Author Topic: Can a religious opinion be wrong?  (Read 14976 times)

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Offline 73109

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2011, 07:40:45 PM »
Bosk, with all due respect, how is that not trolling? If some has the exact opposite view points, and I said what you just said, I would most certainly receive a warning and maybe even a ban.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2011, 07:41:43 PM »
It's called humor.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline 73109

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2011, 07:42:57 PM »
I stand by what I said. If I said it, there would be some form of hell to pay.

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2011, 07:45:43 PM »
If you called someone on this forum a sellout who you were friends with in real life and you were calling them out for flipflopping on an issue, I would likely chalk it up to friendly banter unless there was a reason not to.  If you choose to read it otherwise, I'm not sure what to say to you about that.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2011, 07:59:37 PM »
My views has changed some in the last year, so I probably won't be arguing for a young earth.

Lars Ulrich and James Hetfield were just telling me the other day they didn't feel like they had sold out completely yet and were looking for someone to teach them how.  Can I have your phone number?
Well, my snare drum actually sounds like a snare drum, and in the mid 90s I didn't suddenly have the urge to write bluesy songs. So they need to find somebody who has really sold out.

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2011, 08:56:05 PM »

wtf is the internet?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2011, 10:18:18 PM »
 >:(

Offline latvianxave8

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2011, 04:20:32 AM »
Gene mutation does not need to happen to cause evolution though.  Natural selection can cause evolution.  Bigger faster people, more likely to survive and pass on their genes for being bigger and faster eventually lead to bigger and faster people as small and slow die out.  That is natural selection which over time becomes evolution.

Gene mutation can also aid in evolution and cause evolution to occur.  It can be the catalyst, but is not necessary.

EDIT:  Unless gene mutation causes the differences in the first place.  Which might actually be true and why we have so many different types of people. 

Nailed it with your edit.  Mutations are what caused those people to be bigger and faster, and thus selected for.

No... evolution can theoretically happen without gene mutation. You know why? Because evolution doesn't deal with the beginning of life, it deals with life once it is already there. If a ton of life forms were created spontaneously (by God, or whatever you choose), then no gene mutation is needed for evolution to occur. Evolution is not by itself a process, but the result of a process. This process is natural selection. Do I need to explain this?

Lets say a three species of animal were created spontaneously by God. None of them experience any gene mutation, ever. Evolution can still occur, in this fashion. There are placed in an environment in which a species that has thumbs would have the upper hand.. The three species are an ape, a mole, and a mouse. To start the population out, we will say that it is 40% Ape, 20% Mole, and 40% mouse. Lets wait 200 million years and check the populations again.

The population is now 90% ape, 8% mole, and 2% mouse. This population has undergone evolution, but no gene mutations had occurred.

Even though this scenario is by far unlikely (as creation is virtually impossible), do you still at least get what I am trying to say?

I haven't said anything about creation or the origin of life.  But the basis for evolution is differences in DNA.  The source of differences in DNA is genetic mutation.  There can be no apes, moles, or mice unless they genetically diverged somewhere along the phylogenetic tree.  In order for this to happen, their DNA had to change (mutate), to give them different attributes.  Then some mutations are selected for and against.

-J

Whether or not you actually brought up the origin of life is not important. I just gave a clear example of how evolution can occur with NO gene mutation what so ever. There CAN be apes, moles, and mice if they were not genetically diverged along the phylogenetic. Do I believe that they were created in real life? No. Were they created in my scenario? Yes.

Offline The Texas Pirate!

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2011, 05:58:48 AM »
Can religious opinions be wrong? Yes they can be wrong, they may also be right. I have many opinions that some would call wrong, but opinions are exactly that Opinions. any thing can be wrong, is it wrong to have an opinion that differs from 99% of the prevelant opinions? No, everyone has free will to belive, or to disbelieve anything they wish. are those who hold the major percentage of the opinion right just because they are more? does might make right. A thousand years ago everyone knew the world was flat and the sun and all the planets revolved arround the world. this was a scientific fact, a thousand years ago. what facts that we know now will be shown to be fallacies a thousand years from now? How can one  say to another you are wrong, or you are right? when even a renownd scientist once stated "Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very realistic one". when one can coe allong and prove without a shadow of a dought, that there is no God, then I will just find something else to beleive in. Untill that day comes I will continue to belive, and till my dying day I shall profes his greatness with my last breath.

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Offline Zook

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2011, 10:31:55 AM »
I didn't know the MIB believed in god. And is there anyone here that actually believes that dinosaurs were fake?

