Would DT 6.0 survive a flop?

[rumborak]

I don't think you can make such a sweeping generalization. Look at Radiohead, look at U2, look at Madonna. Time and again those bands have shifted their foot to something very different, essentially reinventing themselves at the expense of losing a lot of their fans.
Problem is IMHO, DT doesn't really have a visionary. There is no Roger Waters, no Steve Wilson in DT. Sure, they all love music and love making music, but none of the DT members seems to have that primal urge to express their world view into music.
A lot of people who I have shown DT to have commented "you know, I have to say it's incredibly well-executed. But, it doesn't do much for me", and over the years I kinda realized there was something to their point. I love(d) DT for the surgical precision, but over the years I've somewhat grown out of the appreciation of mere mechanic excellence, and then you realize that DT doesn't offer too much in artistic vision. I've said this before and gotten shitloads of flak for it, but DT just barely make the label "artists" to me. In my view, they're 98% musicians, and 2% artists.

rumborak

[lordxizor]

This is my real hope for the next album:

That the guys have fun making it and try to express themselves more.
That the lyrics move away from cheesball fantasy to something more poetic again.

If those two things happen, I will consider the album a success even if I don't particularly like it.

[emindead]

So what's the deal for a single to become a 'hit'? The answer lies in the chorus, the bridge, the famous riff, the whole composition?

Why didn't 'Another Day' become such a solid hit like 'Pull Me Under'. To me, 'Another Day' is JLB's best song performance in his career. The problem is that the song didn't have a chorus where the listener could join in when he gets lost.

Writing successful commercial songs is, apparently, an art that DT never learned to master. If they don't manage to create their own 'Celebrity Skin', with that touch of virtuosity they have, I see it really difficult for them to overcome another flop.

[Global Laziness]

Problem is IMHO, DT doesn't really have a visionary. There is no Roger Waters, no Steve Wilson in DT. Sure, they all love music and love making music, but none of the DT members seems to have that primal urge to express their world view into music.
A lot of people who I have shown DT to have commented "you know, I have to say it's incredibly well-executed. But, it doesn't do much for me", and over the years I kinda realized there was something to their point. I love(d) DT for the surgical precision, but over the years I've somewhat grown out of the appreciation of mere mechanic excellence, and then you realize that DT doesn't offer too much in artistic vision. I've said this before and gotten shitloads of flak for it, but DT just barely make the label "artists" to me. In my view, they're 98% musicians, and 2% artists.

rumborak

Interesting thought...but just based on those two examples, does a band's "visionary" have to be a lyricist? Because, with respect to "vision" in music, that's what comes to mind for me. Does Dream Theater have a lot of lyrical strength? No. Aside from a few gems, a lot of their lyrics are just good, and some are...not.

But from a musical perspective on the whole, how do you define "vision"?

[rumborak]

But from a musical perspective on the whole, how do you define "vision"?

Well, to me a "vision" is the artist's attempt to convey a certain idea or emotion to the listener, across a whole album. Take The Wall. That album has a vision you immediately perceive upon listening to it. It's not just lyrics either; it is the lyrics, the music, the mood, everything. The artist sets a goal for himself to convey an idea, and all elements work towards that end.
I mean, sure, DT had concept albums, but to me, there was no vision to SFAM. It was a story they told, but that's very different from The Wall.
The closest DT have ever gotten to an artistic vision is .... wait for it ... Space Dye Vest. IMHO. I listen to the tune, and feel transformed into the lyrics' character, feel his emotion. I can not say that of any other DT song.

rumborak

[Jamesman42]

I'd say Ottervarium has a vision. Unless you are not counting themes.

[Global Laziness]

But from a musical perspective on the whole, how do you define "vision"?

Well, to me a "vision" is the artist's attempt to convey a certain idea or emotion to the listener, across a whole album. Take The Wall. That album has a vision you immediately perceive upon listening to it. It's not just lyrics either; it is the lyrics, the music, the mood, everything. The artist sets a goal for himself to convey an idea, and all elements work towards that end.
I mean, sure, DT had concept albums, but to me, there was no vision to SFAM. It was a story they told, but that's very different from The Wall.
The closest DT have ever gotten to an artistic vision is .... wait for it ... Space Dye Vest. IMHO. I listen to the tune, and feel transformed into the lyrics' character, feel his emotion. I can not say that of any other DT song.

rumborak

Another thing to look at is that in both Pink Floyd and Porcupine Tree, the bands were/are driven largely by one member. That isn't to say that each band doesn't have multiple talented musicians/songwriters/whatever, it just means that when you think/thought of the band, you tended to think of that one person first. The same can't be said for Dream Theater.

[orcus116]

I wouldn't say Floyd was driven mainly by Waters, though it almost appeared that way towards the end. That band worked best as that foursome.

