Why do you still believe in a god?

[TheVoxyn]

Not trying to insult anyone or to attract flaming, but I seriously have a hard time understanding it. I find it hard to find a reason why someone would believe in a god or in a ‘holy’ book. And what are your reasons for believing in it?

I have multiple reasons why I find it hard to understand someone believing in a god. The first is all the logical fallacies that comes with it. I could name a couple out of the top of my head without even thinking too deeply about it (the most annoying being, bible is the word of god -> god exists -> because it is in the bible).

The second is that I have a hard time believing in something that there is no proof whatsoever for. Why should I dedicate my life to something that might not even exist? Why should I be totally irrational and believe in something that is probably not there?

Third, there are so much contradictions in the text. If there was a god, why is his work full of loopholes, mistakes and non-sensical stuff?

I could name a couple of other reasons but I don’t want to look like I’m just bashing religion. If you think about it, it’s very understandable why religion used to be important. People needed to be able to explain things. And it was a really good way for a country or a group of people (the church) to gain power and influence over the people. But I don’t see why in this modern age of science, information and individualism, someone can still take in all the facts and arguments and still believe in a god. Please enlighten me to the reasons why.

[yeshaberto]

the most simple answer is by looking out my window.  whether it is the wonder of the human body, the majestic, infinite space or the water cycle (and 10 trillion other sophisticated marvels), I am left with no other option.

[TheVoxyn]

the most simple answer is by looking out my window.  whether it is the wonder of the human body, the majestic, infinite space or the water cycle (and 10 trillion other sophisticated marvels), I am left with no other option.

Then why is the human body perfectly explainable with science and evolution? Or why do we have an appendix? Most of the other things can be explained through science or have other convincing theories supporting them and argueing against a creator. I can see why someone would think it has to be thought out because it works so well (or in incomprehendable for a human brain) but I think with science explaining more and more, it becomes a lot harder to keep a good argument for faith in a creator. Wind used to be amazing, no-one understood it. Now it had a perfect explanation and it's pretty hard to equate wind to a god. Don't you think this progress will keep on going and erasing away any need for a god?

[Phantasmatron]

Wind used to be amazing, no-one understood it. Now it had a perfect explanation and it's pretty hard to equate wind to a god. Don't you think this progress will keep on going and erasing away any need for a god?

Whether a god exists or not, there will always be a need for a god.  Explaining the universe isn't the only thing he's good for.  He helps people cope with difficulty, and no matter how good science gets at explaining things, there will always be people going through rough patches who can use the comfort that belief in a loving omnipotent being provides.

[TheVoxyn]

Wind used to be amazing, no-one understood it. Now it had a perfect explanation and it's pretty hard to equate wind to a god. Don't you think this progress will keep on going and erasing away any need for a god?

Whether a god exists or not, there will always be a need for a god.  Explaining the universe isn't the only thing he's good for.  He helps people cope with difficulty, and no matter how good science gets at explaining things, there will always be people going through rough patches who can use the comfort that belief in a loving omnipotent being provides.

. Overlooked that. I guess it's always good to have someone to vent to/get comfort from. I think most people can have friends or family to turn on as well, but having the feeling that there is always someone for you might be good. I personally couldn't do it (to find comfort in something that may well not be exist) but I can understand why people could.

[Ħ]

Plus, without a god, there is really no point to life because we are all going to cease to exist someday.  Sure, existentialists say that you ought to live in the moment, but ultimately there will be no point because you won't have any memories to enjoy when you're dead because you're dead.

[Adami]

Plus, without a god, there is really no point to life because we are all going to cease to exist someday.  Sure, existentialists say that you ought to live in the moment, but ultimately there will be no point because you won't have any memories to enjoy when you're dead because you're dead.

Finite =/= worthless.

You're creating the standards of worthwhile yourself.

[TheVoxyn]

Plus, without a god, there is really no point to life because we are all going to cease to exist someday.  Sure, existentialists say that you ought to live in the moment, but ultimately there will be no point because you won't have any memories to enjoy when you're dead because you're dead.

Why should there be a point in life? Seems to be a bit forced to create a point in life just to be able to have a point. I can see the reasoning god exists (for other reasons) -> there is a point but not god exists -> otherwise there is no point.

[j]

I think there are plenty of reasons one might believe in God, some to do with awe of the universe or coping with hard times, as others have said.  But whether or not God, if he exists, is the God of the Christian scriptures is another question altogether.

-J

[TheVoxyn]

I think there are plenty of reasons one might believe in God, some to do with awe of the universe or coping with hard times, as others have said.  But whether or not God, if he exists, is the God of the Christian scriptures is another question altogether.

-J

I think there was a thread about that a while back (how do you know if your god is the right one, or something to that extend).

