Author Topic: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)  (Read 430338 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3640 on: June 29, 2013, 10:20:08 AM »
I wouldn't say Year of Hell or Blink of an Eye are well below the other series' best at all, especially TOS. Voyager pushed forward in different areas, and many of those episodes are things the other series never managed as well. Course: Oblivion was a good episode, but they had plenty of much better episodes.

However, Distant Origin was stupid on every single possible level. It was a nice idea in theory, but it was so transparently executed, and most of Voyager's part in the episode was revealing the ridiculous notion of dinosaurs developing space flight and moving to the DQ millions of years ago, and idea so utterly preposterous that not even TOS would have touched that one with a 10 foot pole, and this is a series that had Nazi planet, US constitution planet, Jesus planet etc etc. All I can think of is the Robot Chicken skit that is basically the same idea of dinosaurs developing rockets. :lol

The only credit I can give to that episode is having the balls to have the opening 1/3 of the episode entirely take place with new characters/settings, and having a downer ending. I know Spock's Brain gets lumped as the worst episode of Trek (when it's not even that bad for TOS), but this episode makes it look like TWOK by comparison. :lol
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3641 on: June 29, 2013, 10:49:35 AM »
Now I have to watch it :P

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3642 on: June 29, 2013, 03:18:26 PM »
I wouldn't put Year of Hell amongst the series' best either, mainly because the ending is a typical time travel/reset button/copout/bullshit ending. Especially after all the hints and foreshadowing that this was going to be some tough shit and then they have an ending like that?

Typical Voyager weaksauce ending.

I really do need to rewatch Voyager though.  It's been a long time since I watched the show, which was back when it was first airing on television.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3643 on: June 30, 2013, 10:15:23 AM »
I can't watch Voyager as well as TNG.

I just don't care about anyone on board Voyager. Unlike TNG.

The only interesting one on Voyager is the Doc.

Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3644 on: June 30, 2013, 10:25:15 AM »
I have to say after watching DS9 (I am almost done with season 6), I find DS9 to be the strongest series... but Voyager, which is weaker no IMO, had the best concept.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3645 on: June 30, 2013, 11:02:35 AM »
Voyager had a good premise - it was literally where no one had gone before - but they did precisely fuck all with it.

Most of the stories could have been done on Enterprise D in the Alpha Quadrant.

i wonder if any of Voyager's scripts were unused TNG or DS9 episodes that weren't up to scratch and they just re-jigged the characters...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:48:14 AM by Kotowboy »

Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3646 on: June 30, 2013, 02:11:22 PM »
Voyager gad a good premise - it was literally where no one had gone before - but they did precisely fuck all with it.

Most of the stories could have been done on Enterprise D in the Alpha Quadrant.
What exactly would a non-Alpha quadrant story look like? That makes no sense. I'd say a more correct statement is that half of TNG and DS9 episodes could have just as easily been done in the Delta Quadrant. Unknown aliens and weird spacial phenomena.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3647 on: June 30, 2013, 02:16:26 PM »
I'm just saying that most of Voyager's episodes could have been done on TNG. They didn't need to be 75,000 Light years from home.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3648 on: June 30, 2013, 03:14:30 PM »
They were on the other side of the galaxy.  Many expected aliens that were "totally different" -- whatever that means.  Incredibly huge, or with bizarre physiologies, or something.  Intead, we generally got the same "forehead aliens of the week" that plagued all other Star Trek shows.  Heck, the Kazon were basically Klingons on bad hair days.

There was Species 8472, which was quite different.  And I suppose that running into The Borg made some sense.  But what else did we get that was truly alien?  The giant "virus" which made no sense.  I'm trying to think of others.

Also, I read an interview very early in the first season wherein the powers-that-be mentioned the obvious pitfall to avoid, the "Gilligan's Island Syndrome".  Each week, they'd encounter some unexpected way to possibly get home, but it would always get botched.  Okay, they didn't do that every week, but I seem to recall a few episodes that more or less fell into that category.

In the same interview, they mentioned that hopefully they'd go five to seven seasons, during which time, while the distance seemed insurmountable, there would also be a feeling that they were making progress the whole time.  A reason to keep hopes up.  I think we got a shortcut or two, which was good.  Too many would have been silly, so they had to strike a balance.  But overall, it just felt like they spent seven years going nowhere, then suddenly at the end there was a miraculous, unexpected break, and they took it.  Ta-da, we're home, fade to black.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3649 on: June 30, 2013, 05:55:49 PM »
Voyager was the worst offender for THE END type shows.

