All Star Trek Discussion Thread ("Into Darkness" trailer released)

[Kotowboy]

That epiosde where Wes performs the illegal Starburst manoeuvre has Tom Paris in as someone else.

They don't even try to make him look different in Voyager.


Bit weird.

[Orbert]

Nick Locarno (the original TNG character) was supposed to be in Voyager, but there was an issue and they had to change his name, so he became Tom Paris.  Same actor, basically the same character.

I believe the problem (discussed somewhere here in the preceding 100 pages) was that the guys who wrote the TNG episode "owned" the character of Nick Locarno, so Paramount would have to slide them some cash for every episode of Voyager that he appears in, which is all of them, since he was to be main cast.  Paramount danced around that by changing his name.  It would have been a nice way to link the two series, but oh well.

Similarly, Kira on Deep Space 9 was originally supposed to be Ro from TNG, which also would have been a nice link.

[yorost]

Well, the character was changed after Forbes declined to do the show. Kira wasn't Ro, v. 2.

[El Barto]

I believe the problem (discussed somewhere here in the preceding 100 pages) was that the guys who wrote the TNG episode "owned" the character of Nick Locarno, so Paramount would have to slide them some cash for every episode of Voyager that he appears in, which is all of them, since he was to be main cast.  Paramount danced around that by changing his name.  It would have been a nice way to link the two series, but oh well.

Yup. Carrying on the Roddenberry legacy by ripping off those who contribute.

Before a shitstorm develops, I'll say that I'm cool with changing Locarno to Paris for those reasons. Still, this sort of thing went on quite a bit.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.

Close enough! It's a Starfleet ship being taken from right under their noses by a nobody.

[yorost]

Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.

Close enough! It's a Starfleet ship being taken from right under their noses by a nobody.

I think you only read the first 4 or 5 words I wrote. Unless it's another scene I can't remember, he didn't steal a Starfleet vessel of any kind.

--------

Which ones were stolen on DS9, anyways? Bashir changeling and Tom Riker with the Defiant are the only two I can think of where someone got away with it. Kira let her terrorist friend "steal" one. Odo caught Garak stealing one and another Gamma-guy stealing one.

Thought of another one, cloned O'Brien stole one. DS9 sure liked mimics stealing their ships.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, runabouts aren't shuttlecraft, but do you mean at the end of the episode when he's killed by the Bajorans? I'm pretty sure that's not a runabout. He stole one his own people's ships, presumably one he had fairly free access to, already.

Close enough! It's a Starfleet ship being taken from right under their noses by a nobody.

I think you only read the first 4 or 5 words I wrote. Unless it's another scene I can't remember, he didn't steal a Starfleet vessel of any kind.

Oh, right (just woke up, skimmed it badly). I saw the episode again only recently and assumed it was Starfleet. I guess it's sometimes hard to tell when they skimp out and only show it as bleeps on the radar screen. My bad?

[rumborak]

Hah, Data just delivered one of his best lines: "I presume your handprint opens this door whether you are conscious or not?"

[Kotowboy]

Is that from The Most Toys ?

[El Barto]

Is that from The Most Toys ?

No, but that was my first guess, as well. They both aired pretty close together.

It was when the time traveler showed up claiming to be a historian from the future, but was from the past looking to steal some gadgetry.

[Dream Team]

For all the Voyager fans:

https://www.rogerebert.com/balder-and-dash/now-voyager-the-least-beloved-star-trek-offered-some-of-the-franchises-strongest-feminist-messages

[El Barto]

Well, I certainly wouldn't consider it less beloved than Enterprise. While plenty of people hate it, plenty of people also thought it was very good. Nobody liked Enterprise.

As for why people hate it, I'm not sure. The fact that those same people tend to adore TNG, which was incredibly bland, does baffle me. I will say that I thought it was pretty bad, originally. It wasn't until I went back and rewatched it that I decided it was much better than originally thought.

[Orbert]

Interesting.  Obviously, Voyager is the one and only series with a female captain, but I guess I'd never really thought about the fact that all the strong characters and pretty much all the interesting ones were female.  7 of 9 was basically brought on to be eye candy, but her "deassimilation" or whatever you call it led to some great storylines and added some unique to her character.  Torres, as "the half-alien whose background must be explored" was pretty good, too.

The only exception IMO was The Doctor, who had his own interesting and unique journey.  Let's face it: Chakotay, Paris, and Kim were all wimp losers.  Neelix was just annoying.  Tuvok was a great character, and I thought Tim Russ' portrayal was excellent, but he never did anything.  The most interesting male character was Ensign Suter, who gets a Purple Heart for his actions during the Year of Hell, but it has to be posthumous because you don't waste an awesome actor like Brad Dourif on episodic TV.

