Author Topic: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)  (Read 234477 times)

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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1050 on: November 05, 2019, 11:38:00 AM »
And let's not forget how Bosk explained how the second leg of the tour was handled less than perfectly by the promoters so it's not even all on DT, but more on the organization of the tour.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1051 on: November 05, 2019, 11:49:36 AM »
You misunderstand, though.  They should NEVER have had "what will Stadler think?" in mind (though I have "WWSD" t-shirts for sale if you want one!).  I'm not saying that to give myself any importance; just the opposite.  The point is that there is no universal truth to this.  It's all in the eye of the beholder.  If you criticize me for "what will Stadler think", then you MUST criticize KevShmev for the same thing, not because I'm right and he's wrong, but because neither one of us is doing anything other than sharing an opinion.

To counter the ratings at an un-named site I can't check, and two Grammy noms, I counter with the equally uncertain and subjective "album sales" and "chart positions".   Black Clouds hit no. 6 on the charts and moved 40,200 copies in the first week.  NO DT album has charted that high since (as close as 7) and the self-titled moved 30,000 in the first week.  The band has played Connecticut 11 times since 2000, and excluding one opening act slot, they've played the same place every time (the Oakdale, a 5,000 seat theater).   Similar sitch in Philly (I can't really see a pattern in NY or LA, but there are too many places of equivalent size to make any conclusions). 

I would also note the rampant complaints about the sound quality on the records, particularly Mangini's sound (though that's not meant to bag on him specifically).   

Again, not saying I'm right, just that there are arguments on both sides of the fence and neither are objectively determinative.
Certainly.  And to continue to play devil's advocate, I would say that any decrease in album sales since 2009 most likely mirrors the industry-wide downward trend in album sales over that time period brought on by the increase in streaming.

I would also say that although they may be doing the same old thing in Connecticut, they have also opened up new areas where they had never really toured before, such as here in North Carolina, where we are routinely getting 2-3 stops on the most recent tours.

*shrugs*
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1052 on: November 05, 2019, 11:50:20 AM »
And let's not forget how Bosk explained how the second leg of the tour was handled less than perfectly by the promoters so it's not even all on DT, but more on the organization of the tour.
And from the reports by different ones who've attended shows on the current leg of the tour, it doesn't sound like the venues are being filled up to capacity or near that in many cases either.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1053 on: November 05, 2019, 12:40:27 PM »
And let's not forget how Bosk explained how the second leg of the tour was handled less than perfectly by the promoters so it's not even all on DT, but more on the organization of the tour.
And from the reports by different ones who've attended shows on the current leg of the tour, it doesn't sound like the venues are being filled up to capacity or near that in many cases either.

Perhaps, but there could be many reasons for that, higher ticket prices for one.

To use Rush as an example, they went from filling up arenas in the 80's and 90's to averaging about 11-12K per show in the 00's (based on what I read years ago).  Heck, even here in St Louis, which was always one of the band's biggest supporters, the venues weren't quite as packed in the 21st century as they were in the 20th, and the surge in ticket prices likely had a lot to do with it (my Test for Echo value ticket price was like $38 and then Vapor Trails was over $100), as higher prices tend to scare off the casual fans, vs us diehards who will usually pay whatever we have to to see the band.  Now, DT prices have not spiked that much in the last 10 years, but they have definitely gone up, which is keeping up with the market. Concerts in general cost more now than ever before, and the price you are gonna pay for that sometimes is slightly smaller crowds.  Happens to the bigger acts as well.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1054 on: November 05, 2019, 02:08:39 PM »
Could be, but I don't remember reading many comments about venues not being filled up on the first leg of the tour. It seems to be happening more on this second run. Part of it is probably the ticket prices, as well as the fact that there has been little change to the setlist and while they're not playing in the same cities as the first time, many of them are still close enough to those from the first leg, so that many who wanted to see the band already caught them the first time around. Judging by some of the comments I've read here and seen elsewhere, that certainly been the case for at least some fans.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1055 on: November 05, 2019, 02:26:03 PM »
Could be, but I don't remember reading many comments about venues not being filled up on the first leg of the tour. It seems to be happening more on this second run. Part of it is probably the ticket prices, as well as the fact that there has been little change to the setlist and while they're not playing in the same cities as the first time, many of them are still close enough to those from the first leg, so that many who wanted to see the band already caught them the first time around. Judging by some of the comments I've read here and seen elsewhere, that certainly been the case for at least some fans.
The same thing happened on the second leg of the Astonishing tour.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1056 on: November 05, 2019, 02:53:59 PM »
Could be, but I don't remember reading many comments about venues not being filled up on the first leg of the tour. It seems to be happening more on this second run. Part of it is probably the ticket prices, as well as the fact that there has been little change to the setlist and while they're not playing in the same cities as the first time, many of them are still close enough to those from the first leg, so that many who wanted to see the band already caught them the first time around. Judging by some of the comments I've read here and seen elsewhere, that certainly been the case for at least some fans.
The same thing happened on the second leg of the Astonishing tour.
Right. But as MirrorMask already mentioned, that was blamed primarily on the organizers of the tour not doing their job properly and booking them in a lot of the same cities they played the first time around. On this tour, that is not the case, even though many of the cities are within a reasonable driving distance from where they played on the first leg of the tour.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1057 on: November 05, 2019, 02:57:02 PM »
Right. But as MirrorMask already mentioned, that was blamed primarily on the organizers of the tour not doing their job properly and booking them in a lot of the same cities they played the first time around. On this tour, that is not the case, even though many of the cities are within a reasonable driving distance from where they played on the first leg of the tour.

