Author Topic: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional  (Read 6600 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2010, 12:14:40 AM »
How do you address that? Make it not so insanely hard (and expensive) to become a doctor? Student Loan forgiveness for people who practice in areas where doctors are needed? I'm just curious what some of the suggestions would be.

Online lordxizor

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 06:19:07 AM »
As time has gone on El Barto,  We've gone in 15 years from $32 for a family, with no deductible to $89 with $1000 deductible now. I think good old fashion competition between companies would drive down the price.  Mabye I'm a bit naive but I can shop around for a lot of thinks  like home oil (saved 23 cents per gallon this year).

You pay $89 a month for health insurance for a family?????
Where did you get your policy?  Out of the back of a van?
Dental and Glasses at included, but I had all that 15 years ago also.
I think his point is that $89 is insanely cheap these days. You don't have a thing to complain about. My family plan is almost $500 a month and I've got a deductable too. My insurance costs have nearly doubled in the last 3 years!

And as far as your workplace plan is concerned, your company shops around for the best deal. It's not like they're locked in to a certain company and are forced to pay whatever they dictate.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 06:28:29 AM by lordxizor »

Online lordxizor

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2010, 06:27:14 AM »
How do you address that? Make it not so insanely hard (and expensive) to become a doctor? Student Loan forgiveness for people who practice in areas where doctors are needed? I'm just curious what some of the suggestions would be.
Student loans and malpractice insurance are often cited as reasons for high medical costs, but I don't think that has a lot to do with it. Its a system wide problem. Everything from the equipment to the doctors to the facility to the devices used are all insanely expensive.

My son had a 45 minute minor surgery earlier this year and the bill was like $17k. We were in and out of the hospital in about 2 hours and it cost $17k for 45 minutes of the doctors time and a few stitches. A five minute consult with the doctor at the clinic costs $150? WTF!

The biggest problem I can see is that the insurance companies we hire for ourselves don't fight on our behalf. They should be outraged at having to pay such high prices, but they're not. They pay the high bills to justify keeping a larger profit for themselves in the process.

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2010, 08:10:37 AM »
As time has gone on El Barto,  We've gone in 15 years from $32 for a family, with no deductible to $89 with $1000 deductible now. I think good old fashion competition between companies would drive down the price.  Mabye I'm a bit naive but I can shop around for a lot of thinks  like home oil (saved 23 cents per gallon this year).

You pay $89 a month for health insurance for a family?????
Where did you get your policy?  Out of the back of a van?
Dental and Glasses at included, but I had all that 15 years ago also.
I think his point is that $89 is insanely cheap these days. You don't have a thing to complain about. My family plan is almost $500 a month and I've got a deductable too. My insurance costs have nearly doubled in the last 3 years!

And as far as your workplace plan is concerned, your company shops around for the best deal. It's not like they're locked in to a certain company and are forced to pay whatever they dictate.

That's weekly lordxizor.  So I'm close to you.  It's still too high.
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Online lordxizor

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2010, 08:14:18 AM »
That's weekly lordxizor.  So I'm close to you.  It's still too high.
Ah. That makes more sense. I was about to start applying for job where you work. :)

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2010, 08:18:00 AM »
That's weekly lordxizor.  So I'm close to you.  It's still too high.
Ah. That makes more sense. I was about to start applying for job where you work. :)

The doors are closing at the end of the month so DON'T DO IT.  I'm out of a job.  My wife has the insurance so that's ok.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2010, 08:21:00 AM »
How do you address that? Make it not so insanely hard (and expensive) to become a doctor? Student Loan forgiveness for people who practice in areas where doctors are needed? I'm just curious what some of the suggestions would be.
While hiking in the Rockies a few months ago, I formulated a five point plan to lower health care costs.  Despite being remarkably simple and practical, the powers that be would never allow it to happen in this country.  More money in the system benefits them, so we get screwed.

I've got a busy morning, but I'll find the time this afternoon to lay it all out.
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Offline j

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2010, 09:48:24 AM »
How do you address that? Make it not so insanely hard (and expensive) to become a doctor? Student Loan forgiveness for people who practice in areas where doctors are needed? I'm just curious what some of the suggestions would be.

The nature of being a physician necessitates that it be difficult, if only for "quality control" reasons.  Not only that, but a facility and the resources to train medical students are obscenely expensive.  There are 8 (9 if you count the D.O. school) medical schools in Texas, and that is a LOT; I think maybe New York only has more.  Class sizes are small, around 150 students per year.

