Author Topic: Can Music Be Objectively Good?  (Read 17628 times)

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Offline Orbert

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #105 on: December 29, 2018, 09:07:23 AM »
Objective implies that there is some absolute way of measuring or otherwise applying criteria to something.  There is no such way of qualifying music.  10 million people liking doesn't make it "good" to you if you don't like it.  10 million people hating something doesn't make it "bad" to you if you like it.

If I hate Beethoven symphonies and listening to them drives me nucking futs, meanwhile my 3-year-old is in the kitchen banging pots and pans and keeping a pretty good rhythm and I love him and thus pretty much anything he does, then yeah, I'd rather listen to that than a Beethoven symphony.  There is no objective scale to apply, there are no objective criteria.  My kid banging on pots and pans isn't just the equal of a Beethoven symphony; it's better, because I would rather listen to it.

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2018, 09:16:08 AM »
Orbert is objectively awesome.

I don't think that disproves my other arguments, however.
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Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2018, 09:54:47 AM »
Oh DTF  :heart

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2018, 10:31:19 AM »
Objective implies that there is some absolute way of measuring or otherwise applying criteria to something.  There is no such way of qualifying music.  10 million people liking doesn't make it "good" to you if you don't like it.  10 million people hating something doesn't make it "bad" to you if you like it.

If I hate Beethoven symphonies and listening to them drives me nucking futs, meanwhile my 3-year-old is in the kitchen banging pots and pans and keeping a pretty good rhythm and I love him and thus pretty much anything he does, then yeah, I'd rather listen to that than a Beethoven symphony.  There is no objective scale to apply, there are no objective criteria.  My kid banging on pots and pans isn't just the equal of a Beethoven symphony; it's better, because I would rather listen to it.

So then Nickelback could be subjectively BETTER than Led Zeppelin because there are some people who would rather listen to Nickelback than Zeppelin. But most discerning music fans would find that statement pretty absurd. Saying Nickelback is better than Zep is like saying something illogical. It's like saying that a piss tastes better than orange juice. Come on, then we can say that the answer on a question "What tastes better: piss or orange juice" is not objective, but subjective.



Offline jammindude

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2018, 10:31:47 AM »
Orbert is objectively awesome.

I don't think that disproves my other arguments, however.

Can’t have it both ways...

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2018, 10:32:41 AM »
Objective implies that there is some absolute way of measuring or otherwise applying criteria to something.  There is no such way of qualifying music.  10 million people liking doesn't make it "good" to you if you don't like it.  10 million people hating something doesn't make it "bad" to you if you like it.

If I hate Beethoven symphonies and listening to them drives me nucking futs, meanwhile my 3-year-old is in the kitchen banging pots and pans and keeping a pretty good rhythm and I love him and thus pretty much anything he does, then yeah, I'd rather listen to that than a Beethoven symphony.  There is no objective scale to apply, there are no objective criteria.  My kid banging on pots and pans isn't just the equal of a Beethoven symphony; it's better, because I would rather listen to it.

So then Nickelback could be subjectively BETTER than Led Zeppelin because there are some people who would rather listen to Nickelback than Zeppelin. But most discerning music fans would find that statement pretty absurd. Saying Nickelback is better than Zep is like saying something illogical. It's like saying that a piss tastes better than orange juice. Come on, then we can say that the answer on a question "What tastes better: piss or orange juice" is not objective, but subjective.

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Offline Elite

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #111 on: December 29, 2018, 11:11:53 AM »
Come on, then we can say that the answer on a question "What tastes better: piss or orange juice" is not objective, but subjective.

I think you have an extraordinarily hard time separating facts from opinions, because the very question you’re mockingly asking is, indeed, going to give you a subjective answer.
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Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #112 on: December 29, 2018, 11:15:13 AM »
Objective implies that there is some absolute way of measuring or otherwise applying criteria to something.  There is no such way of qualifying music.  10 million people liking doesn't make it "good" to you if you don't like it.  10 million people hating something doesn't make it "bad" to you if you like it.

