Westboro Baptist Church

[El Barto]

Why should they be any different than a political rally or a Judas Priest concert?  They're just events, and as long as these assholes don't disrupt the event, they're entitled to make their statement. 

[Perpetual Change]

Have you ever watched videos of their protests? I'm pretty sure yelling at people in the parking lot on the way to see their 9 year old daughter buried can be considered "disruption." The way you're posting makes it sound like you think they just stand their quietly tucked away with their signs.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I split the topic because the discussion is totally moving away from the original intended post.

But feel free to keep discussing the WBC

I'm not sure how I feel about their supposed 'free speech'

[El Barto]

That was really confusing.

Have you ever watched videos of their protests? I'm pretty sure yelling at people in the parking lot on the way to see their 9 year old daughter buried can be considered "disruption." The way you're posting makes it sound like you think they just stand their quietly tucked away with their signs.

The only videos I've seen showed them fairly peaceful.  I just perused Youtube for WBC videos, and found nothing but vids of people proudly harassing them.  Gotta say, aside from their message, the WBC folk seem a helluva lot more civilized than the people who show up to counter-protest them. 

But the rules are pretty clear.  A disruption has to be something that prevents the event from taking place.  Just making somebody uncomfortable is not an excuse to abridge free speech.  Fuck, we'd never be able to draw that line.   

[Perpetual Change]

Gotta say, aside from their message, the WBC folk seem a helluva lot more civilized than the people who show up to counter-protest them. 

Well then there's no chance of us seeing eye-to-eye on any of this. I guess I'm done here   

[orcus116]

The most appalling thing is when they bring children to their protests and shove "thankg god for dead troops" signs in their hands. Those kids probably have no idea what they're in the middle of.

[hefdaddy42]

Why should they be any different than a political rally or a Judas Priest concert?  They're just events, and as long as these assholes don't disrupt the event, they're entitled to make their statement. 

Why?

[El Barto]

Why should they be any different than a political rally or a Judas Priest concert?  They're just events, and as long as these assholes don't disrupt the event, they're entitled to make their statement. 

Why?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.  I really can't believe I'm the only one here who sees the importance of it. 

[Adami]

Oh no I agree with you Bart.

[hefdaddy42]

But they aren't assembling peacefully to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.   

[bosk1]

Oh no I agree with you Bart.

I don't.  The right is not unlimited, and there are exceptions like the one rumborak has mentioned.  It's just that, with the courts in the pockets of the politicians, who are in the pockets of special interest groups and terrorist organizations like the ACLU, so generally, trying to have the courts actually apply those rules doesn't go well.

And:

But they aren't assembling peacefully to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.   

[orcus116]

Also I'm wondering if their gatherings are truly peaceful. Sure they're not verbally shouting obscenities and the like but the second they write "FAG" or "THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS" on signs that, to me, eliminates any kind of peaceful connotations from their beliefs or message. They aren't attacking a government issue or the like, they're specifically targeting families to destroy any kind of dignity those people have towards the family member they have lost. I'm sorry but that is fucking unacceptable.

[Adami]

Bosk and Hef. What about people who protest outside of abortion clinics? Should they be banned?

[hefdaddy42]

Bosk and Hef. What about people who protest outside of abortion clinics? Should they be banned?

I don't think so.  The reason those people are protesting is basically because they think that Roe v. Wade should be overturned.  That is a form of petitioning the Government.  So as long as they remain peaceable, I think they are OK.

[Adami]

Bosk and Hef. What about people who protest outside of abortion clinics? Should they be banned?

I don't think so.  The reason those people are protesting is basically because they think that Roe v. Wade should be overturned.  That is a form of petitioning the Government.  So as long as they remain peaceable, I think they are OK.

I dunno. I honestly don't think the reason they're petitioning is to over turn RVW. I think it's to scare people into not getting abortions. and yes it's just as peaceful as WBC.

[hefdaddy42]

That's one way to look at it.  But at the same time, WBC isn't protesting anything.  They are just assholes who are loud.

[Adami]

That's one way to look at it.  But at the same time, WBC isn't protesting anything.  They are just assholes who are loud.

......maybe they're protesting allowing gays into the military? Maybe they're protesting tolerance laws?


I disdain them as much as you do, but aside from being more random, I don't see how they're that different than anti-abortion protesters holding up pictures of destroyed fetus's and screaming to people going in that they're going to hell and murdering children and stuff.

[Orbert]

The moment they start screaming at people, they are no longer assembling peacefully, and if they are not specifically petitioning the government for something, then they should be guilty of being a public nuisance.  And that is not protected speech.

Even if they remained completely silent during their assembly, their signs don't say "Don't allow gays in the military" or anything directly related to the government.  They say shit like "God hates fags."  They are not petitioning the government.  They are a public nuisance, nothing more.

[Adami]

The moment they start screaming at people, they are no longer assembling peacefully, and if they are not specifically petitioning the government for something, then they should be guilty of being a public nuisance.  And that is not protected speech.

