All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)

[MetalJunkie]

I did a search and couldn't find this question.  I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time.  Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me.  This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"?  She clearly is not a man.  LOL.

I think it might be a navy or general military thing.



Edit: Looked it up, and I'm wrong. I dunno, either it's just a Roddenberry thing or it was Kirk's way of saying "listen, I'm not going to sleep with you so I might as well just consider you a man".

If I remember correctly, Mr. Saavik was intended to be cast as a male; they just didn't change it in the script once Kirstie Alley was cast. Also, someone posted this on another forum and it sounds possible.

My guess as to the reason behind Star Trek's calling ranking officers "Sir" and "Mister" regardless of gender is that it is to avoid sex discrimination in their military system. In other words, "Sir" and "Mister" have become non-gender-discriminatory terms because they are equally applicable to each sex. This fits in nicely with a number of the somewhat radical, for the time, social views expressed in the original series.

[MetalJunkie]

Karl Urban let slip that Cumberbatch is playing Gary Mitchell. Whether he's bullshitting or not remains to be seen.

[El Barto]

I did a search and couldn't find this question.  I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time.  Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me.  This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"?  She clearly is not a man.  LOL.

I believe they just minimized the use of gender specific pronouns.  Same reason women were always called sir when their rank necessitated formal address.  I'd consider it another example of life in Roddenberry's perfect utopia, where gender no longer matters.

Karl Urban let slip that Cumberbatch is playing Gary Mitchell. Whether he's bullshitting or not remains to be seen.

If it had anything whatsoever to do with WNMHGB, I'd be pretty cool with it.  I thought it was a great episode, and Mitchell a great character.  JJA will find new and terrible ways to screw an otherwise fine story up.  Part of the appeal of the original was that Mitchell was good friends with Kirk, and to an extent, Spock.  I'll bet right now he's just some guy they stumble across in the movie. 


I'm right at the end of season 6 of Voyager, and there have been some noticeably weak episodes.  Much like the seventh season was the absolute worst of TNG, I'm starting to think that there's a shelf-life for Star Trek franchises.  You get to a point where you've told all the good stories, and you start having to reach.  Introducing Borg kiddos seems like a pretty hefty shark-jumping moment. 

[Adami]

Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.



But yea, I'm not sure where they'll take the Gary Mitchell thing. Maybe we'll even get a little reference to James R. Kirk hahaha.

[BlobVanDam]

The original episode was nothing special, so it's not like they're desecrating a classic like Khan or anything. Although I really wish they'd done something 100% original instead of needing to take ideas from a '60s television series.

[El Barto]

Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.

Because he's the one that'll insist on multiple space battles and tons of explosions.

As for the original, it had a good psychological and ethical subtext.  It also had somebody being necessitated to kill their good friend.  It might not have been Wrath of Kahn, but it had all the components of a very good TOS episode, which some of us still appreciate.

[Adami]

Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.

Because he's the one that'll insist on multiple space battles and tons of explosions.

Probably. But ruining characters and horrible dialogue is Kurtzman and Orci's fault.


I'm not trying to defend Abrams by the way. I'm trying to raise awareness as to the horribleness of Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci who are clearly the most horrible writers in hollywood today.

[BlobVanDam]

Not sure why you'd blame JJA for a bad story since he's not writing it and Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci are essentially the spawn of satan.

Because he's the one that'll insist on multiple space battles and tons of explosions.

As for the original, it had a good psychological and ethical subtext.  It also had somebody being necessitated to kill their good friend.  It might not have been Wrath of Kahn, but it had all the components of a very good TOS episode, which some of us still appreciate.

Even for TOS I found it to be average at best. And the story was the typical scifi cliches of power being evil, and everyone fearing things beyond them. All it's missing is evil robots being yelled to death by Kirk's mighty human logic.
A ton of TOS episodes would have the potential to be great movies (I'd actually say the vast majority), but Where No Man Has Gone Before is pretty tired and simple, especially by today's standards. Maybe they wanted to avoid stepping on one of the really good ones though, so I'm hoping they go in a different direction with it.

[Dublagent66]

I did a search and couldn't find this question.  I just saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on cable again for the millionth time.  Love this movie BTW, but something has always bugged me.  This may seem like a stupid question but why do they call Kirstie Alley's character "Mr. Saavik"?  She clearly is not a man.  LOL.

I think it might be a navy or general military thing.