Offline j

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2011, 12:07:38 PM »
Quote
Quote
No... evolution can theoretically happen without gene mutation. You know why? Because evolution doesn't deal with the beginning of life, it deals with life once it is already there. If a ton of life forms were created spontaneously (by God, or whatever you choose), then no gene mutation is needed for evolution to occur. Evolution is not by itself a process, but the result of a process. This process is natural selection. Do I need to explain this?

Lets say a three species of animal were created spontaneously by God. None of them experience any gene mutation, ever. Evolution can still occur, in this fashion. There are placed in an environment in which a species that has thumbs would have the upper hand.. The three species are an ape, a mole, and a mouse. To start the population out, we will say that it is 40% Ape, 20% Mole, and 40% mouse. Lets wait 200 million years and check the populations again.

The population is now 90% ape, 8% mole, and 2% mouse. This population has undergone evolution, but no gene mutations had occurred.

Even though this scenario is by far unlikely (as creation is virtually impossible), do you still at least get what I am trying to say?

I haven't said anything about creation or the origin of life.  But the basis for evolution is differences in DNA.  The source of differences in DNA is genetic mutation.  There can be no apes, moles, or mice unless they genetically diverged somewhere along the phylogenetic tree.  In order for this to happen, their DNA had to change (mutate), to give them different attributes.  Then some mutations are selected for and against.

-J

Whether or not you actually brought up the origin of life is not important. I just gave a clear example of how evolution can occur with NO gene mutation what so ever. There CAN be apes, moles, and mice if they were not genetically diverged along the phylogenetic. Do I believe that they were created in real life? No. Were they created in my scenario? Yes.

:facepalm:

What the hell?  Why don't you just admit that you were mistaken instead of going to such ridiculous lengths to try to avoid it. :lol ::)

-J

Offline Ħ

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2011, 12:22:21 PM »
I didn't know the MIB believed in god. And is there anyone here that actually believes that dinosaurs were fake?
Young Earth creationists don't necessarily say that dinosaurs are "fake," just that they were in existence much later than evolutionists date them.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline 73109

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2011, 01:04:50 PM »
What about carbon dating?

Offline Ħ

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2011, 01:14:49 PM »
I think a lot of them see carbon dating as flawed.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline 73109

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2011, 01:15:04 PM »
How?

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2011, 01:17:47 PM »
I didn't know the MIB believed in god. And is there anyone here that actually believes that dinosaurs were fake?
Young Earth creationists don't necessarily say that dinosaurs are "fake," just that they were in existence much later than evolutionists date them.
They were also vegetarians and lived contemporaneously with humans, according to most young earthers. Honestly, I've always found that a bit hard to swallow, even when I was a YEC.

Offline 73109

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2011, 01:18:37 PM »
Yeah...no. That makes no sense.

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2011, 05:09:28 PM »
I used to be a YEC and thought evolution was a conspiracy. Then I read a book by an Evangelical Christian that explained how every YEC argument was baseless. About the same time, one of my professors who was a YEC made a remarkable case, saying: "If God creates a tree, would the tree have tree rings? Yes. In other words, it would have the appearance of age. So when God created the universe, it's obvious that it had the appearance of age. Case closed." If you know anything about tree rings, you'll see how LOL that argument is. After realizing that YEC was nonsense, I was pretty much set on the downhill path to become a postmodernist good-for-nothing  :)

wtf is the internet?

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2011, 06:10:19 PM »
I used to be a YEC and thought evolution was a conspiracy. Then I read a book by an Evangelical Christian that explained how every YEC argument was baseless. About the same time, one of my professors who was a YEC made a remarkable case, saying: "If God creates a tree, would the tree have tree rings? Yes. In other words, it would have the appearance of age. So when God created the universe, it's obvious that it had the appearance of age. Case closed." If you know anything about tree rings, you'll see how LOL that argument is. After realizing that YEC was nonsense, I was pretty much set on the downhill path to become a postmodernist good-for-nothing  :)

A Professor made that case?
You need to get your tuition back!  :lol
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Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2011, 07:07:04 PM »
Well, it was in a Bible class. But yea, there were some pretty silly ideas represented at my uni.

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Offline latvianxave8

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2011, 07:40:57 PM »
Quote
Quote
No... evolution can theoretically happen without gene mutation. You know why? Because evolution doesn't deal with the beginning of life, it deals with life once it is already there. If a ton of life forms were created spontaneously (by God, or whatever you choose), then no gene mutation is needed for evolution to occur. Evolution is not by itself a process, but the result of a process. This process is natural selection. Do I need to explain this?

