Author Topic: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)  (Read 130782 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2415 on: September 14, 2020, 10:54:25 AM »
I was pretty shocked, but relieved when the other 4 did a reasonably solid job at reassuring the fans that it wouldn't mean the end of the band. It was the first time I'd experienced in real time a major band line-up change/split/departure of an artist I counted as one of my favorites.

Yea, it's weird how I can remember exactly where I was (a McDonalds in Midtown Manhatten eating before I started a night shift at a contract job I was working) and browsing DTF on my phone and seeing the news.  Immediately calling my friend and just the feeling of shock and sadness.  In the end, I'd say things worked out but in that moment I was really upset and definitely had some thoughts of it being the end of DT.  I can't recall that feeling of any other band because most of those big break ups had happened before I followed said bands or bands that had members break and whatnot were bands that I didn't love the same as I love DT.

I can relate to that notion of "sadness".   I had experienced that feeling of someone leaving before - Yes, Genesis, Maiden, Kiss - but I'll be honest:   I had Mike in my top three list of guys that "are too important".  It was a short list - if Purple could go on without Blackmore, or Genesis could go on without Phil then the idea of a guy being "irreplacable" is sort of nonsense - but I honestly thought that Mike was so much part of the ethos, the heart, the soul of that band that it was just a matter of time.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2416 on: September 14, 2020, 11:45:31 AM »
Just curious, but what do you think about ADTOE now?
It's okay I guess. Like, it's fine. I really, really, REALLY love Breaking All Illusions, it's one of their best songs of all time. OTBOA and BITS are fine. The rest is... okay.

Does that answer your question :lol

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Offline gzarruk

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2417 on: September 14, 2020, 01:00:33 PM »
Just curious, but what do you think about ADTOE now?
It's okay I guess. Like, it's fine. I really, really, REALLY love Breaking All Illusions, it's one of their best songs of all time. OTBOA and BITS are fine. The rest is... okay.

Does that answer your question :lol

I guess it does :lol

I know this isn't the thread to discuss this, but I love ADTOE for what it is: a really good comeback album after an ugly split and a return to form stylistically, which was welcome after SC and BC&SL, but it definitely has some flaws (and I'm not even talking about the mix, which I have no major issues with, but some here do).

To keep a threat-oriented discussion, though, I will say that Mike's attitude towards the album didn't help with the ugliness of the split at all. He accused them (indirectly, but he did) of rewriting IAW and JP of being too inspired by the band Red while writing BMU,BMD. While I see the similarities (specially with the song by Red), it's not like something like this had never happened under him before (see: Stockholm Syndrome/Never Enough, or that OVM and SC are basically the same album structure-wise).
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2418 on: September 14, 2020, 01:19:52 PM »
For me, MP leaving DT was more of a shock than sadness per se, since I had more or less stopped following DT’s releases after Octavarium. I just couldn’t believe he would ever step away from what he always described as his baby. To be honest, I always felt he was right that DT needed to take an extended break. Ultimately, I think it ended up being good for everyone, even if I don’t love everything MP has done since. The Winery Dogs and to a lesser extent Flying Colors are two projects I’m not sure would have happened otherwise and which I think I would really miss if they didn’t happen. I don’t own any of the Mangini DT albums, but the guys seem happy and successful since MP left, and now it seems like the parties have reconciled enough to wear at least they can be friends and collaborate on other projects, and that’s good enough for me.

Offline millahh

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2419 on: September 14, 2020, 02:47:18 PM »
I had just moved to Erie for work.

I am so, so sorry.  :biggrin:
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2420 on: September 14, 2020, 03:15:17 PM »
For me, MP leaving DT was more of a shock than sadness per se, since I had more or less stopped following DT’s releases after Octavarium. I just couldn’t believe he would ever step away from what he always described as his baby. To be honest, I always felt he was right that DT needed to take an extended break. Ultimately, I think it ended up being good for everyone, even if I don’t love everything MP has done since. The Winery Dogs and to a lesser extent Flying Colors are two projects I’m not sure would have happened otherwise and which I think I would really miss if they didn’t happen. I don’t own any of the Mangini DT albums, but the guys seem happy and successful since MP left, and now it seems like the parties have reconciled enough to wear at least they can be friends and collaborate on other projects, and that’s good enough for me.

John Petrucci and John Myung have always been his friends and a band disagreement that resulted in one leaving shouldn't be a crutch in a life-long friendship.