If I hate Beethoven symphonies and listening to them drives me nucking futs, meanwhile my 3-year-old is in the kitchen banging pots and pans and keeping a pretty good rhythm and I love him and thus pretty much anything he does, then yeah, I'd rather listen to that than a Beethoven symphony.  There is no objective scale to apply, there are no objective criteria.  My kid banging on pots and pans isn't just the equal of a Beethoven symphony; it's better, because I would rather listen to it.

So then Nickelback could be subjectively BETTER than Led Zeppelin because there are some people who would rather listen to Nickelback than Zeppelin. But most discerning music fans would find that statement pretty absurd. Saying Nickelback is better than Zep is like saying something illogical. It's like saying that a piss tastes better than orange juice. Come on, then we can say that the answer on a question "What tastes better: piss or orange juice" is not objective, but subjective.

Dude, I don't know why you find it hard to get to grips with the fact that yes, some people like Nickelback more than Led Zep. I mean, I'd be surprised if out of the whole DTF crowd more people liked Nickelback over Led Zep (but I wouldn't lose sleep over it) but if we're talking about the population if the planet then no, I really wouldn't be surprised.

Also, I work in care and have supported lots of people (especially with Autistic Spectrum Conditions) who have different sensory needs and preferences. Trust me, for some piss is better than orange juice!

Offline Crow

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #113 on: December 29, 2018, 11:15:21 AM »
i think i figured it out
wildranger is an evolutionary algorithm designed by scientists to find the answer to what is objectively "good" and "bad" in music
it's why he makes so many poll threads and has such a hard time with opinions vs. facts
and he learned by looking at RYM's dumb "top albums of all time" list

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #114 on: December 29, 2018, 11:18:41 AM »
My take is an abstract one.

There IS a line.

No one can define it. No one can say precisely where it is. And it may, in fact, be a very blurry line that moves around for different people. But no one can say the line doesn’t exist. Because it does exist.

It sounds like you're describing the line for everyone's personal subjective taste. If the line moves around from person to person then it's not objective.
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Offline Anguyen92

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #115 on: December 29, 2018, 12:47:14 PM »
So then Nickelback could be subjectively BETTER than Led Zeppelin because there are some people who would rather listen to Nickelback than Zeppelin. But most discerning music fans would find that statement pretty absurd. Saying Nickelback is better than Zep is like saying something illogical. It's like saying that a piss tastes better than orange juice. Come on, then we can say that the answer on a question "What tastes better: piss or orange juice" is not objective, but subjective.

I knew someone is going to throw Nickelback as an example since they are everyone's favorite rock band punching bags around the internet (Creed, as well.  Not here though, but elsewhere).

Here's the thing.  I am not a classic rock listener, I usually change stations if I hear a classic rock tune if there a modern rock track that I want to listen to elsewhere.  Some people would actually like to listen to Nickelback over Led Zeppelin for their own unique reasons.  If I had a choice listening to a Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, etc. track or a Nickelback track, oddly enough, I probably would choose the Nickelback track.  Heck, I've been listening to Nickelback more than the majority of the heralded classic rock bands in recent times and not regret that thought process. 

Would I say Nickelback is the better band than those bands?  I can't honestly say that, but I also can't say that those older bands are better than Nickelback, because that's not how I want to view music.  I view what music I listen to more on my overall enjoyment which is based on a variety of things that only I can define.  People can listen to what music they want to based on what they want for their own personal reasoning.  How else would a guy like Ed Sheeran (who I like) draw stadium crowds over bands we feel is sorely overlooked?  It's because people would prefer listening to a guy like Ed Sheeran and want to see his show above all else for their own unique reasons.  It can't be something that's easily defined.

The same goes for wrestling.  Who is the best wrestler of all time?  What can we based that off of?  It could be a lot of reasons.  Their drawing power and attendance to crowds and PPV buys, how they wrestle a match, how they talk in interviews, engage their crowds, etc.  People would say Hulk Hogan is the best wrestler of all time.  Some would say Stone Cold Steve Austin.  Some would say Ric Flair, The Rock, Bret Hart, etc.  It's something that cannot be easily be looked at and go, "That is the definitive answer and anything else is a crap answer."  The same goes for music as well.