Lets say a three species of animal were created spontaneously by God. None of them experience any gene mutation, ever. Evolution can still occur, in this fashion. There are placed in an environment in which a species that has thumbs would have the upper hand.. The three species are an ape, a mole, and a mouse. To start the population out, we will say that it is 40% Ape, 20% Mole, and 40% mouse. Lets wait 200 million years and check the populations again.

The population is now 90% ape, 8% mole, and 2% mouse. This population has undergone evolution, but no gene mutations had occurred.

Even though this scenario is by far unlikely (as creation is virtually impossible), do you still at least get what I am trying to say?

I haven't said anything about creation or the origin of life.  But the basis for evolution is differences in DNA.  The source of differences in DNA is genetic mutation.  There can be no apes, moles, or mice unless they genetically diverged somewhere along the phylogenetic tree.  In order for this to happen, their DNA had to change (mutate), to give them different attributes.  Then some mutations are selected for and against.

-J

Whether or not you actually brought up the origin of life is not important. I just gave a clear example of how evolution can occur with NO gene mutation what so ever. There CAN be apes, moles, and mice if they were not genetically diverged along the phylogenetic. Do I believe that they were created in real life? No. Were they created in my scenario? Yes.

:facepalm:

What the hell?  Why don't you just admit that you were mistaken instead of going to such ridiculous lengths to try to avoid it. :lol ::)

-J

Because I wasn't mistaken? I was actually correct when I said there is a debate between whether natural selection is entirely responsible for evolution or if it is only a part of the process?

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2011, 08:20:44 PM »
Huh? What besides natural selection is an explanation for evolution?

wtf is the internet?

Offline latvianxave8

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2011, 08:25:08 PM »
Huh? What besides natural selection is an explanation for evolution?

Well, thats the debate. On one side we have people who say natural selection is the only necessary component for evolution. On the other side we have people who say you also need things like dna mutation, genetic drift, etc.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2011, 09:18:04 PM »
There is no argument that both natural selection and genetic drift contribute to evolution.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline j

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2011, 09:20:48 PM »
There is no argument that both natural selection and genetic drift contribute to evolution.

And DNA mutation.  This debate must be raging within his mind or something. :lol

-J

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2011, 09:32:04 PM »
There is no argument that both natural selection and genetic drift contribute to evolution.

And DNA mutation.  This debate must be raging within his mind or something. :lol

-J

I wouldn't say DNA mutation causes evolution.  Mutation causes drift and selection, which in turn cause evolution.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline j

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2011, 11:17:42 PM »
Semantics, dude.  Species can't evolve, none of that stuff (selection, drift) can occur, without genetic variation.  Genetic variation arises through mutations.

-J

Offline Ħ

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2011, 11:23:45 PM »
I see what you're saying.  I'm just saying it's redundant to include DNA mutation as a part of evolution because it is already included within the other two causes.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline latvianxave8

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2011, 09:30:38 AM »
There is no argument that both natural selection and genetic drift contribute to evolution.

And DNA mutation.  This debate must be raging within his mind or something. :lol

-J

No... it's def. going on within the scientific community..

Give me a little bit, i'll be back with a link of the video I saw in which Richard Dawkins (evolutionary biologist and author) discusses the different debates going on about evolution.

EDIT: Here ya go, it starts at around 2:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr5mBuZZhis&feature=related
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 09:49:48 AM by latvianxave8 »

Offline j

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2011, 12:59:36 PM »
Wow, that lady is a moron. :lol

Anyway, I don't see how you concluded that Dawkins was drawing a distinction between natural selection and DNA mutation with his comments.  All he said was there is debate as to how important natural selection is to evolution (although I'm not aware of any such debate).  DNA mutation is inherent to the theory of natural selection, the two can't be divorced.

-J

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2011, 07:26:24 PM »
That video... watching those kinds of arguments only makes people dumber. They're both just trying to come up with phrases that make them appear to have the upper hand, fighting fire with fire.

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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2011, 07:52:50 PM »
^ Magma ftw.

Anyways, that person sounds like an IRL troll. If they aren't, then they're just plain ignorant.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2011, 10:07:32 PM »
I stand by what I said. If I said it, there would be some form of hell to pay.
Chill out. I can take a joke. Besides, I'm right about the issue. It all balances out in the end. 

Offline The Texas Pirate!

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2011, 11:02:40 PM »
 :lol
I didn't know the MIB believed in god. And is there anyone here that actually believes that dinosaurs were fake?
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