Trust me, I wish I didn't have to incur such a huge debt, and I recognize that it's directly linked to medical costs, but as for the rigorous med school admissions process, I understand its necessity.

Student loans and malpractice insurance are often cited as reasons for high medical costs, but I don't think that has a lot to do with it. Its a system wide problem. Everything from the equipment to the doctors to the facility to the devices used are all insanely expensive.

Agreed.  New doctors usually pay off their loans within just a few years of their residency.

Quote
My son had a 45 minute minor surgery earlier this year and the bill was like $17k. We were in and out of the hospital in about 2 hours and it cost $17k for 45 minutes of the doctors time and a few stitches. A five minute consult with the doctor at the clinic costs $150? WTF!

The biggest problem I can see is that the insurance companies we hire for ourselves don't fight on our behalf. They should be outraged at having to pay such high prices, but they're not. They pay the high bills to justify keeping a larger profit for themselves in the process.

Yeah that's ridiculous.  And the health insurance system is totally fucked in its current state.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if there's collusion to some degree, like kingshmegland suggested.

-J

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2010, 09:53:06 AM »

Yeah that's ridiculous.  And the health insurance system is totally fucked in its current state.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if there's collusion to some degree, like kingshmegland suggested.

-J

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2010, 11:28:35 AM »
This is just some ideas that I pondered while hiking a few months ago.  Obviously, this is well beyond my qualifications, but these seem to be very sensible.  There are people here who would have some pretty good insight into pros/cons that I'd very much like to hear.


Barto's comprehensive medical reform:

More doctors:
Found the United States Medical College.  There should be two paths to a career in medicine.  If you're in a hurry to launch a lucrative career in anesthesiology or fake tit installation, pay your own way.  If you'd rather trade time for money, go the governmental route.  A person should be able to obtain an education in medicine in exchange for a set length of public service.  Uncle Sammy picks up the tab and in exchange you do your residency where you're needed, followed by, let's say 6 years, practicing general medicine in a location where the service is needed.  I suspect there are tons of people who'd operate a practice in the Regional Medical Center of Souther Bumfuck for 6 years in exchange for a free education.  After you're hitch, you're free to do whatever you want.

And adequate supply of doctors alleviates many of the problems with the current situation.

Better billing:

The intentional obfuscation in medical billing is bullshit.  The whole thing should be much more transparent.  A person should be able to get a rough idea of what a tonsillectomy will run, barring complications.  Furthermore, many of the things that happen at a hospital should be done at a fixed rate.  I suspect the reason that a Bayer aspirin costs $7 is because they're subsidizing something else.  More transparency.  Also, the personnel who see you should be paid via the hospital.  After my trip through the ICU, I received 20 different bills from doctors and technicians that I'd never heard of.  The guy who checks the color of your piss shouldn't be sending you a bill for $45 on top of all the money the hospital wants.

Now, since the William Wallaces of the world would go ballistic if The Man dictated how a hospital operates,  we set up a system of standards for billing and tie Medicare reimbursements to a hospital's level of compliance.  Whether you get 92% or 104% depends upon how far you've gone to implement reasonable billing standards.

If there were actual pricing in health care, instead of everybody billing whatever the hell they want, you'd have actual competition,  and that would alleviate many of the problems with the current situation.

Less malpractice damages:

Personally, I think the whole malpractice problem is a smokescreen.  Yes, there are problems, but mostly it's an attempt to blame everything on lawyers instead of all of the other crooks in the business.  Regardless, some reform is certainly in order.  Reform should not include caps.  Period.  I think we can all agree that the guy who has his pecker amputated instead of a finger deserver's a helluva lot more than the $250k that the doctors and insurance guys want.  However, an 89 year old guy who dies on the operating table shouldn't translate to an early retirement for his kids.  My suggestion is government recommended damage guidelines.  A jury could go over or under at their discretion, but they should be informed that the going rate for the issue in question is $129,364.07.  My guess is that a jury won't award 27 million in that instance. 

An added benefit is that a neutral party can explain to a jury that grampa only had a year or two left, and he wasn't providing any income anyway.  There are reasons why damages exist, but I seriously doubt that the lawyers defending the hospital want to explain to a jury why Aunt Sally was really only worth about 6 grand.