[El Barto]

Suder was dead during the Year of Hell. Don't know if the period where the Kazon controlled Voyager has a name.

[Kotowboy]

Is that from The Most Toys ?

No, but that was my first guess, as well. They both aired pretty close together.

It was when the time traveler showed up claiming to be a historian from the future, but was from the past looking to steal some gadgetry.

Cool - i might watch that one tonight then x

[Orbert]

Suder was dead during the Year of Hell. Don't know if the period where the Kazon controlled Voyager has a name.

I must be confusing Year of Hell with some other two-part arc.  I remember that it was a two-part story.

[Kotowboy]

Is that from The Most Toys ?

No, but that was my first guess, as well. They both aired pretty close together.

It was when the time traveler showed up claiming to be a historian from the future, but was from the past looking to steal some gadgetry.

Also Picard mentions Khan Singh. As far as I know - the only time he is mentioned.

[El Barto]

Suder's heroism and death were in Basics parts 1 and 2. The last episode featuring the Kazon, where they steal Voyager and strand the crew on some planet full of cavemen. Paris, Suder and the Doctor retake Voyager with the help of a shipful of Neelixes.

The other thing that made me laugh from the Maxx Headroom episode was when he asked for Picard to move before transporting over.

[Kotowboy]

I remember when I used to get Matt Frewer and Dwight Schultz confused.

They're quite similar in some ways.



Also - the episode where Picard is summoned to a secret rendezvous where he is warned of strange behaviour in Starfleet HQ.

And then he turns up and they sit down to eat worms.

The scene where they phaser that guy to death and he basically disintegrates was *always* cut on TV.

First time i've ever seen it in all it's gory glory. It's quite graphic for a 6pm watershed !

[Orbert]

Conspiracy.  Yeah, that was a sweet episode.  When it first aired, it wasn't cut, and I remember thinking (1) pretty decent special effects for TV, and (2) wow, that was pretty gross!

[BlobVanDam]

Well, I certainly wouldn't consider it less beloved than Enterprise. While plenty of people hate it, plenty of people also thought it was very good. Nobody liked Enterprise.

Agreed. Enterprise is definitely the least liked, even by a majority of Trekkies. Voyager would be next behind that, but it's still a pretty big gap between the two.

Voyager is probably my favourite Trek series, actually. Not that I'd call it the best by any stretch considering all of its flaws, but for some reason I find it the most enjoyable to come back to for individual episodes. Even though I'd say DS9 was the strongest series, I don't find it quite as enjoyable when you take an individual episode out of context of the story arcs.
But that's just my personal preference, since I enjoy the technology / spaceship stuff, and Voyager was able to do a lot more of that than the earlier series that didn't have CGI.

[El Barto]

Voyager is probably my favourite Trek series, actually. Not that I'd call it the best by any stretch considering all of its flaws, but for some reason I find it the most enjoyable to come back to for individual episodes. Even though I'd say DS9 was the strongest series, I don't find it quite as enjoyable when you take an individual episode out of context of the story arcs.

Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. I think where there's a difference is that while the day in, day out Voyager episodes tend to be better, the very best Voyager episodes can't compare with the best of TNG, DS9 or even TOS for that matter. All of the series had some real stinkers,  some very good episodes, and a whole lot of average, probably at the same ratio. At the same time, when you think of great Star Trek, there are a handful of standout episodes:
Doomsday Machine
City on the Edge of Forever
Inner Light
Defector
Visitor
Pale Moonlight

What Voyager episode can you put on the same list as Pale Moonlight? There were plenty of very good ones, but none that really compare.



On a different note, it's a shame Data was never in command more often. Both times he's the captain of a ship he's a real hoot. They should have found a way to better utilize that.

[BlobVanDam]

I'd rank plenty of Voyager episodes up there among Trek's best. Off the top of my head I'd say Timeless, Year of Hell, Before and After, Counterpoint, Critical Care, Real Life, Latent Image.
Are they as good as In The Pale Moonlight? No, but then again, neither is anything from TOS. TBH there are only a handful of TOS I can even take seriously as science fiction at all, let alone legitimately consider ranking among Trek's best (although City on the Edge of Forever is definitely one of the greats that I watch regularly), so the thought of Voyager episodes not comparing to that is laughable.

I'm not saying Voyager was the best series by any means, but when it hit the mark (which was still pretty often), it was definitely up there with Trek's best output. The show had clear flaws, but they learned how to play to their strengths, and minimize some of the weaknesses, and even managed certain types of episodes better than any other Trek series.

[Kotowboy]

One of my favourite Voyager episodes is Blink Of An Eye.

