Tateryche's (aka Queensryche post-DeGarmo) AMERICAN SOLDIER album

[Samsara]

bosk1 spurred an idea to talk about this record: American Soldier, by Tateryche (aka Queensryche post-DeGarmo).

bosk1 says that Jason Slater (the main songwriter and producer of American Soldier and Mindflap 2) really "got it" about the band's sound on American Soldier.

I actually agree to a certain extent. With the exception of the bonehead move of no lyrics on the second track, all the songs through Man Down really are cohesively, the closest thing to the original band since DeGarmo left. Unfortunately, it is Tate's horrendous singing that takes down the record, and in my opinion, the final three songs on the album conclude it at a whimpy, melodramatic pace, which is unfortunate (pretty much how Mindflap 2 ended).

Anyway, discuss Tateryche's American Soldier record. All its good and all its bad.

[bosk1]

bosk1 says that Jason Slater (the main songwriter and producer of American Soldier and Mindflap 2) really "got it" about the band's sound on American Soldier.

Well, kinda.  I think he "got it" as much as he could given that the band is in a completely different place now.  It's not "classic QR," but there are definitely moments where the band's original identity does manage to shine through.

I agree that Tate's singing really ruined what could have been a top-notch album.

Open II--I mean, Dead Man's Words is, IMO, the high point on the album. 

I have to disagree on the last three tracks.  I think both of the ballads are actually pretty good.  Emily's singing is a weakness on Home Again, but I can overlook that.  The problem, if any, with the ballads is just their back-to-back placement toward the end of the album.  It makes it just seem like the best of the album already happened, and now we're just going out on a long, mellow note that kills the album's momentum and makes me lose interest.  And that's a shame since, again, I think both songs are actually pretty good in their own right.  Just an arrangement problem, IMO.  To this day, I still don't get what your issue is with The Voice.  I think that's a terrific song.  I do, however, know a very good ear doctor in our area that I would be happy to recommend to you.

[KevShmev]

To demonstrate how little interest I have in anything new these guys have done lately, I have still never heard a second of this album, and when at a library last week to check out some CDs I wanted to hear, they had this, and I didn't even consider getting it (even though it would have been free to get and bring home).  I skipped over it and never gave it a second thought. 

[Samsara]

You're not missing much, Kev.

Although it does have a few good songs, including "A Dead Man's Words." And bosk1, it is NOT "Open II." It sounds nothing like it. You're the only one I have ever talked to that hears that. And I put both on, back to back, and can't figure out where the heck you are coming from.

I think the high points of American Soldier are very noteworthy.

At 30,000 Ft.
A Dead Man's Words
The Killer
Man Down!

The first two in that list in particular are classic Queensryche sounding. Great tracks. Emotional without being melodramatic, and while mid-tempo, just really convey those two situations the lyrics are speaking of well.

But I'm sorry bosky, Remember Me and Home Again are two of the lamest, gayest, pieces of trash (along with All the Promises from Mindflap 2) that have ever borne the "Queensryche" (although it is TATERYCHE) name.

I can live with the last track, but it sounds absolutely nothing like a Queensryche song. It's Zeppelin.

[KevShmev]

I figured I wasn't.

And the fact that you guys, probably the two biggest QR fans, can't even agree on what the good songs and bad songs are, just reinforces my belief that this album ain't worth wasting my time on.  If there was a consensus best song or two, maybe I'd wanna grab it, if only to get those possibly-worthy songs, but I ain't wasting my time on what is most likely a crap album, just in the hopes of maybe liking a song or two.  The risk is probably not worth the reward.

[King Postwhore]

I've owned these 2 cd's and they are on my I-pod but I could count on my hand the times I've listened to both cd's.

[Lowdz]

I did listen to this a few times initially but there's nothing to make me want to go back to it now.
the ballad with his daughter actually brought a lump to my throat (not in a bad way...) but I think that was the subject matter rather than the song or performance. It did actually put me in the headspace of someone seperated from their kids like that and having to deal with the prospect of maybe never seeing them again. Maybe I'm doing the song a disservice as it did elicit the response they were after.
I just don't get the comments about this being like QR of old. Not those first four albums anyway. It just isn't. There's elements of PL and albums after it maybe.
But how starnge that it takes an outside writer/producer to get a band sounding like it used to. Just goes to show how lost they are. Maybe they should give Peter Collins a ring.