They played in Peoria Illinois the night before they played in St. Louis this leg. Peoria is all of (3) hours from St. Louis. I'd be willing to bet that had they eliminated one of those shows that the show that was left would have been much more full than it was. The St. Louis venue has about 3000 seats and it was half or a hair more than half full.

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1058 on: November 05, 2019, 03:34:47 PM »


They played in Peoria Illinois the night before they played in St. Louis this leg. Peoria is all of (3) hours from St. Louis. I'd be willing to bet that had they eliminated one of those shows that the show that was left would have been much more full than it was. The St. Louis venue has about 3000 seats and it was half or a hair more than half full.

Hmmm, was the balcony not very full?  Seems like on the floor where I was, the middle sections were pretty jam packed and then the side ones were not very full (I was only like 20 rows back and even the seats on the side in the same row on our side didn't have a lot of people).  Aside from the TA show here in '06, I saw DT here at the American Theater in '94 (that held maybe 1,500 people), Mississippi Nights in '00 (maybe 1,500 people or so) and the Pageant in '04 (around 2,000 people), and all of those were pretty jam packed, so it seems like they are still drawing about the same here in St Louis (1,500-2,000), but playing in a slightly bigger venue is naturally going to have more empty seats.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1059 on: November 06, 2019, 10:47:36 AM »


To be fair, A7X was his choice at first, like Bosk was saying, but it obviously didn't play out the way he expected it to be. I think the idea of joining a well stablished band and using his arranging/production skills fully in that band would be another good option for him to consider, given where Mike's professional career is at right now. The problem there, tho, would be to find a big enough band that needs a drummer and that is satisfying musically for him to stay, and there's not many bands that'd fit that criteria out there. And it's not like he could go solo and just tour with a bunch of no names either, unless they are pretty good writers too, because MP isn't exactly a songwriter by himself. He needs good songwriters like Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.

Follow the money; well established (mid level rock/metal) bands are probably hesitant to take a drummer like MP on full-time on a permanent basis because of the salary he commands. Take Ax7 for example, they had a number 1 record that is nearing platinum status and an extremely successful world tour and it still wasn’t enough to secure himself the gig. Why bring MP on when you can get an unknown who will do what they are told, do an album and tour for $50k and demand no publishing, writing credits, merch participation etc. All bullshit aside, I suspect $$$ played a much bigger role in Portnoy not being in Ax7 than anything else. It sounds cynical but no one in metal REALLY likes paying musicians (see Ozzy, Dio, Tobias Forge, the list goes on and on)

This is why Portnoy pretty much HAS to take on multiple projects, and they are usually (supergroup) projects where he has some skin in the game.

I disagree with that about as strongly as I possibly could given the lack of hard data to back up either of our positions.  Unless and until I hear something indicating that money was an issue, I'm not buying that it was.  A7X has a LOT more financial resources than DT ever had.  Even if they kept MP on as a long-term, semi-permanent "hired gun" and never made him a full member, he likely would have made more from that than he ever made in DT.  I disagree that he commands more money because of his status in DT. 