[sneakyblueberry]

I believe in God because I've seen him move through people in a way the can't be explained away by science, or anything else for that matter.

[Adami]

I believe in God because I've seen him move through people in a way the can't be explained away by science, or anything else for that matter.

Dunno, LSD might explain some of it.

What do you mean you've seen him move through people?

[Jamesman42]

Because He exists, duh.


But really, because His existence makes the most sense in the grand scheme of things. It seems far too unlikely, with the fine tuning of our universe, that there wasn't a design to be had in how the "constants" of the universe are.

Throw in the existence of the soul, which I believe helps account for self-awareness, and we're good.


Also, personally, for me, because I love math with a passion, I sometimes think to myself how such a dynamic system of rules that can describe everything in our universe can work so good in itself. Of course we can say we made the rules for that system, but we didn't make the actual system; we just define it with things like numbers and "+", "-", and so forth. We discovered it (and still are), and it always works. That just shows me that there is some design there, and design implies designer.


Also, I don't believe in God based on feelings, but that isn't to say that now I don't "give" Him my feelings.

[ack44]

I think a better question would be why God is still considered to be human-like, or is said to be a person... or why God is considered to be something totally separate from his creation, even now when we no longer believe that deities cause natural phenomenon.

[Ħ]

Speaking of math, Jamesman, what's that math artwork type stuff that people use in arguments for God?  You know, where everything's all swirly and stuff?

[j]

But really, because His existence makes the most sense in the grand scheme of things. It seems far too unlikely, with the fine tuning of our universe, that there wasn't a design to be had in how the "constants" of the universe are.

Also, personally, for me, because I love math with a passion, I sometimes think to myself how such a dynamic system of rules that can describe everything in our universe can work so good in itself. Of course we can say we made the rules for that system, but we didn't make the actual system; we just define it with things like numbers and "+", "-", and so forth. We discovered it (and still are), and it always works. That just shows me that there is some design there, and design implies designer.

A "top down" view of the universe causes many people to buy into these arguments, but they're mostly irrational.  I'm sure you have numerous other reasons for belief, but these in particular don't make much sense if you try to start without a bunch of extraneous assumptions.

-J

EDIT:

Speaking of math, Jamesman, what's that math artwork type stuff that people use in arguments for God?  You know, where everything's all swirly and stuff?

Like fractals?  I know there are other mathematical concepts that are cited for that reason, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  I hardly think they're sound arguments for God's existence, but they're pretty awesome either way.

[sonatafanica]

Plus, without a god, there is really no point to life because we are all going to cease to exist someday.  Sure, existentialists say that you ought to live in the moment, but ultimately there will be no point because you won't have any memories to enjoy when you're dead because you're dead.

I think this right here explains a great bit of it. The fear of death is a great big reason to believe in a god.

[Ħ]

Plus, without a god, there is really no point to life because we are all going to cease to exist someday.  Sure, existentialists say that you ought to live in the moment, but ultimately there will be no point because you won't have any memories to enjoy when you're dead because you're dead.

I think this right here explains a great bit of it. The fear of death is a great big reason to believe in a god.

Not so much a fear of death, but more of a desire to be prepared in case death is not the end.

But even if death is the end...why should you be frightened of dying?  There's no reason for it...you gotta go sometime.

[sonatafanica]

Plus, without a god, there is really no point to life because we are all going to cease to exist someday.  Sure, existentialists say that you ought to live in the moment, but ultimately there will be no point because you won't have any memories to enjoy when you're dead because you're dead.

I think this right here explains a great bit of it. The fear of death is a great big reason to believe in a god.

Not so much a fear of death, but more of a desire to be prepared in case death is not the end.

But even if death is the end...why should you be frightened of dying?  There's no reason for it...you gotta go sometime.

There are plenty of reasons to be afraid of dying. As for me, I don't believe in any sort of afterlife. So this little moment in time that I ever exist in all the time that will ever be is very, very important to me. And all the while, the only thing you ever absolutely know that's going to happen to you is that you will die one day. The mind can't really comprehend not existing, and it's a scary thought that not existing is all you're ever going to do after the clock ticks out.

But what if you didn't have to stop existing? And if you simply apologized for being a human and tried to be perfect from now on, you would die one day and go to a castle in the cosmos kicking it for all of eternity with the big guy. Whamoosh, you've got yourself a convenient excuse to not think about it.

[Ħ]

Well, that's not quite what I believe...actually not close at all.  But rather than be scared of death, I am actually quite excited for it, and it keeps me hopeful, and keeps me pressing on.

I don't wanna cause a theological debate since my views are in the minority, but I think that we will be given new bodies with many more abilities and capabilities than our earthly bodies, such as flight, speed, the ability to pass through solid objects, and simply the fact that we won't be bogged down with human flaws anymore and more...Not to mention, there's a whole new world to explore, and you can take the time to enjoy everything.

