endorsing the mr. nuke, so i'm assuming he will be the leader, and he's secular.

I don't understand this, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood wants to use nuclear arms? aside from the fact that Egypt does not have nuclear arms; they don't want war.

Turkish PM told Mubarak to listen to his ppl  

Yeah man that guy has been very popular in Egypt for the last couple years.

My brother made it to Tahrir square an hour ago, he just called me from there and I could hear the chants.
Nothing feels worse than not being able to be there right now, I'm trying not to fall into depression about it.