The reconciliation stuff is for the fans.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2421 on: September 14, 2020, 05:23:02 PM »
To keep a threat-oriented discussion, though, I will say that Mike's attitude towards the album didn't help with the ugliness of the split at all. He accused them (indirectly, but he did) of rewriting IAW and JP of being too inspired by the band Red while writing BMU,BMD. While I see the similarities (specially with the song by Red), it's not like something like this had never happened under him before (see: Stockholm Syndrome/Never Enough, or that OVM and SC are basically the same album structure-wise).
I can go along with what you're saying about the accusations regarding BMUBMD, but that 8v and SC "are basically the same album structure-wise" is a big stretch. Yeah, both have a 20+ minute epic, a semi-epic that starts off mellow and has an extended instrumental section, a heavy Muse-influenced song and (surprise surprise) another part of the 12SS. But let's be real - those are pretty broad descriptions, and certainly the individual songs have little correlation to their supposed equivalent. Likewise, there's no U2-ish song, nor super sappy ballad, nor rock song on baritone guitar with a Neal Schon-esque solo on SC. And there's no Evanescence-y song, nor a song with Pantera-ish riffs, shouted verses and wacky Zappa-esque instrumental section on 8v. Plus I don't see equivalents for Constant Motion and Panic Attack on the opposing albums.

The thing is, you can be sure that as they were writing the various tracks for SC, MP wasn't saying "hey - let's make sure that we include these same style tracks that we just did on our last album!" In an interview that I did with MP back in 2004, when I asked him if he would ever consider using previous DT albums for "inspiration corner" instead of other bands' albums, he said
Quote
We would never make a record with the mindset “let’s try to re-do this” or use Images and Words or Awake as inspiration corner – we don’t ever want to repeat ourselves. In fact, we would use those more as references for things not to do, because we’ve already done them! There’s been times where we have looked at our past records and said “wait – we’ve already done that – we can’t do that again.” So if anything, those earlier albums are not so much an influence, they’re more of a guideline for us to not repeat ourselves.

OTOH, after MP left the band, and with it, all his grand-master plans for album themes and arranging things, JP directed the band to "get back to their roots". What better way than to get ideas from the album that put them on the map in the first place and remains the most popular album in their catalog? Whether it started out as a simple writing exercise akin to the 2003 Stream of Consciousness fan club contest or something less innocent, it's quite evident that most of the songs on ADToE were initially based off the structures of songs from IaW.

That said, it didn't help when MP started making disparaging remarks about the similarities, and I can understand why he received the backlash he did from part of the fanbase.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2422 on: September 14, 2020, 10:54:04 PM »
I've always been puzzled why a band with as many talented writers and musicians as DT would need or want an 'inspiration corner.'
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2423 on: September 15, 2020, 06:27:45 AM »
I had just moved to Erie for work.

I am so, so sorry.  :biggrin:

HA!  It was an experience, that's for sure. 

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2424 on: September 15, 2020, 06:45:26 AM »
I've always been puzzled why a band with as many talented writers and musicians as DT would need or want an 'inspiration corner.'

To be honest, while everyone in the band are talented writers in the sense they have come up with some really cool and amazing music, I don’t think anyone in DT (outside of possibly Kevin Moore and to a lesser extent JP) was a great *song* writer. They have always excelled more as players in my opinion, and they always seem to have relied pretty heavily on their influences in terms of the kind of songs they wrote. At least during the MP era.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2425 on: September 15, 2020, 06:56:28 AM »
I've always been puzzled why a band with as many talented writers and musicians as DT would need or want an 'inspiration corner.'
I think the idea was to try to incorporate different styles and sounds into their music to always keep things fresh. Don't forget this is something they did going all the way back to WDaDU when they had not developed the songwriting skills they now have. And since WDaDU, it was probably just a habit that they had gotten themselves into until they consciously decided *not* to have it for BCaSL.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2426 on: September 15, 2020, 09:21:39 AM »
OTOH, after MP left the band, and with it, all his grand-master plans for album themes and arranging things, JP directed the band to "get back to their roots". What better way than to get ideas from the album that put them on the map in the first place and remains the most popular album in their catalog? Whether it started out as a simple writing exercise akin to the 2003 Stream of Consciousness fan club contest or something less innocent, it's quite evident that most of the songs on ADToE were initially based off the structures of songs from IaW.