[Global Laziness]

I wouldn't say Floyd was driven mainly by Waters, though it almost appeared that way towards the end. That band worked best as that foursome.

That's more what I was getting at.

[jcmoorehead]

So what's the deal for a single to become a 'hit'? The answer lies in the chorus, the bridge, the famous riff, the whole composition?

Why didn't 'Another Day' become such a solid hit like 'Pull Me Under'. To me, 'Another Day' is JLB's best song performance in his career. The problem is that the song didn't have a chorus where the listener could join in when he gets lost.

Writing successful commercial songs is, apparently, an art that DT never learned to master. If they don't manage to create their own 'Celebrity Skin', with that touch of virtuosity they have, I see it really difficult for them to overcome another flop.

Promotion helps massively, the band could have the best written single in the world, it could have their trademark virtuosity, a catchy chorus, great riff, bridge, the entire lot but unless theres a huge huge effort on the part of the record label to promote it then it's not going to get anywhere.

I mean I personally thought Wither had a hell of a lot of potential as a single, it was emotional, had a good chorus, wasn't too out there for casual listeners. I'm not saying it should have set the charts on fire but I thought it could have done well but who out there besides us Dream Theater fans knew about it? There wasn't exactly a massive marketing campaign for it, Dream Theater didn't make appearences on Radio shows or TV talking about the single.

I'm not slating the job Roadrunner have done of promoting the band, I can't really they've been successful with their past two albums but there was a feeling, with me at least, that maybe with the last single in particular more could have been done.

[PetFish]

Sorry, but comparing DT to Extreme is ludicrous.  First of all, no offense to Extreme, but none of those guys are even in the same ballpark as DT in terms of being true artists.  I really like Extreme, but it's true.  Nuno is a great player, but he's more about being successful and rich than making artistic statements.  Petrucci, on the other hand, is more interested in creating works of substance (for the most part) rather than selling albums.  Just that difference between JP and Nuno invalidates the comparison.  

Man, I wish I could un-read this.  The fact that you think Extreme aren't "true artists" blows me away.

You say you "really like Extreme" but I think you know them only from More Than Words and nothing else.  If that song were all that mattered then III Sides would have been all acoustic ballads but the fact that they went with a prog concept album should tell you all you need to know.  It failed but they did what they wanted to do as "true artists" and they kept the respect of their "true fans" who appreciate "true artistry" and not corporate pan-handling.

I love both of them to bits but IMO Nuno is a more diverse player than JP.  JP plays fast and clean but Nuno is one of the best all-time at putting emotion into what he plays, even if it's technically difficult along with incorporating different styles throughout songs/albums.   Nuno also plays piano and sings WELL.  Oh, look, JP played a brief jazz passage on Live in Tokyo.  Oh, look, JP did his cliche one-note-pedal-tone-descending-left-hand-tapping lick.

Honestly, you can't even compare them cuz they are so different.  They are both great and it should be left at that.

The more I think about it I hope you're just trolling with your statement.

PS - Shouldn't the next version of DT be 5.0?  I figure CD was v1, JL was v2, DS was v3, JR was v4, and the new one will be v5.  Am I missing something?

[SnakeEyes]

I really don't care if any of you agree with me about Extreme, to be honest.  My point is valid.  Nuno, compared to Petrucci, is a poser.  Sure, JP has had his ups and downs as far as trends go, but he's always been JP.  He never sold out to be successful.  Even with Falling Into Infinity.  Nuno, on the other hand, HAS done that.  I didn't say Nuno isn't an amazing guitarist (he's one of my favorites) or that he isn't a true artist.  What I said was that he's not primarily concerned with creating art, but rather being successful, which leads to making money.  

edit..

Basically, my point is that DT and Extreme can't be compared in the context that people tried to compare them in this thread because the intentions of both bands are not the same. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Music, is a lovely. Hell I love Octavarium, but my Favortie Album is 6DOIT. and my fav. song is Voices. All music is the artist expressing their emotions, and if it clicks it clicks. Most music alyways clicks cause I love music. Doesnt matter the scale key or anything. All music is Lovely.

[Global Laziness]

PS - Shouldn't the next version of DT be 5.0?  I figure CD was v1, JL was v2, DS was v3, JR was v4, and the new one will be v5.  Am I missing something?

DT 1.0 would have Chris Collins on vocals.

[tri.ad]

True, but it was called Majesty back then, so if you're a stickler, DT 1.0 would be the line-up with Charlie.

Personally, I don't care if it's DT 5 or 6.

[orcus116]

I was actually joking about Collins being v1.0 in the last thread.

[PetFish]

I think we should only count the studio albums which would make the upcoming v5.0.