The Official Football (Soccer) Thread (v. It's starting again!)

[Zantera]

Watching Man United these days is like watching paint dry. If LvG isn't sacked before New Years then it's very clear that nobody gives a shit about our season. We need to get on Ancelotti before someone else does, let's not get another Klopp-story. Liverpool were smart enough to make their change early on, when they saw that it wouldn't work, and I think they will finish above us unless we make a change.

[Train of Naught]

That whole LvG hype after worlds was pretty stupid aswell tbh, I don't see how switching in a goalkeeper who only practiced stopping penalties coming into the world cup for a goalkeeper who is known for bad performance regarding penalties is a "legendary move".

[MajorBoobage]

Im pretty sure they would be better off with Giggs on bench right now

[MajorBoobage]

Man, Klopp really made Lpool way better team in really short term, too bad for todays game

[Zantera]

I think with Liverpool and Klopp you have to keep in mind that he's still coaching the team that Brendan put together. When he gets a few transfers under his belt to shape the team, he will probably get even better results.

Still, wtf is up with the top teams. Spurs/Liverpool dropping today, did not see that coming. Chelsea will definitely drop points tomorrow, not that they're really even a top team at this point.

[MajorBoobage]

[Zydar]

[Nekov]

 

Yeah, Van Gaal needs to go sooner rather than later. I still can't understand why he didn't get any good defender since that is clearly where United lacks the most but whatever.

[Zantera]

Yeah, Van Gaal needs to go sooner rather than later. I still can't understand why he didn't get any good defender since that is clearly where United lacks the most but whatever.

I wouldn't say it's what they lack the most, but each part of the team could need strengthening. If our best defenders (like Smalling) are playing, we will get the clean sheet 4 out of 5 games. The big issue is scoring... I'd say Bournemouth and Aston Villa has more firepower in their offense than we have, and that's really disturbing. Martial is a big talent who won't perform consistently yet, playing with Rooney is like playing 10v11, and behind them we have the always-loaned-out Wilson, defensive midfielder Fellaini used as a target man, but hey, we had to sell Chicharito because he's way too good of a scorer to keep if you want to win with 1-0 every game.

[Nekov]

I get that the offensive is a big problem right now since United seems to be unable to score regularly, but what I'm saying is Smalling can't be the best defender United has. If you are a top European team you need to have top quality defenders and none of the guys United currently has qualifies as one. And I know that they are the team that has received the less amount of goals this year but that has 2 explanations:
1. De Gea
2. The whole team is focused on defending which is also why they have so many problems scoring goals.

[ariich]

Why are Leicester City still so invincible? Based on previous teams doing this surprisingly well early on, they should have started slipping up by now.

On the plus side, it means Chelsea are now only a point above the relegation zone.

[Nekov]

That question is hard to answer but to be honest I like that there is a complete underdog giving a fight up there. What I don't like is that Ranieri is the manager that's being able to pull it off because his style of playing is not one I like and in some way that may hurt the premier league. I consider the premier to be one of the most fun to watch but if teams start seeing that a defensive football like the one Ranieri likes to play gives chances to "little" teams of contending for the title then the league might go into a direction that will not be pleasing.

Also, #lolmourinho

[rumborak]

I'm not following EPL all that much, but man, Mourinho's ego writes checks his body can't cash.

[Cyclopssss]

I think the smug bastard deserves everything that's coming to him. If the club had any sense at all they'd sack his ass.

Stoke City is playing pretty well, I think.

[MajorBoobage]

So Mourinho got sacked!

[Nekov]

So Mourinho got sacked!

Not surprising at all. Chelsea made the right choice there but to be honest I hate them so much that I'd love to have seen them fall down even deeper with Mou. Wonder who will take command of this sinking ship now.

[MajorBoobage]

Guus Hiddink will replace him for now

[ariich]

lolMorinho

Sad we won't be able to use that anymore.

[senecadawg2]

That question is hard to answer but to be honest I like that there is a complete underdog giving a fight up there. What I don't like is that Ranieri is the manager that's being able to pull it off because his style of playing is not one I like and in some way that may hurt the premier league. I consider the premier to be one of the most fun to watch but if teams start seeing that a defensive football like the one Ranieri likes to play gives chances to "little" teams of contending for the title then the league might go into a direction that will not be pleasing.

Not to say that you're incorrect- in that Ranieri likes to play a defensive style- but it's worth noting that a) you have to go all the way down to 14th placed Bournemouth to find a team that has conceded more goals then Leicester and b) they've outscored everyone in the league. Pretty astounding that they're still on one loss having let in 22 goals in 16 games. I for one hope they keep it up, considering the price tags associated with Leicester and the other top teams, respectively.