Musicians and wrestlers are not like sports athlete in that sense where we look at an athlete stats in a career and go "this is the greatest basketball player, football player, hockey player, etc. in the world."  Even then, some people in modern times would argue whether or not a guy like Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky would complete, like the greatest of all time players they are deemed, in today's sports environment in comparison to a guy like Lebron James or Sidney Crosby.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 01:00:58 PM by Anguyen92 »

Offline Evermind

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #116 on: December 29, 2018, 02:36:16 PM »
I saw this thread was resurrected and thought "nah, no one's gonna engage this time".

I underestimated DTF.
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Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2018, 04:22:16 PM »
I saw this thread was resurrected and thought "nah, no one's gonna engage this time".

I underestimated DTF.
My thought too.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2018, 07:38:55 PM »
Stadler and I have tried to soapbox about a particular point that's relevant here. 

The difference between "better" and "preference".       For instance, I am a big supporter of the idea that Steely Dan is one of the BEST and most important and influential rock acts in history.     If I were to put together a list of "best" artists from the 70's, I could easily see them in the top 10.    But as far as "what I like", they wouldn't even crack my top 100.  I just don't get it.  I like a song or two, but they just don't appeal to me at all.    But I still consider them one of the greatest rock acts of all time.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #119 on: December 29, 2018, 07:41:16 PM »
I find this thread not important at all.
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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2018, 07:45:19 PM »
I find this thread not important at all.

Is an OP written by Einstein objectively better than an OP written by a 3 year old?

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #121 on: December 29, 2018, 08:38:21 PM »
Sorry.  I meant I couldn't care less and the same for that as well.
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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #122 on: December 29, 2018, 08:41:10 PM »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Zantera

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2018, 03:13:11 AM »
A simple "no" and the thread locked would have been answer enough to this mindbogglingly stupid question.

Offline Implode

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2018, 09:19:16 AM »
A simple "no" and the thread locked would have been answer enough to this mindbogglingly stupid question.

 :'(











You're totally right tho

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2018, 09:51:40 AM »
If the definitive answer on this topic is NO, it should give some kind of excuse to some people to listen whatever "crap" they want and they can't be judged for that by other people who have different ("superior") tastes than them.
Then some person whose favorite music acts are Ed Sheeran, Bruno Mars, Nicki Minaj, Coldplay and Britney Spears have an equally "good" taste with some person whose favorite music acts are Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Prince and Yes, because good music is subjective and then tastes are relative.



« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 09:57:46 AM by WildRanger »

Offline Elite

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #126 on: December 31, 2018, 09:58:25 AM »
Why are you quick to call things you don’t like ‘crap’ when there’s clearly a (very large) audience for that type of music? Also, why would there be a need to ‘judge’ those people on their music tastes? Have you ever thought that your thought process could go the other way round as well?

This shit is unbelievable.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2018, 10:00:58 AM »
So, basically, you're just looking for a justification for the sense of moral superiority you feel over people who have different taste than you.

Offline Elite

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2018, 10:02:12 AM »
Isn’t that the underlying theme for all his threads though?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2018, 10:11:49 AM »
Look.   I absolutely do NOT feel any of this makes me a "better person" somehow.   I just have a different skill set.

Some people are REALLY into cars.  I don't get it.  I probably never will.   But I don't consider myself a car expert.   I like the car I have because it gets me from point A to point B, and I really don't care what car I have as long as it continues to do that.     

...and I think the opinion of a car expert is much more valid than mine is.   And it doesn't make him a better person, it just means he is better than me in that department because he has a skilled interest in that subject.    Coming to me for advice on cars would be like getting music advice from someone who's favorite artist is Britney Spears.    There's nothing WRONG with that, but they obviously know jack about music.   And that's OK.   It doesn't make me better than them.   It just means we have different interests.   If I need advice on cars, I go to a car expert.   If I suddenly decide I would like to know more about cars, I can learn from the experts.   Maybe I'll find out that the car I'm driving isn't all that great after all.      If someone who has only listened to pop music and enjoys certain singles and that's all they have ever needed suddenly decides that they would like to "explore" music more because maybe they're missing out on something....they can go to the experts.   
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Offline WildRanger

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2018, 10:25:59 AM »
So, basically, you're just looking for a justification for the sense of moral superiority you feel over people who have different taste than you.

