and yet another aspect of the American prison system that infuriates me...

[soundgarden]

If you have Netflix (or some other means) look up National Geographic: Solitary Confinement.  Long term solitary confinement which can extend well beyond a decade.

Violence, theft, murder, etc ARE part of human nature and human cultures.  What is not natural is the complete removal of a communal animal from the rest of his species.  For me this is tantamount to torture.  Two doctors in that documentary explain how solitary confinement only worsens a person; making them more unstable, impulsive, and edgy.  I would think this is obvious.  (It is similar to Clockwork Orange; removing Beethoven killed the very last humanity in him.)

The female warden tries to justify the tactics yet statistics CLEARLY show that the procedure doesn't work.  Even the very first penitentiary using this practice had its inmates go mad.

Pay attention to Rube.  12 years initially for selling stolen computer parts.  12 years!? for that!?  That is insane.  And as expected long term solitary confinement made him less psychologically stable resulting in misdemeanors.  Now the guy has a total of 96 years in prison.  

From the scores of thousands of people in the prison system, from the millions on millions that is spent to house them for petty crimes, and then to ridiculous punishments like this.

I am really really, pissed off right now.

[El JoNNo]

I haven't seen this, yet. What does amaze me are the people who get like 20 years for robbing a bank, then there are people who get less or near equivalent.

edit: i meant to type "less or near equivalent for murder". My bad.

[hefdaddy42]

Haven't seen the film, but my understanding is that solitary confinement is not a standard sentence.  Solitary confinement is normally something additional that gets handed down by prison wardens if a certain prisoner doesn't play well with others.  Convicted criminals are not normally sentenced to a length of time in solitary confinement.

AFAIK

[El Barto]

Haven't seen the film, but my understanding is that solitary confinement is not a standard sentence.  Solitary confinement is normally something additional that gets handed down by prison wardens if a certain prisoner doesn't play well with others.  Convicted criminals are not normally sentenced to a length of time in solitary confinement.

AFAIK

No, there are plenty of prisons built specifically for this purpose, with Florence being the most notable.  While allegedly for maximum safety, it would seem that these are mostly just reserved for people The Man really wants to stick it to.  Theodore Kazinski is a fine example.  I don't see why he should pose more of a threat or be in any more danger than your random murderer.  He just ruffled the wrong feathers.  Woody Harleson's father is another example. 

However, I somewhat differ in my opinion of them.  Some people do better in isolation than others.  As much as I despise reading, I think I could adapt alright.  Depending on the sentence, I'd probably prefer it to having to fend off the sodomites 24/7.  The problem is that prisons in general are deplorable, which seems to be the way American society wants it.  I wouldn't suggest turning them into country clubs, but the current system where a doing two years completely destroys your life (or worse*) is bullshit. 

There's also the aspect that privately run prisons cause a whole new set of problems.  Nobody in this country seems to recognize the danger of making incarceration a for-profit enterprise.  Stupid, stupid people.

*The recently deceased brother of a co-worker did a rather brief stint back in the 90s and came out of it with AIDS via circumstances he refused to discuss.

[yeshaberto]

just curious soundgarden.  what are your ideas of dealing with crime and inmates?

I did a study recently and was surprised that there is no reference to prison/jail in the jewish Scriptures.  I have since wondered how that system could work in other socieities

[El Barto]

I did a study recently and was surprised that there is no reference to prison/jail in the jewish Scriptures.  I have since wondered how that system could work in other socieities

They killed, beat or maimed transgressors.  If you want to see the modern application of it, just look to the East.

I did find this damned interesting, concerning Judaic criminal law in capital cases:

If the Beth Din arrived at a unanimous verdict of guilty, the person was let go - the idea being that if no judge could find anything exculpatory about the accused, there was something wrong with the court.

[El JoNNo]

I did find this damned interesting, concerning Judaic criminal law in capital cases:

If the Beth Din arrived at a unanimous verdict of guilty, the person was let go - the idea being that if no judge could find anything exculpatory about the accused, there was something wrong with the court.

Huh, thats kind of a dumb reason.

[j]

I don't buy into all the psycho-bullshit, but of course long-term solitary confinement can have adverse effects.  Maybe at times it could be considered "torture", but it's hard to say IMO.

I definitely agree that it seems to be rarely used in situations where it might actually be necessary, and too often when it's totally out of line.

-J

[yeshaberto]

I did a study recently and was surprised that there is no reference to prison/jail in the jewish Scriptures.  I have since wondered how that system could work in other socieities

They killed, beat or maimed transgressors.  If you want to see the modern application of it, just look to the East.

I did find this damned interesting, concerning Judaic criminal law in capital cases:

If the Beth Din arrived at a unanimous verdict of guilty, the person was let go - the idea being that if no judge could find anything exculpatory about the accused, there was something wrong with the court.

so, what are alternative ideas that you think would work?