Also hoping that Tottenham can break into the top 4, these next couple weeks. They blew their chance against Newcastle last weekend but the opportunity is still ripe for the taking.

[Nekov]

I know, I'm not questioning the efficiency of the system, that wouldn't make any sense. Mine is more of an aesthetics critic. As I said, I don't like how they play and I wouldn't like the rest of the premier league to star copying it since it seems to be so effective.

[senecadawg2]

Good games so far today. Tottenham-Watford and Stoke-Everton were both highly entertaining. Spurs look like solid top 4 contenders and, if things continue to fall their way, possibly even more.

Now for the comedy of errors: Man U and Chelsea. I'm cheering for United, on the deluded grounds that I'd like to see Chelsea in the relegation zone and would like to see LVG stick around and continue to muck things up.

[Nekov]

Since we can't #lolmourinho anymore, how about some #lolvangaal? At least until he leaves united in the near future...

[MajorBoobage]

#lolvangaal
He needs to go

[rumborak]

Never liked the guy. He always looks as if someone got him a ManU ticket as an unwanted birthday present. "Fuck, I could be watching hockey, but I guess I had to show up".

[senecadawg2]

Yeah he doesn't typically look very happy to be on the sideline.

With that being said, I wish they would give him more of a chance to right the ship. Something that bothers me about professional soccer, generally, is how high the manager turnover tends to be. It's not that uncommon in other sports, of course, but I'd like to see a bit more consistency among the BPL managers in particular. Of course there are exceptions, with guys like Wenger and Sir AF, but then at the same time you see LVG and Mourinho getting sacked relatively quickly, despite their long and successful careers. To draw an American sports comparison, you would never see this kind of thing in college basketball. Imagine if Coach K was sacked for having one down year and failing to make the NCAA tournament or NIT tournament. It would be embarrassing for him sure, but his cumulative resume is hard to beat (much like LVG and Mourinho), so why not give him more time to work it out? Particularly if he won the championship the year before.

And so the clubs react to the fans, who're typically a bit impatient and seemingly feel entitled to perpetual dominance. It's a shame though, for me, because I'd be really curious to see how a dick bag like Mourinho could perform over a ten yer stretch at Chelsea.

[Nekov]

I normally agree that managers should be given time but there are some particular cases I think sacking is for the best.

In Mourinho's case, he has a fantastic resume but the truth is this year Chelsea were just awful, they are very close to the relegation zone and there seem to be lots of problems within the locker room, not to mention that incident with doctor Carneiro at the beginning of the season. I don't think giving him more time would have been good for Chelsea.

In LVG's case, what I would argue against him is how badly he reinforced the team. They were clearly in need of some defenders and a good striker yet he only got Darmian and Martial. If you are given a ridiculous amount of money and you're team still lacks in critical positions then you did something wrong. And that is not only his fault because someone at Man U has to be on top of those things, I know back in the day Ferguson was given freedom to do whatever he pleased and that's fine cause he had proven he was good at it but it doesn't seem to be the case with LVG.
Add to that the fact that last season they did a better job than they are doing right now which means the team somehow devolved.

And as far as the comparison with college basketball I don't think it's a fair one. The performance of a team in the EPL determines a lot more than that of a college basketball team because of the amount of money involved. Getting to the Champions League and doing a good job there will bring a lot of money in that you need to pay the players who's salaries are in the millions a year. And let's not forget that getting a good spot in the EPL will also get the club a lot of money. Having a bad season means you might need to sell some players because most of them want to play the Champions, while having a bad season in College basketball just means next year you can try again and that's it.

[senecadawg2]

You're right- the college basketball comparison is not a good one. Better would be Belichick and the NFL. My hope is that if the Patriots lost their division in a big way the next couple years, and had chemistry problems abound, that he would be given at least a couple seasons to fix things up. Whereas I wonder how long a guy like Wenger would be allowed to lose before being sacked. Maybe I'm off base on this and soccer/football really aren't that different after all.