Nope. It's not a matter of my personal taste in music. I just said that if one person has Ed Sheeran, Bruno Mars, Nicki Minaj, Coldplay and Britney Spears as his favorite acts, it's not the same as other person has Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Prince and Yes as his favorite acts, because Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Prince and Yes are like "venerated saints" of music, while Ed Sheeran, Bruno Mars, Nicki Minaj, Coldplay and Britney Spears are definitely not. That's the difference.
I don't divide taste in music on bad and good, I just think people either have a taste or not. And I don't think that people must have the same or similar taste like me(to listen most music acts that I love), but they should "have a taste". 


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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2018, 10:58:10 AM »
Look.   I absolutely do NOT feel any of this makes me a "better person" somehow.   I just have a different skill set.

Some people are REALLY into cars.  I don't get it.  I probably never will.   But I don't consider myself a car expert.   I like the car I have because it gets me from point A to point B, and I really don't care what car I have as long as it continues to do that.     

...and I think the opinion of a car expert is much more valid than mine is.   And it doesn't make him a better person, it just means he is better than me in that department because he has a skilled interest in that subject.    Coming to me for advice on cars would be like getting music advice from someone who's favorite artist is Britney Spears.    There's nothing WRONG with that, but they obviously know jack about music.   And that's OK.   It doesn't make me better than them.   It just means we have different interests.   If I need advice on cars, I go to a car expert.   If I suddenly decide I would like to know more about cars, I can learn from the experts.   Maybe I'll find out that the car I'm driving isn't all that great after all.      If someone who has only listened to pop music and enjoys certain singles and that's all they have ever needed suddenly decides that they would like to "explore" music more because maybe they're missing out on something....they can go to the experts.

Cars are tools. You can't be an expert in taste (meh). There are no car experts in the field of aesthetics. You can have a music expert who knows all about theory and how sound works, but that STILL has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2018, 11:01:00 AM »
So, basically, you're just looking for a justification for the sense of moral superiority you feel over people who have different taste than you.

Nope. It's not a matter of my personal taste in music. I just said that if one person has Ed Sheeran, Bruno Mars, Nicki Minaj, Coldplay and Britney Spears as his favorite acts, it's not the same as other person has Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Prince and Yes as his favorite acts, because Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Prince and Yes are like "venerated saints" of music, while Ed Sheeran, Bruno Mars, Nicki Minaj, Coldplay and Britney Spears are definitely not. That's the difference.
I don't divide taste in music on bad and good, I just think people either have a taste or not. And I don't think that people must have the same or similar taste like me(to listen most music acts that I love), but they should "have a taste".

You're also comparing old acts to brand new ones.

Madonna, Beyonce, Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, Run DMC, Jay Z, are all, and will continue to be giant legends in music.

I'm not 100% why I'm even engaging in this discussion. Probably boredom.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2018, 11:11:50 AM »
Look.   I absolutely do NOT feel any of this makes me a "better person" somehow.   I just have a different skill set.

Some people are REALLY into cars.  I don't get it.  I probably never will.   But I don't consider myself a car expert.   I like the car I have because it gets me from point A to point B, and I really don't care what car I have as long as it continues to do that.     

...and I think the opinion of a car expert is much more valid than mine is.   And it doesn't make him a better person, it just means he is better than me in that department because he has a skilled interest in that subject.    Coming to me for advice on cars would be like getting music advice from someone who's favorite artist is Britney Spears.    There's nothing WRONG with that, but they obviously know jack about music.   And that's OK.   It doesn't make me better than them.   It just means we have different interests.   If I need advice on cars, I go to a car expert.   If I suddenly decide I would like to know more about cars, I can learn from the experts.   Maybe I'll find out that the car I'm driving isn't all that great after all.      If someone who has only listened to pop music and enjoys certain singles and that's all they have ever needed suddenly decides that they would like to "explore" music more because maybe they're missing out on something....they can go to the experts.