I like the idea of a couple of days for Voyager being centuries for the people on the planet.

But Voyager's worst ( Threshold ) is still way worse than TNG's worst ( Genesis ).

[BlobVanDam]

One of my favourite Voyager episodes is Blink Of An Eye.

I like the idea of a couple of days for Voyager being centuries for the people on the planet.

But Voyager's worst ( Threshold ) is still way worse than TNG's worst ( Genesis ).

Threshold does indeed suck big donkey balls, but TNG had its share of equally sucky episodes too. And I think Distant Origin is a worse episode than Threshold anyway. My first thought was Genesis, which is every bit as bad, and also the episode where there's some video encoded in the DNA of every species by some "god" race that happens to run on a tricorder, or some shit like that. Awful, awful episode.
Geez, I guess Trek really doesn't understand evolution at all, because they always make terrible episodes from it.

I almost mentioned Blink of an Eye too. One of my favourite Voyager episodes.

[jingle.boy]

One of my favourite Voyager episodes is Blink Of An Eye.

I like the idea of a couple of days for Voyager being centuries for the people on the planet.

But Voyager's worst ( Threshold ) is still way worse than TNG's worst ( Genesis ).

Threshold does indeed suck big donkey balls, but TNG had its share of equally sucky episodethere's s too. And I think Distant Origin is a worse episode than Threshold anyway. My first thought was Genesis, which is every bit as bad, and also the episode where some video encoded in the DNA of every species by some "god" race that happens to run on a tricorder, or some shit like that. Awful, awful episode.
Geez, I guess Trek really doesn't understand evolution at all, because they always make terrible episodes from it.

I almost mentioned Blink of an Eye too. One of my favourite Voyager episodes.

Oh lord, I remember that episode... Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, Humans... all racing to get the sequence, all thinking it was some super power, and it's a 30 second video clip of "why can't we all just get along?"

[King Postwhore]

I liked Voyager as well but I'd say my favorite show was DS9.  They have my 2 favorite episodes of all time,

Far Beyond The Stars & Take Me Out to the Holosuite.

[BlobVanDam]

I liked Voyager as well but I'd say my favorite show was DS9.  They have my 2 favorite episodes of all time,

Far Beyond The Stars & Take Me Out to the Holosuite.

Ooooooh don't get me started on that episode, king. One of the very few duds of DS9 imo. You're right in the thick of the Dominion war, but you can waste two weeks training for some dead sport just because the other kid said you were no good? Bah! Scifi and sports should be mutually exclusive viewing!

[Kotowboy]

Geez, I guess Trek really doesn't understand evolution at all, because they always make terrible episodes from it.

Ironic considering Roddenberry was not religious - he sure did make evolution look like a heap of balls.

[King Postwhore]

hehehehe.  I don't know, I just love when a ST episode is a little different.  You know goes where no man has gone before?

[BlobVanDam]

hehehehe.  I don't know, I just love when a ST episode is a little different.  You know goes where no man has gone before?

I dislike sports (typical nerd, really), so it should come as no surprise that it wasn't exactly my favourite episode.
I prefer the trippy science fictiony stuff, with spacial anomalies, and teasers where you don't know what the hell is going on. Episodes where they're recreating my worst nightmares, not so much.

[King Postwhore]

So pretty much like Work then.  I loved his reaction playing the game. but you are right that the  Dominion war was for me, the defining moment for all series.  It was so well done.

[BlobVanDam]

So pretty much like Work then.  I loved his reaction playing the game. but you are right that the  Dominion war was for me, the defining moment for all series.  It was so well done.

Work...... yeah, I've heard of him. He was that Klingon guy that came over from TNG, right?

[King Postwhore]

FUUUUUUUU...........

Worf dammit! 

[El Barto]

I'd rank plenty of Voyager episodes up there among Trek's best. Off the top of my head I'd say Timeless, Year of Hell, Before and After, Counterpoint, Critical Care, Real Life, Latent Image.

Year of Hell and Blink of an Eye are excellent episodes. At the same time, they're still well below the best of the other series best, IMO. Most of the ones I listed really pushed ST to a whole new level, and VOY never did that. Probably the closest they came to really hitting one out of the park was Destination Oblivion, or whatever it was called.

Distant Origin was a pretty good episode which suffered from a horribly stupid premise. The old science vs dogma argument is perfect grist for sci-fi and Star Trek tended to do it pretty well. In this case the whole Planet of the Apes theme was carried out pretty well. If they'd used anything but sentient dinosaurs it'd have been fine. TNG did the same episode without that pretext in First Contact and it worked great.

The only thing that made TMOttH watchable was Worf shouting death to the opposition! Without that one line we'd all be talking about how rotten an episode it was.