And what we do there is act in the heavenly govenment and establishment, maintaining our free will and judgment.  There's a verse somewhere that says we'll judge angels.

I know a lot of people believe in heaven as a mental state of eternal awe, and I don't wanna step on anyone's toes or cause disagreement, but my point in all that is this: can you see how a belief that heaven is a real, physical location in this universe, and that "it is really happening," is one that will get you to wake up every morning with energy, motivation, and excitement?  What was once fear and doubt has been replaced by knowledge, understanding, and purpose.

[Adami]

.............what?


I thought you were just a devout christian? Where does all the superman stuff come from?

[Ħ]

.............what?


I thought you were just a devout christian? Where does all the superman stuff come from?

Like I said, I don't wanna cause a theological argument or anything, but there's a verse that says our bodies will be made like Christ's glorified body.  You read post-resurrection stuff that Jesus does, like ascending out of the tomb, ascending into heaven, and appearing mulitple places in very short time spans (such as being in heaven at one moment, and talking to Paul the next).  So when it says our bodies will be made like his, I think that our bodies will have the same abilities.

Again, I don't wanna start a scuffle, I'm just saying why I personally get excited about believing in a god (which is what the topic is about).

[Adami]

As a loving agnostic, I'm fine with you believing anything you want.

[ack44]

Speaking of math, Jamesman, what's that math artwork type stuff that people use in arguments for God?  You know, where everything's all swirly and stuff?

Like fractals?  I know there are other mathematical concepts that are cited for that reason, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  I hardly think they're sound arguments for God's existence, but they're pretty awesome either way.

I'm guessing he's talking about the golden ratio. Fractals in nature are amazing and add a whole different dimension to natural selection.

[kirbywelch92]

Why do people insist upon saying the scientific proof of ANYTHING disproves God? Any increase in understanding on our part merely contributes to the grand scheme of creation IMO.

[sonatafanica]

Why do people insist upon saying the scientific proof of ANYTHING disproves God? Any increase in understanding on our part merely contributes to the grand scheme of creation IMO.

But what if that increase in understanding just further disproves creation?

I guess that becomes god's plan as well.

[kirbywelch92]

Why do people insist upon saying the scientific proof of ANYTHING disproves God? Any increase in understanding on our part merely contributes to the grand scheme of creation IMO.

But what if that increase in understanding just further disproves creation?

I guess that becomes god's plan as well.

I suppose that's fine, but I don't see any logical means of doing so. Perhaps that's the kind of Christian I am, but I'm of the mind that most anything that Science proves HAS to coincide with God's creation as anything that Science proves is pretty much 100% indisputable. And while the existence of God is disputable, I don't see anyway of proving it false.

[Jamesman42]

Speaking of math, Jamesman, what's that math artwork type stuff that people use in arguments for God?  You know, where everything's all swirly and stuff?

Like fractals?  I know there are other mathematical concepts that are cited for that reason, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  I hardly think they're sound arguments for God's existence, but they're pretty awesome either way.

I'm guessing he's talking about the golden ratio. Fractals in nature are amazing and add a whole different dimension to natural selection.

I mean, yeah, the Golden Ratio and fractals (which are based on imaginary numbers, making them cooler to me) are one of the highlights of the beauty of mathematics. Also, to brotherH, fractals is the answer.

I wouldn't say just fractals are a sound argument. I am saying that the whole of mathematics (which includes fractals, the golden ratio, the frequent occurrences of Pi in many different ways, the natural occurrence of "e" in many different ways, and so on) is such a perfect system that is natural, that it seems like it was made to be that way. At least to me, but that wasn't my main point anyway. I just so happen to be enamored with mathematics, so it's one of those bonuses for me. Heck, I like how some integrals work out in calculus with some little tricks.

Edit: Here is a fractal for ya:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEw8xpb1aRA&feature=related

[Perpetual Change]

I don't know whether I believe in Heaven or Hell, and I like sonatafanica find 'this moment' to still be of the utmost importance to me... but it's what 'this moment' means when looked at from the perspective of how the message of Jesus is still relevant to my life and my perspective that makes me feel most worthwhile. That's why I do still call myself a Christian and do accept Jesus as God. I may have my doubts; I may not be perfect. But the view I have of the world through my personal understand of Christianity and relationship with it is something that I can grow with; it enriches my life and enhances my outlook on things. At least in my opinion. Maybe you all just think I'm crazy though 

[ack44]

Speaking of math, Jamesman, what's that math artwork type stuff that people use in arguments for God?  You know, where everything's all swirly and stuff?

Like fractals?  I know there are other mathematical concepts that are cited for that reason, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  I hardly think they're sound arguments for God's existence, but they're pretty awesome either way.