Cars are tools. You can't be an expert in taste (meh). There are no car experts in the field of aesthetics. You can have a music expert who knows all about theory and how sound works, but that STILL has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Ever hear a Ford guy and a Chevy guy argue about which is "the best car"?     

Heck, TOP GEAR is an entire show dedicated to car experts debating about personal tastes (among many other things).   So there isn't a definitive "best car"......BUT I STILL consider their opinions to be more valid than mine because THEY ARE EXPERTS.   And I want to underline again that it doesn't make them better people.   Just their opinions on cars are more valid than mine because it is their field of expertise.     Their opinions on cars mean more than the opinion on cars of a person who isn't all that interested in the details of what goes into a car.    Driving a car every day does not make your opinion on cars valid.   A daily commute doesn't make you a car expert.  Just like listening to pop music in the background on that daily commute doesn't mean you know anything about music.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2018, 11:29:33 AM »
JD,

A respected opinion is not the same as objectivity. You're moving the goal post here or at the very least substituting one definition for another. For language to work, words have to have agreed upon definition. In this instance objectivity is to be completely divorced of opinion and only pertains to facts. Whether something is good or bad is by it's very nature an opinion.

See the difference?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2018, 11:40:02 AM »
JD,

A respected opinion is not the same as objectivity. You're moving the goal post here or at the very least substituting one definition for another. For language to work, words have to have agreed upon definition. In this instance objectivity is to be completely divorced of opinion and only pertains to facts. Whether something is good or bad is by it's very nature an opinion.

See the difference?

One thing I will confess to (but I have always been *consistent* in this opinion) is that I've been arguing for a much more abstract concept from the very beginning.      It might seem like "moving the goal posts" but I've stated before that this line...the line between subjectivity and objectivity...is a blurry fuzzy line that seems to move around every time you try to define what it is.   But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.    Some things are difficult to define...but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

What is "the flow of traffic"?   We use that phrase in our daily lives, but who can actually put a black and white definition on it?   And I guarantee that, now that I've said that, someone will try.   But no matter what definition you come up with, it will fail to fully describe the concept of what the phrase means.    What speed is "the flow of traffic"?   What is the MPH of "the flow of traffic"?  You cannot answer these questions *without creating new questions*!   Because the concept is really impossible to define in black and white terms and everyone will have a different opinion about what it actually is.   But know one denies that it does exist.     And most of us also know when someone who doesn't know how to drive breaks that "flow".... 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 11:51:51 AM by jammindude »
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Online Adami

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2018, 11:42:01 AM »
JD, I say this with all the love in the world toward you.

You're not being abstract. You're just being wrong. Objective and subjective are not hard to define. They are very definable.



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Offline Podaar

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2018, 11:44:27 AM »
I love you too, JD!
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Online MirrorMask

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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2018, 11:47:05 AM »
We're also forgetting a thing that we, as hardcore fans of music, sometimes gloss over: not everyone has the same deep passion for music like we do, regardless of the genre. There are people who don't watch movies, there are people who don't read books, and there are people who are just fine with hearing a nice beat or a hummable tune when they're working out or when they have nothing else do to. For them, simple pop music is more than enough.

While we discuss about music, there are art experts out there who cringe at the idea that the only thing people know of Leonardo is the Monna Lisa, and the only thing people remember of Van Gogh is the Starry Night and maybe they don't even know it's from Van Gogh, they just like to have the picture as wallpaper. Tastes aside, not everyone has the same deep dedication to music like us, so it's not that they like "bad" music 'cause they can't tell the difference - for them, it's not so important nor, after all, they'd have a moral obligation to themselves to discover more, just like people who have a mug of the Starry Night don't owe to themselves to check all the impressionists' work.
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Re: Can Music Be Objectively Good?
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2018, 11:55:27 AM »
i'm just surprised this thread is still open considering the first thing i did when wildranger bumped it was report him
like are all the mods on holiday still