For what it's worth, JP would strongly dispute this.  And I know you have access to him, so you can discuss it with him at some point.  I would be curious to hear your take and compare notes after having that conversation.  But I have brought it up on a couple of occasions, and he is quite adamant that any similarities are superficial and not intended in the least.  I brought up specifics, and for each one, the response was basically along the lines of, "I can see why, in retrospect, you would think that they sound similar in some ways. But that was not intended, and here is why they are actually very different from a musical/compositional standpoint..."  I was surprised at how firm he was on that, because I had assumed for the longest time that, while the claims that they copied structures is WAY overblown and oversimplified, I heard some similarities that I believed were intentional homages, and I assumed there were likely others that I and others had not picked up on.  So, for what it's worth, the primary writer of the album disagrees.  And I guess it makes sense in a way, too, that even though there are a good 4 or 5 songs that seem to sound like they have some similarities to songs on I&W, nobody has ever been able to make convincing arguments for why it also seems to stop there, and there do not seem to be any similarities whatsoever with the other songs.  I mean, if you are going to do that, why stop the "nuggets" at a few songs and not have tie-ins with all of them?

I've always been puzzled why a band with as many talented writers and musicians as DT would need or want an 'inspiration corner.'

Because, whether you or I or any other fan agrees or disagrees, they like to be inspired by other talented artists, and they view inspiration and homages as a positive thing.  Thats' who they are.  It is just part of their musical identity. 
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2427 on: September 15, 2020, 09:33:03 AM »
And I guess it makes sense in a way, too, that even though there are a good 4 or 5 songs that seem to sound like they have some similarities to songs on I&W, nobody has ever been able to make convincing arguments for why it also seems to stop there, and there do not seem to be any similarities whatsoever with the other songs.

Well, I don't see why this would be an issue.... the fact that some songs have the same structures does not mean that JP imposed upon the others a mandatory copy section by section of each and every song off I&W; Lost Not Forgotten for example resembles Under a Glass Moon a lot but there's no piano intro on UaGM, why is there on LNF? because they felt like saw and nobody was shooting anybody in case they went off the rails.

I mean, there's a lot of options between the two extremes of "We absolutely have to copy all the 8 songs of Images and Words down to the tiniest of detail" and "We just happened to write some songs that, boy that's funny, resembles so much and so closely four songs off the same album".

As Scotty said, maybe it was just a random exercise in songwriting, Stream of Consciousness contest style, that yelded suprisingly good results. It doesn't mean that they didn't allow themselves some liberties anyway, see the piano intro for Lost Not Forgotten or the fact that Outcry has a chorus while the song that it strongly resembles, structure wise, has not (Metropolis).

Personally I always thought more plausible that just SOME songs resembled their I&W counterparts, with some details changed here and there, than they would replicate an entire album with the wild hunt for nuggetz in all the other songs even when they aren't really there.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2428 on: September 15, 2020, 09:56:44 AM »
Well, I never thought they set out to "replicate" the album.  But I had assumed that maybe they started with a couple of small nuggets that tied in.  And if they were going to intentionally do that for some songs, it just seems odd to me that they wouldn't have done that for all.  But not necessarily to the same degree.  On one end of the spectrum, you have a song that may mirror a LOT of structural elements of a song on I&W, like OTBOA.  On the other end of the spectrum, maybe you have a song that only shares a small, hidden nugget with a song on I&W that is perhaps so subtle that only the nerdiest person would eventually pick up on the connection. In the middle, you have varying degrees of similarity, such as a short, soft song before the closing epic (even if not "structurally" similar or similarly "musically" in any significant way), or a song that has a similar-sounding intro section (LNF/UAGM) or a similar feeling instrumental section (Outcry/Metropolis), but otherwise has nothing really in common.  I always thought that, if it indeed was intentional, it made sense that there would almost surely be some connection, no matter how small and subtle, with the other songs.  But, again, I was told on more than one occasion that there are NO such connections at all, at least not intentionally.  And that was in response to very direct questions about it.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2429 on: September 15, 2020, 11:20:11 AM »
The closest similarity I can hear is  7:09-7:16 in Lost Not Forgotten and 4:37-4:42 in Under A Glass Moon.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2430 on: September 15, 2020, 12:40:48 PM »
I have no idea what their intent was, but, with the exception of keys (i.e., key signatures, not keyboards), BAI is a virtual carbon copy of LTL.