[El Barto]

I didn't say I had any, but I'll take a shot.  Right off hand, different types of prisons, none of which bare much resemblance to the ones we have today.  There should be prisons for people who will be let out some day and prisons for people who won't.  If we're going to be letting somebody out at some point, turning him into an animal first doesn't really seem too bright.  The system should focus on either rehabilitation or sequestration.  Trying to do both at the same time doesn't work.  Also, the juvenile system is a tragedy.  You put a 15 year old in gladiator academy and then turn him loose in 3 years, then you're doing a grave disservice to both him and society. 

It's been said that you can judge a society by the way it treats it's prisoners.  I would certainly hope that we could be smart and reasonable enough to treat them smartly and reasonably.  Unfortunately, we look to be more foolish and vindictive. 

[hefdaddy42]

I didn't say I had any, but I'll take a shot.  Right off hand, different types of prisons, none of which bare much resemblance to the ones we have today.  There should be prisons for people who will be let out some day and prisons for people who won't.  If we're going to be letting somebody out at some point, turning him into an animal first doesn't really seem too bright.  The system should focus on either rehabilitation or sequestration.  Trying to do both at the same time doesn't work.  Also, the juvenile system is a tragedy.  You put a 15 year old in gladiator academy and then turn him loose in 3 years, then you're doing a grave disservice to both him and society. 

I agree with all of this.

[Chino]

I have seen the documentary you are talking about two or three times. I am disgusted watching it thinking of how wasteful the prison system is with its funds.

[William Wallace]

Just a general observation: I think the prison system is special to conservatives in the same way the welfare state is special to liberals. That's why it's especially difficult to implement any changes in prisons; we have a huge segment of society that knows little about incarceration, yet they're dedicated to defending the status quo.

[yeshaberto]

I didn't say I had any, but I'll take a shot.  Right off hand, different types of prisons, none of which bare much resemblance to the ones we have today.  There should be prisons for people who will be let out some day and prisons for people who won't.  If we're going to be letting somebody out at some point, turning him into an animal first doesn't really seem too bright.  The system should focus on either rehabilitation or sequestration.  Trying to do both at the same time doesn't work.  Also, the juvenile system is a tragedy.  You put a 15 year old in gladiator academy and then turn him loose in 3 years, then you're doing a grave disservice to both him and society. 

It's been said that you can judge a society by the way it treats it's prisoners.  I would certainly hope that we could be smart and reasonable enough to treat them smartly and reasonably.  Unfortunately, we look to be more foolish and vindictive. 

interesting ideas...I like the separation idea especially

[icysk8r]

Prison is a terrible place.  I hope to never go there.  Although if I did, I would have to think hard about whether to rough it with the other inmates or go to the hole. 

[antigoon]

Bradley Manning, the American soldier who leaked all that crap to WikiLeaks has been held in solitary confinement at Quantico for 23 hours a day for months now. He hasn't even been convicted of anything!

We sure do know how to make examples out of people, don't we?

[El Barto]

Bradley Manning, the American soldier who leaked all that crap to WikiLeaks has been held in solitary confinement at Quantico for 23 hours a day for months now. He hasn't even been convicted of anything!

We sure do know how to make examples out of people, don't we?

Yeah, I just read a [rather poorly written] Salon article about the kid.  That's pretty uncool.  It would appear that they're pumping him full of SSRIs to keep his marbles intact,  despite the fact that they still maintain that isolation such as that won't destroy anybody's mind.

Like I said earlier.  It seems to simply come down to how badly you pissed off The Man. 

[soundgarden]

just curious soundgarden.  what are your ideas of dealing with crime and inmates?

First, and absolute foremost; legalize soft drugs.  The vast majority of inmates are drug offenders where they would look at violence, murder, and maybe theft with the same disdain as the general public.  Prison hardens a man's body, but more so weakens a man's mind.  What was petty crimes now results in a slew of hardened criminals; and after years in the big house they are sent out back to the public (without much rehabilitation, by the way) maintaining semblance of their drug life carrying a disastrous resume and thrown back at the bottom of the economic ladder.  Is it a wonder that 2/3 of prisoners return within 3 years?  That statistic alone shows a grave problem of the prison system.  (lets not even get into the financial benefit of controlled legalized soft drugs)

Secondly, 12 years for selling stolen computer goods?  Is a human life worth that little to be so disregarded?  A hard look into why the man ended up at his situation doing his actions will reveal very understandable social, economic, psychological reasons why he did what he did.  Punishment for wrong-doing is necessary; but it cannot be wielded blindly and without balance.  12 freaken years? poor guy....

Perhaps sentencing should be done by his fellow peers. A jury should decide the time and the terms of the imprisonment, I believe.