I really hate when episodes just END with no wrap up or epilogue. Just TRY THIS IT WORKED THE END.

It just makes you feel like you invest ed that time in the episode for nothing.

TNG mostly had good wrap ups at the end.

Voyager's Journey's End wrap up was basically YAY WE'RE HOME THE END>

Terrible. No sense of closure at all. Could at least have showed them back on earth with families for a 5 minute montage.

Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3650 on: June 30, 2013, 06:59:08 PM »
All Star Trek series suffer from contrived endings. I don't think VOY was any worse than the others in that regard. Hell, I'm watching one of the very worst offenders right now. Data cures a virus and then everything's back to normal. Even the damage they did while they were infected disappears.

Part of the problem is that characters aren't supposed to die, so you have to limit consequences. No matter how dire the situation, you always know that Picard, Kira or Paris aren't going to die. Factor in that TNG didn't like killing crewmembers, and VOY couldn't spare them, you generally have to wrap things up without too many negative effects.

As for the Delta Quadrant aliens, I'm not sure why they need to be any different than any other aliens. If that were the case, then shouldn't the Gamma Quadrant aliens have been similarly different? Besides which, we're talking about a pretty cheap syndicated show, with most of the budget going to fancy-ass CGI. Goofy foreheads are a cheap tactic that all of the shows have employed for that reason. 
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3651 on: June 30, 2013, 07:44:06 PM »
Yeah, all of those particular flaws applied to all Trek (and a lot of scifi in general that has to cram a story into 45 minutes or so), but the only one that really bothered me was in Endgame.
That episode really needed a more thorough ending than just appearing at Earth and that's it. Totally cock blocked any sense of closure despite them getting home. DS9 is an example of how to do a final episode perfectly. I don't think I can fault that finale.

Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline rumborak

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3652 on: June 30, 2013, 10:37:29 PM »
I'm watching "Relics" right now, and iv really don't like the episode. It's a shame that Doohan's last (was it actually?) Star Trek appearance portrayed him as a whiny loser unable to face the changing times.

EDIT: Apparently Relics came out one month before ST: TUD.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 10:43:53 PM by rumborak »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3653 on: June 30, 2013, 10:42:48 PM »
Generations was after that, not that it counts for much.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline rumborak

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3654 on: June 30, 2013, 10:46:19 PM »
On a side note, it's interesting that Kirk, Picard and Sisko stood on the original Enterprise bridge.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3655 on: June 30, 2013, 10:54:05 PM »
And Archer sorta did. It was an identical set/ship, but technically it was the USS Defiant (not to be confused with the DS9 Defiant).
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3656 on: June 30, 2013, 11:32:35 PM »
I'm watching "Relics" right now, and iv really don't like the episode. It's a shame that Doohan's last (was it actually?) Star Trek appearance portrayed him as a whiny loser unable to face the changing times.
Indeed. A couple of weeks ago I DL'ed every TNG episode I might be interested in watching. Turned out to be 68, or a little over 1/3 of the series that I don't think sucks. Relics was in there, but I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. Like you said, it's really kind of a bummer of an episode. Particularly since the original Scotty could be a pretty rough guy.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3657 on: July 01, 2013, 06:50:08 AM »
Yeah, all of those particular flaws applied to all Trek (and a lot of scifi in general that has to cram a story into 45 minutes or so), but the only one that really bothered me was in Endgame.
That episode really needed a more thorough ending than just appearing at Earth and that's it. Totally cock blocked any sense of closure despite them getting home. DS9 is an example of how to do a final episode perfectly. I don't think I can fault that finale.

If I was a crew member on Voyager and got home after 7 years of space travel - I don't think i'd want to set foot on a starship again :P

You'd just be too worried about lightning striking twice !

Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3658 on: July 04, 2013, 01:01:53 AM »
Part 2 of Descent is one of the very worst episodes of TNG ever made. I don't know what it is, but they just suck at season premiers. The cliffhanger parts are always just fine, but the continuations always blow. And it just seems to be the season premier ones. The occasional middle of the season two parters are usually quite good. Unification, Chain of Command, Birthright, Gambit, all just fine. Best of Both worlds, Times Arrow, Descent, all just fine for the first part, and miserable for the conclusion. Only Redemption breaks that mold, and even that had too much Lursa and Betor; lousy characters.