Even if they remained completely silent during their assembly, their signs don't say "Don't allow gays in the military" or anything directly related to the government.  They say shit like "God hates fags."  They are not petitioning the government.  They are a public nuisance, nothing more.

I agree. I also haven't seen people protest an abortion clinic with signs that say "Over turn Roe V Wade!"

They have pictures of dead babies and signs telling us not to have abortions. I seriously can't see how one should be banned but the other is fine.

[El Barto]

I'm still fuzzy on what makes their actions subject to censorship according to you guys.  Where is the line?  All I'm seeing is "free speech is great, unless I don't like it or it makes people feel uncomfortable.  Then it should be prohibited."

I don't like people coming to my door to proselytize, but I deal with it.  I don't like seeing placards with aborted foetus, but I deal with it.  I don't like people telling me I'm going to hell because I like good music, but I deal with it. 

Most of the people here would normally be among the first to say that none of us have the right to live an annoyance free life.  I don't get what makes this thing so special. 

[73109]

El Barto is right. These dudes are annoying, scum, and are a poor excuse for humans, but they have every right to do what they want to do as long as it is a "peaceful protest."

[Perpetual Change]

Most of the people here would normally be among the first to say that none of us have the right to live an annoyance free life.  I don't get what makes this thing so special. 

Some things should be kept sacred. Like the funeral of a little girl who was shot.

For some reason, though I'm all for free speech I'm totally against the idea that people should be allowed to protest how great the killer was at that little girl's funeral. And honestly, I don't really give a shit if that's at odds with the rest of my personal philosophical position.

[7StringedBeast]

What about protesting in a public forum.  They have the right to do this protest in a public forum, but not at a funeral.  A funeral is not a public forum.  They have no right to be at the funeral.  I don't know how far away they will be kept, but it should be out of range of the funeral.  Funeral goers shouldn't have to see or here those fools.  If they need to protest so bad they can do it in town square. 

No one can see why its wrong and objectionable for people to hold a protest at a funeral?  I mean, really?  Why should their right to protest at a funeral be protected?  A funeral is a lot different than a god damned judas priest concert.  A LOT different.

Also, abortion is a pretty big topic in politics.  So holding some kind of rally outside a clinic makes logical sense for them to get their point across.  As long as they aren't verbally abusing the people going in, and being peaceful, I don't see a problem with it despite it being a dick thing to do.  But the fact is, its a political issue.  It has relevance.

Where is the relevance for the WBC to protest a funeral?  I would really like to have this answered.

[orcus116]

I'm curious if anyone has any experience seeing protesters in front of an abortion clinic. Assuming the type of people that would show up with graphic signs I can just imagine the verbal torture they spew at the people that go in and out of the place.

[Adami]

I'm curious if anyone has any experience seeing protesters in front of an abortion clinic. Assuming the type of people that would show up with graphic signs I can just imagine the verbal torture they spew at the people that go in and out of the place.

I have. I didn't go in, so they left me alone, and no was going in at the time so they had no one to yell at, but there were about 30-40 people all out there with tons of horrible signs.

[Fuzzboy]

Free speech is great and I love it. This is just one of the shitty side effects of it. If we want actual free speech, we're just gonna have to deal with the fact that assholes like the WBC take advantage of it and use it for their crap, just like you can take advantage of it and use it for a noble cause.

But of course, there is nothing I would love more than to find out these folks all somehow magically disappeared, but whatever.

[El Barto]

Free speech is great and I love it. This is just one of the shitty side effects of it. If we want actual free speech, we're just gonna have to deal with the fact that assholes like the WBC take advantage of it and use it for their crap, just like you can take advantage of it and use it for a noble cause.

But of course, there is nothing I would love more than to find out these folks all somehow magically disappeared, but whatever.

You could certainly call it a shitty side effect of free speech.  I actually see it as rather encouraging.  One of the few things I still admire about this country is the fact that people are allowed to be assholes as long as they're harmless in their efforts. 

[orcus116]

How is this not harmless? They're championing the fact that someone murdered a girl simply because her family was Roman Catholic. How is that not torment to the family?

[Adami]

How is this not harmless? They're championing the fact that someone murdered a girl simply because her family was Roman Catholic. How is that not torment to the family?

Because it's physically harmless. Pissing people off is legal. If it weren't, there wouldn't be any lawyers left to defend all the lawyers going to jail.

No offense bosk.

[bosk1]

I can't disagree with you.

[Adami]

I can't disagree with you.

I actually wasn't refering to lawyers when I wrote it, but I thought of that line about them and figured it was too good to waste.

[bosk1]

As I was reading it, I knew the sentence was going to end with either "lawyers" or "drummers."  Either way.

[Perpetual Change]

Verbally slapping someone the face isn't freedom of speech. I agree with 7 String. Let them do this in a public forum. Not a funeral.

[Adami]

Verbally slapping someone the face isn't freedom of speech. I agree with 7 String. Let them do this in a public forum. Not a funeral.

Yes it is freedom of speech, and technically speaking....they're outside of a funeral. They're on public property as far as I'm aware.

[Perpetual Change]

Well good. Maybe they'll get hit by vehicle or something.