And regarding his making money in side projects, I'm betting that most of those projects generate peanuts.  He isn't making a whole lot of money from those.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1060 on: November 06, 2019, 10:50:13 AM »
Isn't 'side projects' all MP does nowadays? SoA is his 'main band' but it feels like a side project and I can't believe it's making any money. I've often wondered this, even though it's not my business, but I see pictures of his freaking house: where does the man's money come from these days?
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Offline Samsara

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1061 on: November 06, 2019, 11:09:56 AM »


To be fair, A7X was his choice at first, like Bosk was saying, but it obviously didn't play out the way he expected it to be. I think the idea of joining a well stablished band and using his arranging/production skills fully in that band would be another good option for him to consider, given where Mike's professional career is at right now. The problem there, tho, would be to find a big enough band that needs a drummer and that is satisfying musically for him to stay, and there's not many bands that'd fit that criteria out there. And it's not like he could go solo and just tour with a bunch of no names either, unless they are pretty good writers too, because MP isn't exactly a songwriter by himself. He needs good songwriters like Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.

Follow the money; well established (mid level rock/metal) bands are probably hesitant to take a drummer like MP on full-time on a permanent basis because of the salary he commands. Take Ax7 for example, they had a number 1 record that is nearing platinum status and an extremely successful world tour and it still wasn’t enough to secure himself the gig. Why bring MP on when you can get an unknown who will do what they are told, do an album and tour for $50k and demand no publishing, writing credits, merch participation etc. All bullshit aside, I suspect $$$ played a much bigger role in Portnoy not being in Ax7 than anything else. It sounds cynical but no one in metal REALLY likes paying musicians (see Ozzy, Dio, Tobias Forge, the list goes on and on)

This is why Portnoy pretty much HAS to take on multiple projects, and they are usually (supergroup) projects where he has some skin in the game.

I disagree with that about as strongly as I possibly could given the lack of hard data to back up either of our positions.  Unless and until I hear something indicating that money was an issue, I'm not buying that it was.  A7X has a LOT more financial resources than DT ever had.  Even if they kept MP on as a long-term, semi-permanent "hired gun" and never made him a full member, he likely would have made more from that than he ever made in DT.  I disagree that he commands more money because of his status in DT. 


I agree with him bosk. Sure, we don't have the data to back any of these opinions up. That said, however, there is a lot of logic to the argument that it came down to money. Personally, I always thought MP splitting from A7X was due to three things:

1. The drama he brought to a low drama band (remember the timeframe for MP and what he was going through).
2. His big mouth and inability to close it. (That's just who he is, we all get it.)
3. Money.

My gut feeling was that A7X absolutely would have given him the drum throne. At the time, DT was at an all time popularity level, Mike was well known, he was the Rev's biggest influence (I could be wrong here, but I remember hearing how huge of a fan the Rev was of MP in particular), and it was a natural fit. And all was going as well as can be...at least from the outside looking in. UNTIL, of course, MP said something (I can't remember off the top of my head what it was) that was inflammatory, and again, if my cloudy memory has it right, A7X had to step in and set the record straight, publicly. And then from that point on, months later, then MP was just fulfilling dates and moving on.

If pressed, I'd say THAT was the deciding factor of why MP wasn't in A7X permanently. But the argument regarding money makes a ton of sense. Mike is one of the premier drummers in rock/metal. He would command, particularly for a full time band, a lot of MP's time, and a lot of money to keep MP there and financially secure in the way that he is accustomed to being (I don't know what he pulls down before taxes, but I am sure through everything he does, he's probably making 200k+ per year). As was illustrated above, when A7X sat down to decide, money was probably thrown out there. You gotta pay MP. You don't disrespect the man by offering something low.

Again, I don't think money was the primary reason A7X went a different direction. But I do think it was a consideration.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1062 on: November 06, 2019, 11:13:32 AM »
Isn't 'side projects' all MP does nowadays? SoA is his 'main band' but it feels like a side project and I can't believe it's making any money. I've often wondered this, even though it's not my business, but I see pictures of his freaking house: where does the man's money come from these days?