The intro in LTL (0:00 - 0:25) is an odd time riff that starts with a single instrument (keyboards) and which is subsequently joined by the full band.

The intro in BAI (0:00 - 0:33) is an odd time riff that starts with a single instrument (guitar) and which is subsequently joined by the full band.


From 0:25 - 1:13, LTL then spins off into a variation on the intro riff that decrescendos into something softer and slower.

From 0:33 - 1:34, BAI spins off into a variation on the intro riff.  The biggest difference is that it is interrupted by the instrumental version of "reaching out" from 0:49 - 1:13, before revisiting the intro riff and decrescendoing into something softer and slower.


The first verse of LTL (1:13 - 2:42) is primarily driven by a bass riff that alternates time signatures (4-3-4-2), with atmospheric keyboards and low-range vocals and guitar accents, and which slowly crescendos before the pre-chorus.

The first verse of BAI (1:34 - 3:04) is primarily driven by a bass riff that alternates time signatures (7-6-5-7), with atmospheric keyboards and low-range vocals and guitar accents, and which slowly crescendos before the pre-chorus.


The pre-chorus/chorus of LTL (2:42 - 3:10) is majestic sounding, primarily based on whole notes.

The pre-chorus/chorus of BAI (3:04 - 3:40) is majestic sounding, primarily based on whole notes (albeit in 3/4).


The second verse of LTL (3:10 - 4:01) is much heavier than the first and is based on a staccato riff played by the whole band, which intensifies as it moves along.

The second verse of BAI (3:40 - 4:21) is much heavier than the first and is based on a staccato riff played by the whole band (although it does not intensify in the same way as LTL).


LTL then moves to a bridge (4:01 - 5:30) that features an instrumental section that is based around the intro riff before vocals come in.  It ends with a slightly airy/jazzy section but features call backs throughout to the intro riff and subsequent variation section.  It includes a section where the rhythm section lays out while the guitar and keys take a duo.

BAI then moves to a bridge (4:21 - 6:41) that features an instrumental section that is based around the intro riff before the vocals come in.  In this case, the vocals are set over the same musical section that interrupted the intro variations section.  It is more majestic/rocking than LTL's airy/jazzy section.  However, like, LTL, it includes a section where the rhythm section lays out while the guitar and keys take a duo.  This section in BAI is significantly longer and more complex than its counterpart in LTL, and the end bears relatively little resemblance.


From 5:30 - 7:41, LTL features a quiet section with a clean guitar solo over a relatively mellow accompaniment, which builds as it progresses.  The guitar switches to distorted electric right before James's whoa-whoa-whoa section, after which the section becomes more majestic.

From 6:41 - 8:51, BAI features a quiet section with a clean guitar solo over a relatively mellow accompaniment, which builds as it progresses.  The guitar switches to distorted electric at the end.  There is no "interrupting" vocal segment as in LTL.


The ensuing instrumental sections (7:41 - 9:35 in LTL and 8:51 - 10:36 in BAI) are rather dissimilar, but both resolve into a vocal section that calls back to an earlier segment of the song "the way your hear sounds" in LTL and "searching out, reaching in" in BAI.  The ends of the two songs are not particularly similar (the bass-based outro in LTL and the majestic keyboard-based ending of BAI).


There are parts of Outcry that remind me of Metropolis, but none of the other comparisons have resonated with me.  The LTL/BAI parallels, however, hit me over the head from the first time I heard BAI
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2431 on: September 15, 2020, 06:54:34 PM »
I've always been puzzled why a band with as many talented writers and musicians as DT would need or want an 'inspiration corner.'

Because, whether you or I or any other fan agrees or disagrees, they like to be inspired by other talented artists, and they view inspiration and homages as a positive thing.  Thats' who they are.  It is just part of their musical identity. 