[Samsara]

I figured I wasn't.

And the fact that you guys, probably the two biggest QR fans, can't even agree on what the good songs and bad songs are, just reinforces my belief that this album ain't worth wasting my time on.  If there was a consensus best song or two, maybe I'd wanna grab it, if only to get those possibly-worthy songs, but I ain't wasting my time on what is most likely a crap album, just in the hopes of maybe liking a song or two.  The risk is probably not worth the reward.

Actually bosk1 and I agree that "A Dead Man's Words" is the best song on American Soldier. And I think he probably likes "At 30,000 Ft." as well. If you do electronic music, pick those two tracks up. For two bucks, they are absolutely worth that.

[bosk1]

I like the music and the lyrics for At 30,000 Feet, but Geoff's strained, neck-up vocal delivery just destroys it for me.  Had Geoff not destroyed the song, it could easily be one of the best on the album.

[Samsara]

I like the music and the lyrics for At 30,000 Feet, but Geoff's strained, neck-up vocal delivery just destroys it for me.  Had Geoff not destroyed the song, it could easily be one of the best on the album.

I can get around it on that tune. I don't think it is nearly as bad as on some others. The music and solo (love the way Wilton played it to match up with the bombs) give it enough that I can look past it and it's not AS bad as some other tunes are, vocally.

There is another version of that in existence with Geoff singing it better. Unfortunately, only two men have it. Geoff Tate and Jason Slater. Although I have heard it. Much better.

[MykeHavoc]

Easily the best record since Promised Land. Although the initial spark of interest was soon killed off by their lousy antics with touring and such.

[Gadough]

I've never listened to this record. But I have to say, the reviews for it on metal-archives.com are funny because almost all of them are completely negative.

[skydivingninja]

I listened to the album twice and got rid of it.  I'll just stick with the bliss that is Empire and Mindcrime.

[jjrock88]

As with QR's last few records, there are some outstanding tracks to coincide with the subpar tracks

On American Soldier I love:

1- "Unafraid"
2- "At 30000 ft"
3- "A Dead Man's Words"
4- "Man Down"

[Darkes7]

My knowledge of Queensryche is definitely limited, but I have this album (long story, anyway I could choose between a few different bands I didn't know that well and ended up choosing this one) and I really enjoyed it. It's not a masterpiece or anything, but for me it was just a really nice hard rock/heavy metal album with some concept ambitions. The only serious problem I had is that I had expected it to be fairly dark after checking the lyrics before listening (which I really liked), and for me some songs, and especially The Killer suffers from that, are way too happy for what they actually are about. But that's just me.

My favourite songs were:
1. The Voice - amazing song, really, and even if the rest of the album sucked I wouldn't regret buying it just because of this one. I love the intro, love the atmosphere, and the monumental feel of the whole song. And the "don't be afraid" at the end is just... I can't describe it.
2. A Dead Man's Words - the song with probably the most progressive ambitions. Pretty complex and it's just great overall.
3. At 30000 Ft - it has a bit of Iron Maiden feel to it imo, and I really like it. It's probably the closest to what I had expected the album to be. I can just really feel it.

I don't know how are the other late Queensryche albums, but I really like this one. Actually, you just reminded me I haven't listened to it for a longer while. I know I definitely should familiarise myself with earlier albums, as what I've heard from them was pretty much all great.

I've never listened to this record. But I have to say, the reviews for it on metal-archives.com are funny because almost all of them are completely negative.

And this is a pretty good example why even though I really like MA and sometimes posted my own reviews there (been too lazy to write anything recently, but maybe...), some things there just piss me off. This album is a pretty good example of dumb elitists going rambo on an album because it's not what they wanted, and very little of the reviews actually point out any existing flaws.

[wolfking]

American Soldiar was pretty okay.  A lot of good tracks with good melodies.  I agree with the last few tracks bringing the album right down.

That song with his daughter, just makes me dry reach.