His various side projects likely pay enough to keep the lights on, the kids fed, and the township happy. While he no doubt took a pay cut when he left DT (and there might have been a buyout involved), he spent 20+ years drawing a very nice salary from DT. Probably somewhere between dentist and doctor. If he took care of things he should be well into retirement territory right now, so the side gigs are plenty sufficient.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1063 on: November 06, 2019, 11:20:22 AM »
Isn't 'side projects' all MP does nowadays? SoA is his 'main band' but it feels like a side project and I can't believe it's making any money. I've often wondered this, even though it's not my business, but I see pictures of his freaking house: where does the man's money come from these days?

Well, I'm guessing that he doesn't need quite as much of an income stream "these days" if the house is mostly or completely paid for.  But keep in mind that, aside from his musical output, he has brand sponsorships that likely generate a pretty good revenue stream for him.  If I had to guess, I would think he makes as much or more from that than from his actual musical output these days. 

I don't know exactly what his compensation arrangement was like with DT.  In fact, I know nothing specific at all.  But knowing a bit about how it frequently works in the industry, I'm guessing it looked something like this:  Everything the band makes goes into the band's corporate entity, and he and the other members like got a fixed base salary from the corporation.  He, John, and John may have gotten a bit more than James and Jordan since they were founding members, or it may have all been equal.  Not sure.  On top of that base salary, they all likely got issued bonuses once a year (or at some other interval) based on how much money the entity as a whole was able to generate and have on hand after paying all expenses.  There were likely other bonuses paid to specific members who took on other roles.  For example, Mike was a producer on the albums.  He ran Ytsejam records.  He ran an active forum and was sort of the driving media relations force of the band.  And he wore other hats as well, some of which related to the musical output, and some of which related to behind-the-scenes business management of the band.  Some or all of those may have entitled him to additional bonus payments.  So even if base salaries were equal for all members, Mike's income stream from the DT corporate entity was likely higher than most or all of the other band members. 

Another income stream Mike had (and likely still does have) is the publishing rights to DT's songs where he is credited as a writer.  This is where he individually gets money based on albums and singles sold, and DT songs appearing elsewhere that might generate revenue.  As a credited writer, he gets a certain percentage of revenue from wherever a given song appears.

Then Mike also had a lot of other things he did on the side to generate revenue.  And he was smart in terms of keeping overhead low.  For example, his drum cam videos.  He could produce, distribute, and sell those relatively cheaply, which means that even though they didn't likely generate a ton of money, what was generated was likely mostly profit.  And that is true of his other videos as well that were sold on his website.  (I am not including Ytsejam in this because I included it above on the DT side.  But it kind of overlaps.  If I had to guess, I'd say that all income from Ytsejam went back into the DT corporate entity.  But the profit margin was probably pretty high.  And since Mike ran it, I'm guessing he may have gotten a higher percentage from that than the other members, either directly, or through a "bonus" for running it.)

So that's the DT side of things.  If he was reasonably careful with his money and paid mostly cash for the house and bought at the right time, I wouldn't see his house as being out of line with what he's doing now.  It's not like he was starting from scratch when he bought it.  I don't know the markets in that part of the country.  So while I could be offbase here, I suspect that it was something along the lines of:  He bought a NICE (but not super extravagant) house in N.Y. in the early days that he could afford when the income was good, it appreciated GREATLY through the years as the real estate market overall boomed, and he sold it at a good time where he made a LOT of money on it, and was then able to buy something much bigger in a cheaper market.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 11:39:23 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1064 on: November 06, 2019, 11:26:00 AM »
His house is valued around  $910k. Back when he bought it (I think he's been there a long while) it would have been considerably lower. Well within his means based on his likely salary. And I'm pretty sure he (or one of the others) have confirmed the basic setup you described. They all pulled a nice salary during the salad days, with bonuses based on profitability. 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1065 on: November 06, 2019, 11:38:22 AM »
I agree with him bosk. Sure, we don't have the data to back any of these opinions up. That said, however, there is a lot of logic to the argument that it came down to money. Personally, I always thought MP splitting from A7X was due to three things:

1. The drama he brought to a low drama band (remember the timeframe for MP and what he was going through).
2. His big mouth and inability to close it. (That's just who he is, we all get it.)
3. Money.

My gut feeling was that A7X absolutely would have given him the drum throne. At the time, DT was at an all time popularity level, Mike was well known, he was the Rev's biggest influence (I could be wrong here, but I remember hearing how huge of a fan the Rev was of MP in particular), and it was a natural fit. And all was going as well as can be...at least from the outside looking in. UNTIL, of course, MP said something (I can't remember off the top of my head what it was) that was inflammatory, and again, if my cloudy memory has it right, A7X had to step in and set the record straight, publicly. And then from that point on, months later, then MP was just fulfilling dates and moving on.