Edit: Looked it up, and I'm wrong. I dunno, either it's just a Roddenberry thing or it was Kirk's way of saying "listen, I'm not going to sleep with you so I might as well just consider you a man".

If I remember correctly, Mr. Saavik was intended to be cast as a male; they just didn't change it in the script once Kirstie Alley was cast. Also, someone posted this on another forum and it sounds possible.

My guess as to the reason behind Star Trek's calling ranking officers "Sir" and "Mister" regardless of gender is that it is to avoid sex discrimination in their military system. In other words, "Sir" and "Mister" have become non-gender-discriminatory terms because they are equally applicable to each sex. This fits in nicely with a number of the somewhat radical, for the time, social views expressed in the original series.

Yeah,  if that's the case then I believe it might have been an oversight in the script.  She was also referred to as just "Saavik" and "Lieutenant Saavik" if my memory serves me correctly.  IMO, "Mr." just sounds ridiculous and unnecessary.  Oh well, I thought it was interesting.

[Orbert]

Wow, saying it was an "oversight" or that they just didn't bother changing the script really sounds lame, and honestly, it has never even occurred to me that that might be the case.  Even if the character was originally going to be male, no one noticed that they were calling an obviously female officer "Mister"?  When they reviewed the dailies, no one said "What the hell?  Why are they calling her 'Mister'?"

It had to have been intentional.  She's Mr. Saavik enough times to make the point, Lt. Saavik most of the time, or just Saavik to Spock.  There's no way that they oops forgot to change the script.

[El Barto]

Man, Unimatrix Zero is just shit.  Normally two part episodes are intended to be better than most and succeed, so it really bugs me when they're this bad (TNG was often guilty of that).  It's full of plot holes.  It's boring.  It's got that stupid Borg Queen and it continues their pussification in a big way.  It's only saving grace is that Anika Hansen is particularly hot, but that doesn't make up for 2 hours of stupidity. 

You know, if you're going to send your captain and head of security officer over to a Borg cube, don't ya think changing their command codes would be the most basic, common sense thing that you think to do?

[El Barto]

I've only skimmed it, but this seems an interesting read.  Voyager Writer's Bible
It's mostly the character profiles, but it's interesting how some of the qualities changed, and some are exactly like the finished product.  For the most part, they're very good descriptions of the principal characters.

Interestingly, Paris was intended to be Nick Lacarno.  They changed his name, but his background was exactly the same.  According to Memory-Alpha, they would have had to pay royalties to the writers of First Duty for every single episode Paris appeared in.  Those guys just missed out on a nice payday. 

[JayOctavarium]

I've only skimmed it, but this seems an interesting read.  Voyager Writer's Bible
It's mostly the character profiles, but it's interesting how some of the qualities changed, and some are exactly like the finished product.  For the most part, they're very good descriptions of the principal characters.

Awesomesauce

[El Barto]

Turns out such documents for each series are available here.  They all seem to be oriented towards the premiers.  It'd be interesting to see if such a thing existed for something like the Dominion War, or if it was made up completely as they went along. 

https://startrek.orbs.com/Series+Guides

[yorost]

They figured out the Dominion, and basics of the Dominion War, while working on season 2.  Up to that point they had left if open to see where the series was going.

[Kotowboy]

There is a rumour that Cumberbatch is playing Gary Mitchell in the Star Trek Sequel - so today I watched

" Where No Man Has Gone Before. "

Not a bad episode. Would need a lot more story to make a movie out of it. If he has God powers - how do you gain an advantage ?

The actor playing Gary Mitchell was really good though. Almost looked like the actor who played bones in Star Trek 2009 !

[El Barto]

We discussed that a couple of pages ago. I think it's a very good episode, but I have no confidence in the current group's ability to make it work. 

[jammindude]

I just watched the Star Trek reboot again...and I just have to say...as an old school fan who grew up with TOS...

The new movie is absolutely a stroke of genius.   I was *REALLY* skeptical.   Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of all of JJ's work.   Some of his stuff has been great, some not so great.   But he absolutely hit a home run with the Star Trek reboot.   

The biggest stroke of genius of all was the new timeline.   The thing that made me skeptical about the reboot in the first place was trying to live up to the canon.   But let's face it...the existing canon had become the proverbial "white elephant in the room".    The Star Trek "canon" had become such a big deal with fans, that it had completely stifled creativity.   You couldn't just write good stories because you constantly had to worry about whether or not you were staying within the lines of "canon"....