[Dittomist]

I don't think American Soldier is anywhere near as good as Operation Mindcrime II, but it has its moments. Obviously, Dead Man's Words is the highlight, as its easily the most intense track, and will remind you a little of Promised land. I actually think Home Again is a lovely song, but then again, I also liked All the Promises, so I guess I don't mind it when Queensryche is melodramatic.  Hundred Mile Stare, At 30,000 Feet, and Man Down are also decent tracks. Even the worst Queensryche albums have plenty to offer--enough to always keep me excited for a new one. I hope they will give us more info on the new album soon and provide some samples. 

[jjrock88]

I will take a poor Queensryche album over any of the mainstream crapola being passed off as rock/metal any day.  "Tribe" & "Operation Mindcrime 2" gave me hope that things were turning around for Queensryche; there were alot of great tracks on those albums.  However, the first day that I bought and listened to American Soldier, I finished the cd and was extremely disappointed.  I listened to the cd quite a few more times and became fond of half a dozen tracks.  But overall, I am still disappointed.  I still have hope that this new cd will turn the band around but I wouldn't bet any money.

[TAC]

Both OM2 and American Soldier have quite a number of great tracks, but Tate's vocals are a shadow of what he once could do. Even the mediocre tracks could be far lifted by classic Tate, but that's just not gonna happen.

Still, I actually thought American Soldier was decent and much better than I expected.

[Perpetual Change]

I saw this in Best Buy, considered buying it, didn't, went home and downloaded a few tracks, listened, immediately deleted them, and never looked back.

[Lowdz]

Off topic slightly, but maybe that is the way to get something from the last few releases. They were always going to suffer in comparison to those classic albums, but as I've listened to these albums since reading this topic with the view that it is Tateryche I'm listening to, I've certainly enjoyed them more.
HITNF and even Q2k I've enjoyed this way. At the time of these albums I was too close to it and too angry at the change in style to listen impartially. Recently my taste has changed and I've been enjoying things I previously didn't get (Floyd, Porcupine Tree). Maybe it's time to go back to side 1 of Hemispheres !

[Samsara]

*FOLKS, READ THIS. SERIOUSLY*

See, the thing is with me, every non-original lineup "Queensryche" (aka Tateryche) album has some good songs. They really do.

But specifically, Mindcrime II and American Soldier were strictly dictated by Geoff Tate. He told Jason Slater and Kelly Gray what he wanted, and they wrote the music for him (and on Mindcrime II, Slater worked with Mike Stone...Kelly wasn't back in the picture yet). Tate (who is not a MUSIC writer at all, just lyrics and vocal melodies he needs help on) decided what was on the album and what was not. That isn't how QUEENSRYCHE did albums. AT ALL. The band was never Whitesnake or Alice Cooper--a frontman led and directed band. It was the two guitar players writing the music, and then getting the rest of the band comfortable and inspired, and then the collaboration started.

Once Chris left, that stopped. Q2k was more of a band effort, and Kelly Gray (AT THE TIME) was *IN* the band, so technically that, TO ME, is a Queensryche record, albeit a non-original lineup, with the major songwriter being totally different (insert Kelly for Chris). It became a totally different sound and band with the major writer being different, but it was a self-contained BAND.

NOW, that is gone. Now it is just Geoff dictating what he wants to whoever will write it for him. THAT is a SOLO EFFORT. That isn't Queensryche. That is Geoff Tate using the Queensryche name to put forward what he wants as an artist.

The result in that fundamental shift of power was Mindcrime II (remember to disregard Hostage, as that was not originally meant for Mindcrime II but was forced into the "story") and American Soldier.

Albums that had good songs on it, but some others that were just totally NOT Queensryche and God awful.

If you re-label both those records as "Geoff Tate" (as I have done on my iPod) and consider them solo albums by Tate (and honestly folks, that IS what they are), I appreciate them much more.

But I lost all respect for the Tates and the butchering they have done to Queensryche's legacy. All "Queensryche" is now is a name to milk money off of for them. They use it to make a buck since they fucked up by doing that lame ass solo record of Geoff Tate's in 2002 that was totally something people were not expecting. On one hand, you respect that. On the other hand, it was incredibly short-sighted from a marketing and business perspective, and a lesson on what happens when you let your career be managed by an uneducated former stripper. Short sighted cash grabs that amounted to destroying the image and integrity of a band, and destroyed any chance of Tate having a successful solo career (ala Halford and Dickinson) under his own name.