Of course, and point well received, it just seems like inspiration is best when it comes randomly or spontaneously, for lack of a better descriptor, not because you are actively seeking it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 07:43:31 PM by Cool Chris »
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2432 on: September 15, 2020, 09:03:51 PM »
I've always been puzzled why a band with as many talented writers and musicians as DT would need or want an 'inspiration corner.'
Because, whether you or I or any other fan agrees or disagrees, they like to be inspired by other talented artists, and they view inspiration and homages as a positive thing.  Thats' who they are.  It is just part of their musical identity. 
Of course, and point well received, it just seems like inspiration is best when it comes randomly or spontaneously, for lack of a better descriptor, not because you are actively seeking it.
But that's the thing - there are times when those guys might be inspired randomly or spontaneously, and then write down/record that idea so it doesn't get forgotten. But when you're preparing to write and record a new album, besides any ideas that may be brought to the table from those instances, they probably want to make sure they have enough material to work with and use inspiration corner to get the juices flowing.

Don't forget that in some cases, it might not be a case of songwriting, but it could be something sonically, too. Notice what JP said in an interview from 1994 in reference to working on Awake:
Quote
Then when we were getting guitar sounds the engineer encouraged bringing in CDs we liked the sound of. I brought in Metallica for some of the heavier stuff. I brought in Rush’s Hold Your Fire for some of those semi-clean distorted sounds. The [totally] clean sounds I had tailored before going in.

I don't really hear anything that reminds me of Rush's HYF album in Awake, but it's evident that it was one of the albums that was in inspiration corner for Awake.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2433 on: September 15, 2020, 09:08:26 PM »
Now that I see that, I can totally see the HYF influence on the cleaner guitar sounds on Awake.

Offline Mladen

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2434 on: September 16, 2020, 02:57:21 AM »
I can hear it for example on the verses in Innocence faded, or parts of Erotomania.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2435 on: September 16, 2020, 05:55:03 AM »
I can hear it for example on the verses in Innocence faded, or parts of Erotomania.

Innocence Faded has that Red Barchetta thing before the solo, which is SO Rush!!!!

By the way, in my yet to be published interview with John Petrucci, I asked him for examples of when they used the "what would Rush do" rationale, not just musically. He loved the question, and gave me a great example of it. I'll post the link here in DTF once it's out. Looks like it's coming out this week.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2436 on: September 16, 2020, 09:39:19 AM »
I can hear it for example on the verses in Innocence faded, or parts of Erotomania.

Now you mention that song I can hear it. I'm using Force Ten as a reference point as that's the only song I really know.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2437 on: September 16, 2020, 03:24:40 PM »

James...Labrie?  Doesn't sound familiar.  Context?



On the Official Bootlegs, the Uncovered album which was a compilation of random covers they did had Diary of a Madman and in the liner notes Portnoy said he wanted to do Revelation but James was adamant about NOT doing that one. I don't remember if it was in the liner notes or later in an interview he said that he was surprised James was so adamant because he was usually game for whatever. He never did say why.

Gotcha.  I forgot that album existed.  I'd have bought it, but I don't think it has ever been in stock since I became aware that YJR existed, so I've never seen the liner notes.

By the way...now having listened to most of the "Uncovered" album, I have to say that JLB has balls of solid iron.  That album could have been subtitled, "Songs We Picked to Stretch James to His Absolute Limits."  Covering Dio era Sabbath, Journey in Steve Perry's prime.  ANY 70s Yes and Kansas songs.  To be game enough even to attempt some of those songs and to have the lack of ego to allow them to be released says a lot for the guy.  Also, can JM not buy a decent bass mix -- even on an album of covers?!  You could barely hear the guy on important parts of Machine Messiah.  At least he was audible during the opening bass driven section of Heart of the Sunrise.  Surprisingly (since I assume MP was responsible for the final mixes), JM wasn't sacrificed in favor of overly loud drums.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2438 on: September 16, 2020, 04:35:51 PM »
can JM not buy a decent bass mix -- even on an album of covers?!  You could barely hear the guy on important parts of Machine Messiah.  At least he was audible during the opening bass driven section of Heart of the Sunrise.  Surprisingly (since I assume MP was responsible for the final mixes), JM wasn't sacrificed in favor of overly loud drums.
I could be wrong about this, but I would wager that's more JP's doing than MP's. JP has always been more focused on the sonic aspects of the albums than MP. I think as long as MP had a good drum sound, he probably yielded to JP regarding the rest of the mix. Don't forget that it was JP that insisted on having SFaM remixed - not MP.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2439 on: September 17, 2020, 07:02:06 AM »

James...Labrie?  Doesn't sound familiar.  Context?



On the Official Bootlegs, the Uncovered album which was a compilation of random covers they did had Diary of a Madman and in the liner notes Portnoy said he wanted to do Revelation but James was adamant about NOT doing that one. I don't remember if it was in the liner notes or later in an interview he said that he was surprised James was so adamant because he was usually game for whatever. He never did say why.