JJ's move to just *COMPLETELY THROW OUT* the "canon" was nothing short of brilliant.   Now that the white elephant is out of the room, he can write anything he wants...no rules, no boundaries.    I LOVE IT!

I can't wait for the next movie.   JJ has earned my complete confidence.   This reboot is now my #3 all time greatest Star Trek film, and may be single handedly responsible for pushing Star Trek past Star Wars once and for all.   

[Orbert]

You know, I'd never thought of it that way, but it does solve that particular problem, doesn't it?  I'll agree that it was a clever move, but since I only found the movie okay, I have to stop short of calling it brilliant.

[MetalJunkie]

I just watched the Star Trek reboot again...and I just have to say...as an old school fan who grew up with TOS...

The new movie is absolutely a stroke of genius.   I was *REALLY* skeptical.   Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of all of JJ's work.   Some of his stuff has been great, some not so great.   But he absolutely hit a home run with the Star Trek reboot.   

The biggest stroke of genius of all was the new timeline.   The thing that made me skeptical about the reboot in the first place was trying to live up to the canon.   But let's face it...the existing canon had become the proverbial "white elephant in the room".    The Star Trek "canon" had become such a big deal with fans, that it had completely stifled creativity.   You couldn't just write good stories because you constantly had to worry about whether or not you were staying within the lines of "canon"....

JJ's move to just *COMPLETELY THROW OUT* the "canon" was nothing short of brilliant.   Now that the white elephant is out of the room, he can write anything he wants...no rules, no boundaries.    I LOVE IT!

I can't wait for the next movie.   JJ has earned my complete confidence.   This reboot is now my #3 all time greatest Star Trek film, and may be single handedly responsible for pushing Star Trek past Star Wars once and for all.

I know we're in the minority, but I agree with this post entirely.

[Kotowboy]

I just watched the Star Trek reboot again...and I just have to say...as an old school fan who grew up with TOS...

The new movie is absolutely a stroke of genius.   I was *REALLY* skeptical.   Especially since I'm not the biggest fan of all of JJ's work.   Some of his stuff has been great, some not so great.   But he absolutely hit a home run with the Star Trek reboot.   

The biggest stroke of genius of all was the new timeline.   The thing that made me skeptical about the reboot in the first place was trying to live up to the canon.   But let's face it...the existing canon had become the proverbial "white elephant in the room".    The Star Trek "canon" had become such a big deal with fans, that it had completely stifled creativity.   You couldn't just write good stories because you constantly had to worry about whether or not you were staying within the lines of "canon"....

JJ's move to just *COMPLETELY THROW OUT* the "canon" was nothing short of brilliant.   Now that the white elephant is out of the room, he can write anything he wants...no rules, no boundaries.    I LOVE IT!

I can't wait for the next movie.   JJ has earned my complete confidence.   This reboot is now my #3 all time greatest Star Trek film, and may be single handedly responsible for pushing Star Trek past Star Wars once and for all.

Not only that but having Old Spock as the key tho the whole thing was like saying " We can't have our new timeline WITHOUT classic trek "

PLUS

It appeals to non Trekkers as it's a new timeline BUT appeases old Trek fans as it's not just trampling over everything that's come before.

I thought it was really smart personally.

My Second Favourite Trek after Khan. 

Star Trek 2009 was certainly a fuck load better than The Phantom Menace 

[El Barto]

It isn't the timeline thing that's the issue.  That was actually a creative solution to a real problem.  What screwed it all up was turning it into an action movie, rather than sci-fi.  I blame JJ Abrams.  Others here blame the writers.  Honestly, they're all to blame.  The premise was sound, but it was a pretty crappy movie overall. 

[Kotowboy]

Well most people say Star Trek is boring slow and stuffy. For once we got an exciting Trek movie that wasn't just spouting directives and board meetings.

It's a new version of Trek.

I've been a Trekker since I was tiny and I didn't have any issues with it. It was so much fun on the big screen.

[King Postwhore]

You know, when it came out in 2009 it was well received.  It's only here that I've read a larger group of fans not really liking the reboot.

[El Barto]

My thoughts on it from the original discussion.