I can't help but think that if Kirk had ever left the ship and taken everybody but McCoy and left him in charge of things, people here would be having kittens about how fucking asinine it was. Picard is supposed to be some god among men as a captain, and yet he thinks he's better suited to searching a planet than any other officer on board?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3659 on: July 04, 2013, 08:50:32 AM »
The captain got to be the captain by virtue of his experience.  With that comes great responsibility of course, but also privilege.  If he feels like leading the away team, that's his prerogative.  He's gone on countless away teams before now, and led many of the recent ones.  You don't leave that kind of experience on the ship and send someone else.

If I spent my entire life working my way up the ranks to captain of the flagship, only to discover that my job now consists of sitting in a chair watching a big screen, telling someone else where to fly the ship, telling someone else to go down to the planet and check things out, reading reports and making "important" decisions, I'd be bored as hell.  I'm the captain, I'm putting someone else in charge of the ship for a few hours, and I'm heading down to the planet to check things out.  I have more experience in this kind of thing than anyone else on board, and no one's gonna question my orders.

Offline jammindude

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3660 on: July 04, 2013, 09:25:44 AM »
and even that had too much Lursa and Betor; lousy characters.

:(

I could watch an entire episode of just those two...facing the camera....on mute.....


(ok...with bags over their heads.)   :rollin

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Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3661 on: July 04, 2013, 09:38:38 AM »
The captain got to be the captain by virtue of his experience.  With that comes great responsibility of course, but also privilege.  If he feels like leading the away team, that's his prerogative.  He's gone on countless away teams before now, and led many of the recent ones.  You don't leave that kind of experience on the ship and send someone else.

If I spent my entire life working my way up the ranks to captain of the flagship, only to discover that my job now consists of sitting in a chair watching a big screen, telling someone else where to fly the ship, telling someone else to go down to the planet and check things out, reading reports and making "important" decisions, I'd be bored as hell.  I'm the captain, I'm putting someone else in charge of the ship for a few hours, and I'm heading down to the planet to check things out.  I have more experience in this kind of thing than anyone else on board, and no one's gonna question my orders.
They were in a hostile environment. That seals the deal. In any fleet in the history of the universe he'd have been court-martialed.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3662 on: July 04, 2013, 10:01:25 AM »
The captain got to be the captain by virtue of his experience.  With that comes great responsibility of course, but also privilege.  If he feels like leading the away team, that's his prerogative.  He's gone on countless away teams before now, and led many of the recent ones.  You don't leave that kind of experience on the ship and send someone else.

If I spent my entire life working my way up the ranks to captain of the flagship, only to discover that my job now consists of sitting in a chair watching a big screen, telling someone else where to fly the ship, telling someone else to go down to the planet and check things out, reading reports and making "important" decisions, I'd be bored as hell.  I'm the captain, I'm putting someone else in charge of the ship for a few hours, and I'm heading down to the planet to check things out.  I have more experience in this kind of thing than anyone else on board, and no one's gonna question my orders.
They were in a hostile environment. That seals the deal. In any fleet in the history of the universe he'd have been court-martialed.

Like that *ever* stopped Kirk...
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Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3663 on: July 04, 2013, 10:10:18 AM »
Like I said, if Kirk had done that people here would never stop blasting him over it. Kirk always had qualified command officers run the shop.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3664 on: July 04, 2013, 10:41:44 AM »
Like I said, if Kirk had done that people here would never stop blasting him over it. Kirk always had qualified command officers run the shop.

I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure Kirk left people of even lesser status in charge on TOS.   Sometimes he would bring ALL the officers back from an away team and some random nobody had to get out of the captains chair to let him sit down.    And wasn't Scotty left in charge a couple of times?  Isn't he even lower on the totem pole than McCoy?    Last I checked, the doctor is a ship's officer... 

I never really thought about it...but I don't think it would be weird if he did leave McCoy in charge....certainly not a court martial offence.
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Offline yorost

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3665 on: July 04, 2013, 10:59:01 AM »
Should I mention that Crusher was captain of a ship in All Good Things? The show made a point, at least at some point, that she was qualified to captain a ship. Maybe it they went that way to explain away Descent, but there were at least a few times the show put her in charge.

Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3666 on: July 04, 2013, 12:05:43 PM »
Like I said, if Kirk had done that people here would never stop blasting him over it. Kirk always had qualified command officers run the shop.