Prisons should be rehabilitative in nature as EB states below.  

I didn't say I had any, but I'll take a shot.  Right off hand, different types of prisons, none of which bare much resemblance to the ones we have today.  There should be prisons for people who will be let out some day and prisons for people who won't.  If we're going to be letting somebody out at some point, turning him into an animal first doesn't really seem too bright.  The system should focus on either rehabilitation or sequestration.  Trying to do both at the same time doesn't work.  Also, the juvenile system is a tragedy.  You put a 15 year old in gladiator academy and then turn him loose in 3 years, then you're doing a grave disservice to both him and society.  

I agree with all of this.

+1

[The Texas Pirate!]

solitary confinement will break you if you let it, a weak mind will not hold together then the primal mind mind takes over, the primitive instinctual mind that focuses on food, violence, and pleasure. In that mindset the strong survive and the weak get raped, kindness is weakness, attack first, attack hard, and dont let up till they stop movin, or the tazer stops you. when in that environment you have to learn how to turn on your primal mind and how to turn it off, once you leave that environment. Most cant turn their right mind back on and thats the problem.  The prison system is wrong. punishment should be swift and should fit the crime. manditory sentences, and zero tolerance laws are fuckin stupid.

[Chino]

I like to think I am very strong minded. I can handle a lot of shit and have pushed my brain to its limits at times. If I were ever put in solitary, I think I would officially start losing it after three weeks or so, maybe even earlier than that. There really is no way to fight it or trying to over come it. The lack of sunlight, interaction with other humans, and space will crack anyone in a really short time.

[yeshaberto]

just curious soundgarden.  what are your ideas of dealing with crime and inmates?

First, and absolute foremost; legalize soft drugs.  The vast majority of inmates are drug offenders where they would look at violence, murder, and maybe theft with the same disdain as the general public.  Prison hardens a man's body, but more so weakens a man's mind.  What was petty crimes now results in a slew of hardened criminals; and after years in the big house they are sent out back to the public (without much rehabilitation, by the way) maintaining semblance of their drug life carrying a disastrous resume and thrown back at the bottom of the economic ladder.  Is it a wonder that 2/3 of prisoners return within 3 years?  That statistic alone shows a grave problem of the prison system.  (lets not even get into the financial benefit of controlled legalized soft drugs)

Secondly, 12 years for selling stolen computer goods?  Is a human life worth that little to be so disregarded?  A hard look into why the man ended up at his situation doing his actions will reveal very understandable social, economic, psychological reasons why he did what he did.  Punishment for wrong-doing is necessary; but it cannot be wielded blindly and without balance.  12 freaken years? poor guy....

Perhaps sentencing should be done by his fellow peers. A jury should decide the time and the terms of the imprisonment, I believe.

great ideas, SG

[yeshaberto]

coincidentally, I saw a movie the other day that was powerful.  it was on alcatraz and a guy who was placed in solitary for three years (the limit back then was three weeks) and he went crazy and killed someone.  he was initially in for petty theft.  very moving true story that tackles this same thing, but I can't think of the name of it right now

[ack44]

First, and absolute foremost; legalize soft drugs.

Or simply do what more progressive countries have done - decriminalize possession of any drug for personal use. There's too much of a difference between user and dealer.

[Chino]

There are a lot of things that people shouldn't go to jail for. Punishment, yes. Imprisonment, no.  Someone stealing electronics should not be in jail unless they murdered someone in the process. Give the guy a few hundred hours of mandatory community service and call it a day.

[7StringedBeast]

There are a lot of things that people shouldn't go to jail for. Punishment, yes. Imprisonment, no.  Someone stealing electronics should not be in jail unless they murdered someone in the process. Give the guy a few hundred hours of mandatory community service and call it a day.

Do you really think that is a good crime deterrent?  Guy steals.  Gets community service.  Nothing else changes?  He can go home to sleep in his own bed?  Go out steal some more shit, get more community service tacked on?  Not really a good deterrent.  It's too lenient I think.

[Adami]

There are a lot of things that people shouldn't go to jail for. Punishment, yes. Imprisonment, no.  Someone stealing electronics should not be in jail unless they murdered someone in the process. Give the guy a few hundred hours of mandatory community service and call it a day.

Do you really think that is a good crime deterrent?  Guy steals.  Gets community service.  Nothing else changes?  He can go home to sleep in his own bed?  Go out steal some more shit, get more community service tacked on?  Not really a good deterrent.  It's too lenient I think.

I agree. But putting him in a place with a bunch of other criminals isn't a great idea either.

[Chino]

There are a lot of things that people shouldn't go to jail for. Punishment, yes. Imprisonment, no.  Someone stealing electronics should not be in jail unless they murdered someone in the process. Give the guy a few hundred hours of mandatory community service and call it a day.