As for the reboot:  J.J Abrams must die.   I really want to like it more than I do.  I think they could be onto something with it.  The casting was great.  I liked the story and even Captain Nero.  I don't have a problem with the new timeline,  although multiple canons will get confusing after a while.  It was just a horrible mess of story telling.  Abram's entire plan seemed to be throwback references and action sequences.  A lot of the references were actually pretty amusing,  but got stale fairly quickly.  As for the action sequences,  much like plenty of other modern action flicks,  so chaotic that they made no sense whatsoever.  I don't understand why they spend 20 million dollars on a CGI scene that happens so fast you can't even tell who's shooting at what.

And I think that's largely a function of what I dislike most about Abram's style with this.  It's shot to appear like you're in the middle of it.  It's Star Trek for the realty television segment.  Hand held cameras,  shaking all hell over the place,  and multiple lens flairs in every scene,  as if they had no control over the lighting.  I want to see the story unfold, not be a part of it.  It used to be that immersion came from the story,  and good filmmakers knew that their role should be to stay the fuck out the way.  Shame that's no longer the case.

I suspect every one of us that frequents this thread would rank Kahn as the best of the ST movies.  It was wonderful story telling, and didn't try to force you to be a part of it.  You cared about the characters and you were interested in the story.  Imagine if Kahn had been filmed by JJA, in the modern style.  Think about the two major battles in TWoK.  You've got Reliant bushwhacking Enterprise, and the battle of Mutara Nebula.  There was tension there.  There were people worried, scared and trying to think under pressure.  There were discussions about tactics.  Even though you were external to it all, you still felt every bit of the tension.  All of that was replaced by chaos in the reboot.  No talk.  No tactics.  No tension.  Just a shitload of explosions and lasers flying all over the place. 

Slow and deliberate isn't necessarily boring.  Fast and flashy isn't necessarily exciting.  In this case, Nick Meyer got it and JJ Abrams didn't.  As an interesting example of how well those things worked, I suspect that all of us here can recall the music during both of those Khan battles.  Does the reboot's music ring any bells?

[BlobVanDam]

Actually, for all the flaws of the new movie, the soundtrack is amazing. Can't remember the music for the battles from Khan, although I do like the soundtrack and I can recall the theme very easily off the top of my head (and Khan is my favourite Trek movie).

[abydos]

I liked the movie but it seemed more like a generic-scifi-hollywood-action-movie-3887878th rather than have a feeling of being Star Trek.

[Kotowboy]

I actually loved the Score for ST2009.

The scene where the shuttles were escaping from the Kelvin and the main title comes up is simply amazing with THAT score.

[jammindude]

RE: Khan battle scenes....

I would say there was a bit of both.   I will confess that it would be nice to see a bit of that comeback.   But Khan was not ALL tension...it was tension and release.   It was tension when they were hunting each other, and then sudden CHAOS when they found each other. 

(and Khan is my #2 film.   Insurrection is my all-time favorite for very personal reasons.  I have *no idea* why people hate on that film.  I thought it was every bit as good, and even better than First Contact)

[BlobVanDam]

First Contact is my favourite of the TNG movies, but I've always found Insurrection to be underrated, and I like it. It's a bit more of a low key movie, and probably wasn't the best follow up to the success of FC, but it's not a bad movie at all.
I understand the argument that people feel it's more like a double episode than a movie, and that's a valid enough point I suppose, but in itself I still enjoy it. I'd probably rank it around middle of the pack. Not one of the best, but far from the worst.

[yorost]

I suspect every one of us that frequents this thread would rank Kahn as the best of the ST movies.

Undiscovered Country.  ...or don't I frequent this thread enough?

[El Barto]

Same point applies.  Compare the scene with the two guys assassinating Gorkon to Kirk and Sulu assaulting that big drill thing.  One's deliberate and methodical and builds tension.  Ones 4 minutes of falling, screaming, sword fighting, falling some more, then a sudden rescue.

[Kotowboy]

Lets list the problems with Nemesis here !!!

1. How about - having an action director who knew nothing about Trek at all ?  Great !!

2.It's a blatant Khan rip-off !!!

[yorost]

It was a blatant Khan rip off?  You lost me, I never noticed.

[Kotowboy]

Not sure if sarcasm due to absolutely blatant khan copying.. ?

1.Genetically engineered villain.

2.Massive weapon that destroys whatever it touches.

3.Death of crew member.

4.Download of aforementioned crew members psyche into new host.

5.Battle in a nebula at the end.

6.The mention of Romulan Ale.

I can't think of any others right this minute but there are more.