I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure Kirk left people of even lesser status in charge on TOS.   Sometimes he would bring ALL the officers back from an away team and some random nobody had to get out of the captains chair to let him sit down.    And wasn't Scotty left in charge a couple of times?  Isn't he even lower on the totem pole than McCoy?    Last I checked, the doctor is a ship's officer... 
Scott was a commander, the same rank as Riker or Data, and was second officer. He would always be 3rd in line. Sulu was only a lieutenant, but bridge officers are going to rank higher in the CoC. Not sure what DeSalle's story was, but I would assume that he was a command level officer, as well.

And to be fair, I'm not necessarily saying that Crusher wasn't qualified. I'm saying they had been attacked by the Borg, they could reasonably expect to be attacked again, and the search parties didn't require the ship's captain to leave the ship. It was a stupid contrivence made up to add an unnecessary dramatic element (that was quite frankly cheesy anyway).
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3667 on: July 04, 2013, 12:43:32 PM »
Part 2 of Descent is one of the very worst episodes of TNG ever made. I don't know what it is, but they just suck at season premiers. The cliffhanger parts are always just fine, but the continuations always blow. And it just seems to be the season premier ones. The occasional middle of the season two parters are usually quite good. Unification, Chain of Command, Birthright, Gambit, all just fine. Best of Both worlds, Times Arrow, Descent, all just fine for the first part, and miserable for the conclusion. Only Redemption breaks that mold, and even that had too much Lursa and Betor; lousy characters.

I can't help but think that if Kirk had ever left the ship and taken everybody but McCoy and left him in charge of things, people here would be having kittens about how fucking asinine it was. Picard is supposed to be some god among men as a captain, and yet he thinks he's better suited to searching a planet than any other officer on board?
Hey, whoa, let's not get crazy now. Part 2 was not as good as Part 1 but it certainly wasn't miserable.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3668 on: July 04, 2013, 05:15:36 PM »
I'm on the episode now where Fanke Janssen plays a space hussy.

Offline jammindude

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3669 on: July 04, 2013, 05:19:24 PM »
I'm on the episode now where Fanke Janssen plays a space hussy.

**DROOL**

One of my favorites.   She's not that cute...but her character is a dream come true!
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3670 on: July 04, 2013, 05:22:04 PM »
Her character is annoying though !


She reminds me of a few times when you get approached by pissed up bints when you're out and about.  :lol

" Awright maaaaaate "

" piss off please - I'l catch an STD just from looking at you. "  :xbones





" Darmok " now.

Darmok & Jalad At Tenagra  :omg:

I knew I recognised the Tamarian captain - had to look him up to find out he was Capt. Terrell from Wrath of Khan.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 06:19:46 PM by Kotowboy »

Offline rumborak

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3671 on: July 05, 2013, 01:25:35 PM »
I don't share the dislike for Descent. Yes, the individualist Borg were a bit lame, but the "Lore manipulates his brother to turn on his friends" was good IMHO. Very sinister, and not a plot type you see very often in TV shows.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3672 on: July 05, 2013, 01:53:34 PM »
I don't share the dislike for Descent. Yes, the individualist Borg were a bit lame, but the "Lore manipulates his brother to turn on his friends" was good IMHO. Very sinister, and not a plot type you see very often in TV shows.
If it had just been a Lore episode, it might have been a little better, although I think Lore's a terrible character. All of the elements though make for a pretty lousy episode. You had the Borg thing. You had the terrible Crusher subplot. Worst of all, the ease with which Data flipped. All it takes is to give him a sample taste of bloodlust and he's instantly ready to whack Geordi? Seems implausible for him to become so irrational so easily.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3673 on: July 05, 2013, 02:46:03 PM »
I definitely agree with the latter, but the ease with which Data was manipulated (activate homing signal = Data takes control of Enterprise) falls nicely into the habit of Star Trek to define a character by quality X, and then almost exclusively do episodes about how they are *not* X. I'm right now trying to think of the number of episodes where Data was manipulated to act differently, there are so many of them. On top of Descent and "Brothers": Masks, A Fistful of Datas...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 02:51:31 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)
« Reply #3674 on: July 05, 2013, 03:17:21 PM »
TNG Rule - Conversations last exactly as long as the turbolift journey.


Also - a computer or terminal / communication will occur the moment a conversation is over.


Almost watched the entirety of Season 5 of TNG. It's got some great episodes that's for sure.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 04:38:00 PM by Kotowboy »