Do you really think that is a good crime deterrent?  Guy steals.  Gets community service.  Nothing else changes?  He can go home to sleep in his own bed?  Go out steal some more shit, get more community service tacked on?  Not really a good deterrent.  It's too lenient I think.

If I already have a full time job, then have to do an additional 8 hour shift every day after that one (for free), it's going to make me think twice.

[7StringedBeast]

There are a lot of things that people shouldn't go to jail for. Punishment, yes. Imprisonment, no.  Someone stealing electronics should not be in jail unless they murdered someone in the process. Give the guy a few hundred hours of mandatory community service and call it a day.

Do you really think that is a good crime deterrent?  Guy steals.  Gets community service.  Nothing else changes?  He can go home to sleep in his own bed?  Go out steal some more shit, get more community service tacked on?  Not really a good deterrent.  It's too lenient I think.

If I already have a full time job, then have to do an additional 8 hour shift every day after that one (for free), it's going to make me think twice.

You have a full time job.  You aren't going to be the type of person that goes around looking for electronics to steal.  Just sayin'.

Maybe we should have 2 types of jails.  Serious jail, and not so serious jail. 

The whole point of jail anyways is to deter crime.  If there is no good punishment, there is more of a reason to commit the crime.  People do crime if they think they won't get caught/ won't harm anyone.  So stealing things.  Like stealing things over the internet like music and movies.  People think they won't get caught/ aren't hurting everyone, and look, everyone does it.  It's rampant in our society to the point where its almost acceptable.

You have the choice to commit a crime or not commit a crime.  Personal responsibility.  If you choose to commit the crime, you gotta pay up somehow.

[Chino]

There are a lot of things that people shouldn't go to jail for. Punishment, yes. Imprisonment, no.  Someone stealing electronics should not be in jail unless they murdered someone in the process. Give the guy a few hundred hours of mandatory community service and call it a day.

Do you really think that is a good crime deterrent?  Guy steals.  Gets community service.  Nothing else changes?  He can go home to sleep in his own bed?  Go out steal some more shit, get more community service tacked on?  Not really a good deterrent.  It's too lenient I think.

If I already have a full time job, then have to do an additional 8 hour shift every day after that one (for free), it's going to make me think twice.

You have a full time job.  You aren't going to be the type of person that goes around looking for electronics to steal.  Just sayin'.

Maybe we should have 2 types of jails.  Serious jail, and not so serious jail. 

The whole point of jail anyways is to deter crime.  If there is no good punishment, there is more of a reason to commit the crime.  People do crime if they think they won't get caught/ won't harm anyone.  So stealing things.  Like stealing things over the internet like music and movies.  People think they won't get caught/ aren't hurting everyone, and look, everyone does it.  It's rampant in our society to the point where its almost acceptable.

You have the choice to commit a crime or not commit a crime.  Personal responsibility.  If you choose to commit the crime, you gotta pay up somehow.

But it pisses me off that my tax dollars day to keep a guy who steals DVD players locked up along side a guy who raped and/or murdered someone. 

[7StringedBeast]

So lock up the dvd stealer and execute the murderer.  But that's a whole 'nother issue.

[The Texas Pirate!]

in 1999 I was sentnced to 14 months in TDCJ
in the course of my sentence I assaulted a guard, and was then in turn,assaulted by several guards who took turns beating the dogshit out of me. I was taken to the infermary then put in solitary confinement for 90 days in those 90 days I was taken out of my cell three times.

[7StringedBeast]

And?  Could you elaborate on how you felt or what went through your head.  Were you cracking?  I only ask cause people in this thread have been wondering and asking about what it does to people.  So I was wondering if you could shed some more light on it.  If you don't that's fine.

[The Texas Pirate!]

the only contact with another human was through the US postal sevice. I was allowed two peices of paper per day and one pen and one pencil. The guards I considered them to be non human, robots, is what I told my self. And I would push their buttons, testing their reactions. I turned off my "modern" mind, and let my  "primal" mind loose. There are those who cant and there were some who totaly lost it. I knew how to turn my modern mind back on. I coped with it by reading the bible, cover to cover, over and over. the second time I went to prison was worse, because I was "with" an "orginization" and then droped, aka put in the hospital, while still in the County jail for lies someone was telling about me. So I was below the last rung, and had to fight to proove my worth, and fight I did. My primal mind came on and stayed on for 18 months the second day I was there, I got tackled by six guards,45 days in the hole. two months on the hoe squad, which is working in the feild building rows with hoes. I was charged with organizing a riot. and thrown in the hole 60 days.
false charges I just got everyone to sit down and ignore all the guards orders So it was no riot. damit I got to stop writing for a bit.
Its harder to keep my primal mind locked up when I start getting angry. I can only  imagine  what I would be like after doing 10-15 years.