And to be clear, you're absolutely right about the very fair criticism against both Mourinho and LVG. Mourinho, in particular, ought've done so much better with the talent on this years team. I suppose it's my relative disinterest in the success of both clubs that makes me all the more interested in seeing them stick with a long-term manager and all the baggage they carry 

Another example would be a guy like your countryman, Mauricio Pochettino. Dude is doing a great job with Tottenham and really working on rebuilding things from the ground up. My concern is that if he keeps it up, he'll eventually bounce as soon as a bigger club comes calling. Of course that's just the nature of the business and I wouldn't begrudge him for doing so. But after a couple years, say he has a bad season. Out the door, reputation blemished, so on and so forth. Meanwhile, Tottenham is cycling through its 10 coach in 20 years or something like that. It's hopeless, I know, but I'd enjoy a bit more consistency in management on all levels of the league.

[Nekov]

Well, that's Football nowadays. It'd be nice that every manager was given the chances Wenger and Fergusson had but money, money, money comes inbetween. And also the fact that nowadays teams change players more regularly than before so a Manager has to deal with new players and new schemes all the time, not to mention players nowadays are like movie stars and don't like to be reprimanded. Managers don't have as much authority as they used to and that also makes their job a lot harder. Look at Rafa Benitez in Real Madrid.

Going back to Pochettino, he did a good job with Southampton and is doing a great job with the Spurs (something my brother is not happy about since he supports Arsenal). He's already being mentioned as the future Argentina National Team manager by some of our media. I just hope he can keep learning and doing a good job whether it's with the Spurs or with some other team.

[Nekov]

I can't believe the amount of lousy penalties Real Madrid gets! They have a good enough team, there's no need for the refs to help them...

[rumborak]

Regarding the coaches, reality is, they are just the easiest to fire. It's one convenient, central person you can pin it on, and you can please the fans by "having done something".
Case in point, look at Dortmund's performance last year. Just like Chelsea, by mid-season they were down to relegation spots. However, Dortmund adored Klopp, so they stuck with him, and lo and behold, by the end of the season they managed a Europa League spot. Same coach as first half, same team. Totally different outcome.

Overall, IMHO in soccer there's an unspoken truth that the sport depends on far more luck than anyone wants to admit to. People conjure up " reasons " for what in reality is just a statistical fluke. That's not to say that there aren't outstanding coaches and players that make it difference. But people perceive soccer as far too deterministic.

[RoeDent]

Managers who look "good" managing teams from other countries, always seem to fail when they come and manage in England? I suspect the same will happen if Pep Guardiola goes to an EPL team.

[rumborak]

Well, no World Cup has ever been won by a team whose coach wasn't a native of said country. Maybe it's a similar effect.

[senecadawg2]

I don't necessarily disagree, and I think the WC fact is a good one to remember, but at the same time there are plenty of examples from this season alone worth considering. Claudio Ranieri and Quique Sánchez Flores have both been very impressive in their EPL managerial return (after 11 years) and debut, respectively. And perhaps to a lesser extent, Slaven Bilic has also been solid (albeit inconsistent) in his own EPL debut.

At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to how committed the coach is to buying into the premier league and developing a mixture of talent. The best example of this is probably Pochettino, who Nevok and I were talking about above. In his first BPL seasons, coming from Espanyol, he immediately showed a strong interest in strengthening the youth program, which is something he's done excellently with Tottenham as well. Mixing in some high quality foreign talent as well (guys like Lloris, Alderweireld and Eriksen), he is nonetheless building the foundation of his team on the backs of young, committed, British players like Kane, Dier, Alli, Mason, Pritchard, etc. In effect, I think he's done a heck of a lot more for developing British soccer these past couple years than guys like Alan Pardrew and Harry Redknapp and so on and so forth. He's struck a good balance there, it's paying off in a big way for him at the moment (though, difficult to see how much longer that will last), and as far as I can tell he is no less capable of doing so as a foreigner.

[Nekov]

Overall, IMHO in soccer there's an unspoken truth that the sport depends on far more luck than anyone wants to admit to. People conjure up " reasons " for what in reality is just a statistical fluke. That's not to say that there aren't outstanding coaches and players that make it difference. But people perceive soccer as far too deterministic.

I don't think it is unspoken at all, every coach will tell you that there's a certain degree of luck involved in every game, even Pep says it and admits his style of play looks to reduce the chances of luck being involved to a minimum. That's one of the things that I dislike most about the sport, in any other competitive sport you can say that the team that has been better wins (except maybe in really close games) but not in football.

[rumborak]

I think it's all due to soccer being such a low-scoring game. When only a handful goals are scored, those goals can easily have been by mere chance.
At the same time, that low-scoring is partially what makes it so attractive, since a single goal changes the overall dynamic of the game. Basketball, in comparison, outlines the winner halfway through the game (except in rare cases), same with baseball, where people start leaving by the seventh inning because they know the game is decided.