So basically, folks need to pretend. Anything you hear coming from "Queensryche" these days is not at all the band writing and setting creative direction. It is Geoff Tate spearheading it, and having people outside the band write what he wants to hear. It is a complete solo project using the Queensryche name to cash in and get record deals, and bookings so promoters pay more.

Even the new Tateryche album this year...from what I know, it will be Jason Slater and Kelly Gray again writing the songs (Kelly works for the Tates as a sound guy/jack of all trades sorta guy), with a couple of songs by Rockenfield and maybe a couple by Jackson.  But the majority is all Slater and Gray.  With Tate dictating the whole thing from his own vision.

If you accept that everything under the "Queensryche" name is really Geoff Tate solo, then perhaps if you're like me, you can appreciate it a little bit more, even if you have to stomach seeing this stuff marketed under the name of a band that used to be dramatically creative and better (which has been long dead, and as folks know, Queensryche really was DeGarmo/Tate/Wilton/Rockenfield/Jackson -- in that order of importance).

[bosk1]

I agree with mostly everything you said.  The only real exception, for me, is that I don't need to put different labels on the music to change my perception of it.  I know Geoff revised history and recreated QR in his image after Chris left and a few initials trials of different things didn't work out.  I don't feel a need to re-revise it and repackage it with names that might make more logical sense.  It just is what it is.  To me, there was the Chris era, up through HITNF.  And then there was the post-Chris era, with everything after that (and, yes, I know he contributed significantly to Tribe, and I'm not arguing otherwise). 

But that's all really secondary.  Again, I completely agree with the above, and it's a great explantion for people who haven't really followed the band closely enough to know a lot of that.  The band has changed their fundamental approach to how they write music and function as a band, and I don't ever see it changing.  I think that ship has sailed and isn't coming back to port.

[El Barto]

Some of it was tolerable, but I just really dislike the Slater sound.  All of his material has a specific style which is one that I really don't want to hear from QR. 

Now I understand why I thought Hostage was actually a pretty good song.  Ya learn something new every day.

[Samsara]

I agree with mostly everything you said.  The only real exception, for me, is that I don't need to put different labels on the music to change my perception of it.  I know Geoff revised history and recreated QR in his image after Chris left and a few initials trials of different things didn't work out.  I don't feel a need to re-revise it and repackage it with names that might make more logical sense.  It just is what it is.  To me, there was the Chris era, up through HITNF.  And then there was the post-Chris era, with everything after that (and, yes, I know he contributed significantly to Tribe, and I'm not arguing otherwise).  

Tribe was the original lineup, (minus Losing Myshit which was  written by Mike Stone and Tate and only tossed on there after Chris left, and songs such as Justified and Hostage weren't done yet, which were intended for it). That said, when Chris left, it left an album unfinished, and so while I am absolutely entrenched that it should be and IS included as the original lineup (minus that one song), I see why some folks still hesitate to include it. But for me, and for accurate history sake, it really IS the original lineup with that one caveat.

But that's all really secondary.  Again, I completely agree with the above, and it's a great explantion for people who haven't really followed the band closely enough to know a lot of that.  The band has changed their fundamental approach to how they write music and function as a band, and I don't ever see it changing.  I think that ship has sailed and isn't coming back to port.

But that's the thing, bosky. It is NOT a "band" any longer. Not in the way that people perceived Queensryche up through Tribe. It is now more akin to how Whitesnake and Alice Cooper are done. Not really a band, but a frontman-directed unit with a band name.  The difference is, Whitesnake and Alice were always (for the most part) like that.

Now I understand why I thought Hostage was actually a pretty good song.  Ya learn something new every day.

Yeah, Hostage was written at the tale end of the Tribe sessions. The main riff was Eddie Jackson, and Michael and he wrote the song. The original solo was this shredding one (albeit short, about 12 seconds), and really kicked the song into an aggressive vibe to end. There was no courtroom bullshit sound effects, no slow harmonized solo. Lyrically, it was the same, but if you read the lyrics, the lyrics also match up well with what Tribe was all about. Read them. It connects with what the theme of Tribe connects with. It was forced into the Mindcrime scheme, and recorded professionally with Stone doing that harmonized slow solo and the sound effects put in to try and make it fit.