If pressed, I'd say THAT was the deciding factor of why MP wasn't in A7X permanently. But the argument regarding money makes a ton of sense. Mike is one of the premier drummers in rock/metal. He would command, particularly for a full time band, a lot of MP's time, and a lot of money to keep MP there and financially secure in the way that he is accustomed to being (I don't know what he pulls down before taxes, but I am sure through everything he does, he's probably making 200k+ per year). As was illustrated above, when A7X sat down to decide, money was probably thrown out there. You gotta pay MP. You don't disrespect the man by offering something low.

Again, I don't think money was the primary reason A7X went a different direction. But I do think it was a consideration.

Hey, you could be right.  I'm not going to pound the table and insist that my opinion is the right one.  And I agree with the vast majority of what you said with regard to your reasons 1 and 2.  But there is a slight inaccuracy in the facts, which causes me to somewhat disagree with the bolded paragraph.

Yes, from the outside, things were going well.  And it is obvious that Mike thought things were going well too.  It may even be that the A7X guys thought it was going well.  I would guess that they probably were mostly fine with it.

But Mike's public statements where they had to step in weren't "months" before, unless I am misremembering.  It was right before the end.  And that is important, for this reason:  (1) VERY shortly after Mike made his statements, his fixed term contract was nearing its end.  (2) At that time, he was told by A7X that they already has finished auditions and made a decision about who they were bringing in as a full member.  That's key.  Mike was a contract member for a fixed term.  When he ran his mouth publicly, he was told right afterward that they had their guy already in place.  The timeframe doesn't really add up to them pulling the trigger because of him running his mouth.  The process of finding their guy would likely have taken months.  I'm not discounting at all that they are very private guys and that Mike's conduct rubbed them the wrong way.  But I think it had little to do with the decision simply because the timing suggests that the decision had already been made before he publicly said anything.  So I don't think there's any reason to doubt what they said publicly about the reasons, which is that, just as they told Mike from day 1, he was coming in as a temp on a fixed term contract.  I know that, as the tour went on, Mike felt like it could be a great long-term fit, and he talked himself into thinking it could be a permanent gig.  But I think that is just a case of him failing to read the room.

So going back to the money, I just don't know.  I hear what you are saying.  But I'm not persuaded.  And the main reason is because, again, the way everything unfolded is COMPLETELY consistent with what everybody agrees that Mike was told from day 1 when he was initially brought in.  I just don't feel the need to look for other reasons when the original party line before he was even in the band fits exactly what unfolded in the ensuing months.  Now maybe money was one of the factors that they were looking at right up front, and that was one of the many factors that led to him being brought in as a hired gun in the first place.  But I don't see it as something that would have come up later and been a big obstacle if they had any intent whatsoever of bringing him in full-time but for the money.  I could be wrong on that, but I just don't see it.  And while there's nothing wrong with the theory behind it (it makes perfect sense and certainly isn't unreasonable), my way of thinking is to not put much credence into it because there isn't really any evidence to make me lean toward thinking it is anything more than just a theory.  So, that's my thought process.  Not trying to justify it as necessarily having to be correct, but just wanted to further explain why I think what I think.
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Offline ytserush

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1066 on: November 06, 2019, 07:33:27 PM »

At the same time, DT continues to be "just a band". A few guys write the music, chip in with the lyrics, they do DT stuff, they try out different approaches and remain true to themselves and their creative vision, not trying to reinvent the wheel. It's good for them, and they like it. Maybe someone misses the guy who used to carry a camera around and think of different performances and projects they could do and write different setlists and bring people into a room to record a DVD commentary track and select out-of-the-box influences to bring into the recording room. I miss that aspect of DT sometimes as well. But we got 25 years of that, and besides, the most important aspect of MP's presence in the band - his taste in music - I'm really not on the same page with it anymore.

Don't have much evidence to support it, but I think Mike just burnt out on Dream Theater. It's not an easy thing to try and control all of  the extra curricular (the only one in the band that would obsess of every detail and it seemed to become less fun the longer it went on.) He seems to be a lot happier(maybe relieved is a better word?) since he let go of that burden.  I'm sure he still brings that to other things, but I don't think there's as much pressure  to try to please everyone as there used to be.