No fraud:

Now if you want to talk about bloodsuckers bleeding the system, skip the trial lawyers and look for the people ripping off Medicare.  That's a simple one.  Get caught submitting phony bills and go to jail.  No fines.  No probation.  6 years federal time.

At this point, you've provided a massive increase in availability and competition.  You've dealt with a great deal of the overhead and loss.  I can't really envision a way that two hours in the hospital continues to cost 17k.  If getting a broken arm repaired only costs $800 instead of $20k+, then you're not really going to have too much trouble sorting out who pays for it.

One thing that I haven't figured out is how to handle big pharm.  This is certainly a huge part of the problem.  I suspect more research being done on a grant basis might be key, but I really don't know.
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Online lordxizor

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2010, 11:54:24 AM »
I like the more doctors part of that. They do something similar with teachers to get them to go to less desirable areas. The billing thing would be great too. You get one bill from the clinic or hospital you visited and that includes line items for each person who saw you and all of the supplies.

Offline j

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2010, 01:39:24 PM »
I like the more doctors part of that. They do something similar with teachers to get them to go to less desirable areas.

They have incentive programs in place for doctors to go to under-served areas too.  They're just not that appealing to people who have just gone through 8-12 years of schooling, and will make big money wherever they go.

More doctors:
Found the United States Medical College.  There should be two paths to a career in medicine.  If you're in a hurry to launch a lucrative career in anesthesiology or fake tit installation, pay your own way.  If you'd rather trade time for money, go the governmental route.  A person should be able to obtain an education in medicine in exchange for a set length of public service.  Uncle Sammy picks up the tab and in exchange you do your residency where you're needed, followed by, let's say 6 years, practicing general medicine in a location where the service is needed.  I suspect there are tons of people who'd operate a practice in the Regional Medical Center of Souther Bumfuck for 6 years in exchange for a free education.  After you're hitch, you're free to do whatever you want.

And adequate supply of doctors alleviates many of the problems with the current situation.

Not sure how this would work.  Are there still strict standards for admission to the US Medical College?  How does Uncle Sammy picking up the tab change the ultimate costliness of the education?

Again, medical students' debt is not much of an issue.  The graduation rate for those admitted to medical school is like 98%, so although they're in debt, they will shortly have the capacity to easily manage it and pay it back.

So unless the standards for admission are significantly lowered, I don't see a lot of people (many of whom have families to consider) going for a 6 year stint in Podunk, USA.  Although inevitably, this school would be getting the scraps from traditional medical school admission (i.e. those who couldn't make the cut at a normal medical school, which is close to 60% of applicants).  That could establish a disparity in perceived (or actual) quality of graduates coming out of the government's program.

Quote
One thing that I haven't figured out is how to handle big pharm.  This is certainly a huge part of the problem.  I suspect more research being done on a grant basis might be key, but I really don't know.

I don't know either.  Too many conflicts of interest, too much bogus information, and too much un-transparency.

I agree with most of your other suggestions, especially the ones regarding fraud and malpractice.  Your solution for Medicare fraud should probably be applied to welfare and other social programs too, IMO.

-J

Offline El Barto

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2010, 02:26:22 PM »
I don't see why standards should be any lower at all. 

I was of the impression that student loan debt is a big problem.  A quick look at some numbers suggests that a new doctor will come out of his residency with $100-$200k in debt and a job paying roughly $75k.  Yes, you'll be able to manage that debt, but you're still going to spend quite a few years paying that off.  Given the opportunity to skip that debt and keep all of your $75k in exchange for working outside of a big city for a few years seems like a reasonable option. 

Since doctors are needed all over the place, it seems just as likely that you wouldn't be shipped too far away.  Wouldn't you consider keeping all of that student loan money, which amounts to a significantly larger starting salary, in exchange for working in some place like Tyler?
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Offline j

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2010, 03:04:37 PM »
I was of the impression that student loan debt is a big problem.  A quick look at some numbers suggests that a new doctor will come out of his residency with $100-$200k in debt and a job paying roughly $75k.  Yes, you'll be able to manage that debt, but you're still going to spend quite a few years paying that off.  Given the opportunity to skip that debt and keep all of your $75k in exchange for working outside of a big city for a few years seems like a reasonable option.

According to a survey done last year, the lowest reported salary for a family practice physician (usually considered the lowest-paying specialization) in the US was 128k, with an average of over 200k.  Residencies usually pay around 80k, but when that's over, there's usually a significant salary hike.  Not that that's particularly relevant to your point, just saying.