Gotcha.  I forgot that album existed.  I'd have bought it, but I don't think it has ever been in stock since I became aware that YJR existed, so I've never seen the liner notes.

By the way...now having listened to most of the "Uncovered" album, I have to say that JLB has balls of solid iron.  That album could have been subtitled, "Songs We Picked to Stretch James to His Absolute Limits."  Covering Dio era Sabbath, Journey in Steve Perry's prime.  ANY 70s Yes and Kansas songs.  To be game enough even to attempt some of those songs and to have the lack of ego to allow them to be released says a lot for the guy.  Also, can JM not buy a decent bass mix -- even on an album of covers?!  You could barely hear the guy on important parts of Machine Messiah.  At least he was audible during the opening bass driven section of Heart of the Sunrise.  Surprisingly (since I assume MP was responsible for the final mixes), JM wasn't sacrificed in favor of overly loud drums.

I'm with you regarding James.   The guy really CAN sing just about anything AND make it sound decent (and not like it's been radically readjusted to fit the vocals).   

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2440 on: September 17, 2020, 07:04:52 PM »
10 years?

I must have heard the news almost immediately after Mike announced it because I remember that it was sort of ominous that Dream Theater hadn't made an announcement. I always figured Portnoy had a "main" ownership stake, maybe with JM and JP so I was wondering if DT would even be allowed to continue. I'm sure it wasn't that long after that they did make a statement but it freaked me out.

I didn't realize that the way those things typically work is that they each own an equal share of the corporation. Any extra money comes from extra responsibilities like songwriting or producing.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2441 on: September 18, 2020, 08:37:03 AM »
It was fascinating to watch the reactions at the time surrounding those kinds of issues.   I was on the MP site at that time, and it was almost a full-time job (and where I first started to get the rep as an MP apologist) trying to explain how "corporations" are or can be run.   One big sticking point for many at that time was that sometimes legal entities have requirements that don't always "look good" when viewed from the perspective of best buds pounding beers.   Sometimes you HAVE to sue as a formality to trigger other clauses in an operating agreement (the agreement that governs how a corporation is run).   

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2442 on: September 18, 2020, 09:59:35 AM »
What I remember is that, at the time, the split looked, in paper (their statements), much more amicable than it actually was. After reading the DT statement I remember thinking "well, he wanted to leave and they will move on, but they're still friends and will hopefully collaborate again on LTE 3 or something, Mike just wanted a big change for his music career". But, nope, then a lot of things started happening around this :rollin
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2443 on: September 18, 2020, 10:03:35 AM »
There was more to it than that.  It got to the point that James and Mike were at each other all the time and they had security guards for each of them backstage at the end.  You could see it building up in interviews here Mike said a little too much that should have been internal.  That really pissed off James.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2444 on: September 18, 2020, 11:02:36 AM »
There was more to it than that.  It got to the point that James and Mike were at each other all the time and they had security guards for each of them backstage at the end.  You could see it building up in interviews here Mike said a little too much that should have been internal.  That really pissed off James.

Security guards for each of them? That's news to me, I didn't know it was THAT heated between them. Can you go into more detail?

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2445 on: September 18, 2020, 11:05:44 AM »
Yeah, that's news to me too.

Spill it, Joe!  :P

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2446 on: September 18, 2020, 11:11:20 AM »
can JM not buy a decent bass mix -- even on an album of covers?!  You could barely hear the guy on important parts of Machine Messiah.  At least he was audible during the opening bass driven section of Heart of the Sunrise.  Surprisingly (since I assume MP was responsible for the final mixes), JM wasn't sacrificed in favor of overly loud drums.
I could be wrong about this, but I would wager that's more JP's doing than MP's. JP has always been more focused on the sonic aspects of the albums than MP. I think as long as MP had a good drum sound, he probably yielded to JP regarding the rest of the mix. Don't forget that it was JP that insisted on having SFaM remixed - not MP.

Yeah but...

Being that this was an "official bootleg," how much involvement did the band members other than MP have (other than as performers)?  I understand that JP and MP were on roughly equal footing when it came to the official releases, was that also true with the "official bootlegs"?