I'm guessing he's talking about the golden ratio. Fractals in nature are amazing and add a whole different dimension to natural selection.

I mean, yeah, the Golden Ratio and fractals (which are based on imaginary numbers, making them cooler to me) are one of the highlights of the beauty of mathematics. Also, to brotherH, fractals is the answer.

I wouldn't say just fractals are a sound argument. I am saying that the whole of mathematics (which includes fractals, the golden ratio, the frequent occurrences of Pi in many different ways, the natural occurrence of "e" in many different ways, and so on) is such a perfect system that is natural, that it seems like it was made to be that way. At least to me, but that wasn't my main point anyway. I just so happen to be enamored with mathematics, so it's one of those bonuses for me. Heck, I like how some integrals work out in calculus with some little tricks.

Oops, yea, the swirly stuff is fractals, but I've never heard them used as proof for God. To me one of the most fascinating things about fractals is that it demonstrates how complex things are made up of simple things. So to say that they were meant to be that way seems to go against that revelation, since it implies that a mind, something insanely complex, is responsible for that simplicity.

[Jamesman42]

Speaking of math, Jamesman, what's that math artwork type stuff that people use in arguments for God?  You know, where everything's all swirly and stuff?

Like fractals?  I know there are other mathematical concepts that are cited for that reason, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.  I hardly think they're sound arguments for God's existence, but they're pretty awesome either way.

I'm guessing he's talking about the golden ratio. Fractals in nature are amazing and add a whole different dimension to natural selection.

I mean, yeah, the Golden Ratio and fractals (which are based on imaginary numbers, making them cooler to me) are one of the highlights of the beauty of mathematics. Also, to brotherH, fractals is the answer.

I wouldn't say just fractals are a sound argument. I am saying that the whole of mathematics (which includes fractals, the golden ratio, the frequent occurrences of Pi in many different ways, the natural occurrence of "e" in many different ways, and so on) is such a perfect system that is natural, that it seems like it was made to be that way. At least to me, but that wasn't my main point anyway. I just so happen to be enamored with mathematics, so it's one of those bonuses for me. Heck, I like how some integrals work out in calculus with some little tricks.

Oops, yea, the swirly stuff is fractals, but I've never heard them used as proof for God. To me one of the most fascinating things about fractals is that it demonstrates how complex things are made up of simple things. So to say that they were meant to be that way seems to go against that revelation, since it implies that a mind, something insanely complex, is responsible for that simplicity.

Well, a complex mind can make simple things. Besides, the way to generate a fractal is, while simple, not simple enough to be intuitive. It was a surprise to anyone who first saw it (I believe Mandelbrot was).

Besides, the fractal is cited for its relative and unexpected beauty and infinite nature, not so much its complexity. I mean, unless you are saying the infinite way of zooming in on a fractal is complex, but I think I read that the infinity of it has to do with reiterations of a point on the graph, or something (my understanding of complex analysis is very vague, that will be in my Master's course). Point being, the complexity is not the argument for fractals, as far as I know. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd say it lies in the beauty and infinity of it.

[ack44]

Well, a complex mind can make simple things. Besides, the way to generate a fractal is, while simple, not simple enough to be intuitive. It was a surprise to anyone who first saw it (I believe Mandelbrot was).

I wasn't referring to generated fractals, rather self-similarity that can be observed in plants, animals, clouds and even mountain ranges. But on how it isn't intuitive, it's interesting that fractal structures pop up in the structure African villages. Whether they were intentional or unintentional I don't know.

[sneakyblueberry]

I believe in God because I've seen him move through people in a way the can't be explained away by science, or anything else for that matter.

Dunno, LSD might explain some of it.

What do you mean you've seen him move through people?

Unless someone has devised an elaborate plan to contaminate the water so everyone who takes a sip of it on arrival turns into a shaking lunatic, I don't think LSD could play a part.

I dunno, I've seen people shake, rattle and roll under the spirit.  People that I know and love and have spent my life with.  People that would rather sit at the back of the church and twiddle their thumbs suddenly come under the power of God and act like complete retards. 

I've seen people manifest in demons too, heard peoples voice's change, seen their eyes change colour, seen them sit in the presence of God and scowl and eye up anyone who happens to look their way.  Freaky stuff.  If there's this evil shit going on and no light side to counter it, we're damned to spend our lives in bondage.

Its just something that you'd never understand until you've seen it for yourself.  You can mock and pull it apart all you like, but I've know what I've seen and you couldn't convince me otherwise.

[ack44]

I have no say over what you've seen or how it influenced the way you look at the world, but

and you couldn't convince me otherwise.

this is what I call the end of intelligence.

[The Texas Pirate!]

I shall beleive in God until some one can prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that there is no God.