It's worth noting that there are a significant number of med students who don't have to incur that debt, usually because they have parents who are physicians.  For the ones that do, if you weed out the ones who don't consider it worth making the temporary move to a shitty area (not just outside of a big city), due to family or other priorities or whatever, the pool has diminished quite a bit.  Not only that, but it's primary care docs that are needed in those areas, and relatively few students are interested in that (lower pay, less career options, other reasons), as the numbers will show you.  Personally, that's the reason I'd possibly decline such an offer: I'd rather not wait 6 more years before I start to specialize in what I really want to do.

Maybe I'm way off base, I don't know.  I'll survey my class next semester and see which ones would be interested. :lol

Quote
Since doctors are needed all over the place, it seems just as likely that you wouldn't be shipped too far away.  Wouldn't you consider keeping all of that student loan money, which amounts to a significantly larger starting salary, in exchange for working in some place like Tyler?

Tyler?  I was thinking more along the lines of REAL under-served areas, like rural towns in west Texas or places with very low income averages.  When I was applying, I interviewed at the Texas Tech medical school in Lubbock, and they sort of make it their mission statement to serve the entire Permian Basin area, and extend into the panhandle, etc.  They ship fractions of their students off to those areas to do their clinical work, and really push 'em to go into primary care and stay out there in the boondocks.

-J

Offline El Barto

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2010, 03:10:20 PM »
One of the things that I wasn't sure about is how possible it is to specialize after 6 years of primary care practice.  What's the story on that?

I am aware that it's primary care docs that are needed, and that's why there needs to be an incentive.  Providing the education for free seems like a decent one, but like I said, I'm interested in other opinions, and yours is certainly the most qualified. 
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Offline j

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2010, 03:29:10 PM »
I think you have to re-take board exams and stuff, but you can apply for a residency at any time.  So that wouldn't be much of an issue if somebody spent 6 years in primary care and then decided to go into dermatology or something.  They'd just have to do a dermatology residency and everything.

I think covering the costs of the education is a good incentive too, but the way the system stands, time is the other major factor.  When you put in that much time and effort and sacrifice, the incentive has to be pretty vast to get you to put off your real desired career and life even longer.  And to be honest, I think the admissions process does a fairly decent job of selecting future physicians for whom money is not a primary motivator.

-J

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2010, 04:17:30 PM »
I really think the US would be a better and more vibrant political entity if it didnt have a constitution.

Like Israel?

Seriously. Ack. What do you have against Israel?

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2010, 10:53:57 AM »
Judge Who Ruled Health Care Reform Unconstitutional Owns Piece of GOP Consulting Firm

https://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/judge-who-ruled-health-care-reform-unconstitutional-owns-piece-of-gop-consulting-firm.php?ref=fpi

Quote
Henry E. Hudson, the federal judge in Virginia who just ruled health care reform unconstitutional, owns between $15,000 and $50,000 in a GOP political consulting firm that worked against health care reform.

I'm just sayin'.
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Offline Global Laziness

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2010, 10:59:13 AM »
Judge Who Ruled Health Care Reform Unconstitutional Owns Piece of GOP Consulting Firm

https://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/judge-who-ruled-health-care-reform-unconstitutional-owns-piece-of-gop-consulting-firm.php?ref=fpi

Quote
Henry E. Hudson, the federal judge in Virginia who just ruled health care reform unconstitutional, owns between $15,000 and $50,000 in a GOP political consulting firm that worked against health care reform.

I'm just sayin'.

Shouldn't that enormous conflict of interest have been pointed out beforehand? Like, waaaay beforehand?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2010, 10:59:15 AM »
This is American politics.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Health Care Reform Declared Unconstitutional
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2010, 01:15:57 PM »
Judge Who Ruled Health Care Reform Unconstitutional Owns Piece of GOP Consulting Firm

https://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/judge-who-ruled-health-care-reform-unconstitutional-owns-piece-of-gop-consulting-firm.php?ref=fpi

Quote
Henry E. Hudson, the federal judge in Virginia who just ruled health care reform unconstitutional, owns between $15,000 and $50,000 in a GOP political consulting firm that worked against health care reform.

I'm just sayin'.

Shouldn't that enormous conflict of interest have been pointed out beforehand? Like, waaaay beforehand?

If the system worked we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now :P