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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2447 on: September 18, 2020, 11:19:12 AM »
There was more to it than that.  It got to the point that James and Mike were at each other all the time and they had security guards for each of them backstage at the end.  You could see it building up in interviews here Mike said a little too much that should have been internal.  That really pissed off James.

Security guards for each of them? That's news to me, I didn't know it was THAT heated between them. Can you go into more detail?

Yeah, that's news to me too.

Spill it, Joe!  :P

I cannot because I can't out who told me this but the person is reputable.  The person wants to remain anonymous. Not anyone on this forum.

It's not the only reason.  It's always a confluence or reasons but is was a big one.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2448 on: September 18, 2020, 12:26:31 PM »
Talking about remembering where we were when we first read the news about MP leaving DT. I remember it clearly - I was in line at WalMart doing some grocery shopping with my then-roommate/best friend, and she was trying to figure out why I was looking so distraught reading my phone while I leaned on the shopping cart. I felt devastated.

Hard to believe it has been ten years since then, but I'd like to think that Mike is pretty happy with his decision to leave. He's done so much in that time and has been able to express his musical feelings in many different ways.

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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #2449 on: September 18, 2020, 12:46:28 PM »
can JM not buy a decent bass mix -- even on an album of covers?!  You could barely hear the guy on important parts of Machine Messiah.  At least he was audible during the opening bass driven section of Heart of the Sunrise.  Surprisingly (since I assume MP was responsible for the final mixes), JM wasn't sacrificed in favor of overly loud drums.
I could be wrong about this, but I would wager that's more JP's doing than MP's. JP has always been more focused on the sonic aspects of the albums than MP. I think as long as MP had a good drum sound, he probably yielded to JP regarding the rest of the mix. Don't forget that it was JP that insisted on having SFaM remixed - not MP.
Yeah but...

Being that this was an "official bootleg," how much involvement did the band members other than MP have (other than as performers)?  I understand that JP and MP were on roughly equal footing when it came to the official releases, was that also true with the "official bootlegs"?
Obviously, MP was the one who spearheaded official bootlegs, since he was the one with the massive archives, wrote the setlists and was familiar with shows that were noteworthy. And, like official releases, he oversaw many aspects of them, including artwork, packaging, etc. But when it came to the mixing of the recordings, where it wasn't just pulled from a 2-track DAT recording, I'm pretty confident that JP would have overseen that aspect of it. After all, these releases are listed as being produced by both of them. That said, I *do* think most official bootlegs are taken from 2-track DAT recordings.

With regards to the Uncovered 2003-2005 release, I'm pretty sure that all the recordings were just pulled from the 2-track DAT recordings, because in the credits, it lists Nigel Paul as doing the "Live Audio Mix" and Fred Kevorkian as mastering the recordings, but no one is listed as doing the actual mixing for the CD itself. OTOH, their Made in Japan official bootleg includes the same credits for Nigel Paul, and both mixing and mastering were done by Roger Glover.

So in the case of the Uncovered 2003-2005 release, if those recordings were taken from the 2-track DATs, then there really isn't much that could be done to boost JM in the mix, aside from maybe some EQing. And as we all know, JM is not known to be high in the live mix of shows, so that's why he's not high in the mix of that official bootleg, either.
 
 
There was more to it than that.  It got to the point that James and Mike were at each other all the time and they had security guards for each of them backstage at the end.  You could see it building up in interviews here Mike said a little too much that should have been internal.  That really pissed off James.

Security guards for each of them? That's news to me, I didn't know it was THAT heated between them. Can you go into more detail?
Yeah, that's news to me too.

Spill it, Joe!  :P
I cannot because I can't out who told me this but the person is reputable.  The person wants to remain anonymous. Not anyone on this forum.

It's not the only reason.  It's always a confluence or reasons but is was a big one.
What other reasons? In any case, this definitely news to me, too. Never heard that one before. Would be really curious to know who it was who made that claim. If true, I would have imagined that it would have been mentioned in Lifting Shadows as being a pre-cursor to MP's leaving, and would have even given the other guys in the band some inkling that something might happen. But all the interviews from those guys indicate that they were all blindsided by this, aside from JL commenting that he noticed MP seemed a bit distant to him while they were on tour with Maiden. Besides, would they both have brought their security guards with them when they had that fateful meeting on August 30 when MP first announced his intentions? I would imagine it probably would have been necessary, if true. So I have my doubts on the validity of this.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.