That song (the demo version) and the song "Justified" (on the Sign of the Times Best Of set) were meant for Tribe. Both just weren't done before Chris left, and Hostage wasn't done until right after the album was due to be given to the label.

[bosk1]

I agree with mostly everything you said.  The only real exception, for me, is that I don't need to put different labels on the music to change my perception of it.  I know Geoff revised history and recreated QR in his image after Chris left and a few initials trials of different things didn't work out.  I don't feel a need to re-revise it and repackage it with names that might make more logical sense.  It just is what it is.  To me, there was the Chris era, up through HITNF.  And then there was the post-Chris era, with everything after that (and, yes, I know he contributed significantly to Tribe, and I'm not arguing otherwise). 

Tribe was the original lineup, (minus Losing Myshit which was only tossed on there after Chris left, and songs such as Justified and Hostage weren't done yet, which were intended for it). That said, when Chris left, it left an album unfinished, and so while I am absolutely entrenched that it should be and IS included as the original lineup (minus that one song), I see why some folks still hesitate to include it. But for me, and for accurate history sake, it really IS the original lineup with that one caveat.

Again, I don't disagree.  It's just that the important distinction to you is "original lineup" vs. "nonoriginal lineup" (or whatever we agree to call all the other stuff).  That's perfectly valid.  But it's not the distinction that is important to me in classifying the eras of the band.  To me, the important distinction is pre-DeGarmo split vs. post-DeGarmo split.  That doesn't change or take away from what he did on Tribe.  I understand and acknowledge it.  But none of that changes the fact that, to me, everything from the EP through HITNF feels like a complete, high-quality, band effort and, to me, everything after (including Tribe) feels fragmented and inferior for a variety of different reasons (albeit reasons that are somewhat different when looking at it as Q2K vs. Tribe vs. OMII/Take Cover/American Soldier).  I'm not aguring the historical veracity of anything you said or the impact on the music.  I think you are 100% correct, and we've talked about it enough over the years and poured over the sources enough to know that we are in agreement and that the evidence backs up everything you said.

But that's all really secondary.  Again, I completely agree with the above, and it's a great explantion for people who haven't really followed the band closely enough to know a lot of that.  The band has changed their fundamental approach to how they write music and function as a band, and I don't ever see it changing.  I think that ship has sailed and isn't coming back to port.

But that's the thing, bosky. It is NOT a "band" any longer. Not in the way that people perceived Queensryche up through Tribe. It is now more akin to how Whitesnake and Alice Cooper are done. Not really a band, but a frontman-directed unit with a band name.  The difference is, Whitesnake and Alice were always (for the most part) like that.

Well, I'm not going to argue semantics with you.  I don't disagree with your main premise.  If you don't want to call it a band for the reasons you've stated, that's fine.  I get where you're coming from.  They certainly aren't THE band, but I will continue calling them A band because, technically, they are.  Yeah, they're incredibly disfunctional and it is exactly what you said:  a WS/Alice Cooper situation (tempted to throw modern "G&R" in there as well) where the frontman calls the shots, has someone else write the material, and has the band members learn and play their parts.  It's not a "band" in the sense that we'd like it to be, and I don't begrudge you not wanting to acknowledge them as a band.  I don't disagree with that.  But I'm not going to struggle with the semantic game of coming up with a different term to describe them when the word "band" suffices for all intents and purposes.  It's like when a couple has become completely separate and disfunctional and they say things like "this isn't a marriage anymore."  Well, technically, if they aren't divorced, it is a "marriage."  We all know what they mean, and playing the game of "what should we label it as" doesn't really do anything to further the discussion.  We agree on the principles.  The label doesn't matter to me. 

[Samsara]

I totally get where you are coming from my friend. With apologies about using a double-negative, we don't disagree. It's just (like you said), some distinctions I draw and semantics I put out there just aren't as important to you, as they are to me. Totally get it and understand what you are saying too.   

I just really wish the name of the band wouldn't have been dragged through the mud and the legacy tarnished because of the Tates. That is WHY I draw the distinction, to try and preserve what once WAS, so people see what once WAS, was heads and shoulders above what now exists, and WHY.