Offline ytserush

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1067 on: November 06, 2019, 07:42:02 PM »


As has been said by many of us, the change was not only best for everyone involved, but for the fans as well.  Dream Theater, by my watch, has had a resurgence since Mangini joined, and since it could easily be argued that Flying Colors wouldn't have happened if Portnoy was still in DT, I call that a major win.  Plus, perhaps Neal Morse's solo prog career never becomes the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT, so there is also that.  The presence alone of the six albums combined by Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band means we've all won as a result of the split that happened in 2010.

That's my position generally with every split.   Post-Gabriel Genesis - Gabriel Solo, Hackett Solo......Fish-Post-Fish Marillion,   Portnoy-Post-Portnoy Dream Theater

For me that stuff is as good if not better.

 Doesn't really work with the Waters-Floyd thing in my case because I'm in the Waters camp there although Glimour has done a few sweet solo live albums in recent years.

Offline Cruithne

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1068 on: November 07, 2019, 02:37:15 AM »
Quote
But Mike's public statements where they had to step in weren't "months" before, unless I am misremembering.  It was right before the end.  And that is important, for this reason:  (1) VERY shortly after Mike made his statements, his fixed term contract was nearing its end.  (2) At that time, he was told by A7X that they already has finished auditions and made a decision about who they were bringing in as a full member.  That's key.

As far as (2) is concerned you're mis-remembering.

"We begged him to consider what he did, because we were in no position to find a permanent replacement"

http://bravewords.com/news/avenged-sevenfold-guitarist-discusses-drummer-mike-portnoy-and-post-dream-theater-fallout-in-new-video-interview-thats-not-how-we-do-business

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1069 on: November 07, 2019, 05:15:53 AM »
Don't have much evidence to support it, but I think Mike just burnt out on Dream Theater. It's not an easy thing to try and control all of  the extra curricular (the only one in the band that would obsess of every detail and it seemed to become less fun the longer it went on.) He seems to be a lot happier(maybe relieved is a better word?) since he let go of that burden.  I'm sure he still brings that to other things, but I don't think there's as much pressure  to try to please everyone as there used to be.
It's probably easier to do these things when you have a really good relationship with the rest of your band, but MP said post-split that relationships with JM and JLB had been strained for a while. Maybe that was his post-split rationalization, but I take everything he said about the split at face value. He was on a roll, seeing how fun and inspiring it was to dive full time into a completely different musical world as a hired gun, and saw a bright future ahead where he could continue doing that, if only DT agreed to take a longer break. But they said no.

Quote
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1070 on: November 07, 2019, 09:59:14 AM »

At the same time, DT continues to be "just a band". A few guys write the music, chip in with the lyrics, they do DT stuff, they try out different approaches and remain true to themselves and their creative vision, not trying to reinvent the wheel. It's good for them, and they like it. Maybe someone misses the guy who used to carry a camera around and think of different performances and projects they could do and write different setlists and bring people into a room to record a DVD commentary track and select out-of-the-box influences to bring into the recording room. I miss that aspect of DT sometimes as well. But we got 25 years of that, and besides, the most important aspect of MP's presence in the band - his taste in music - I'm really not on the same page with it anymore.

Don't have much evidence to support it, but I think Mike just burnt out on Dream Theater. It's not an easy thing to try and control all of  the extra curricular (the only one in the band that would obsess of every detail and it seemed to become less fun the longer it went on.) He seems to be a lot happier(maybe relieved is a better word?) since he let go of that burden.  I'm sure he still brings that to other things, but I don't think there's as much pressure  to try to please everyone as there used to be.

That's something that many people didn't understad at first. He said he needed a break and lots of fans thought it meant "I'm going to take some time off and slow down a bit", but he headed into launching 4363473 new bands. I always got that he meant that he was burned out of the work with DT and actually needed a break from that. And I was cool with it. Sadly, what got him there is that he wanted to be in control of SO MUCH at the same time that he wasn't willing to let some ot them go (or maybe the rest just got used to him doing it) so that he could have a more relaxed "job" aside from actually writing/recording/touring. Some of his last interviews while on DT were about how he always wore so many hats outside of just being the drummer for a band, and he took pride in it, but he was definitely feeling burnt out by it, and the relationships inside the band were suffering because of his control freak attitude. I still remember an interview with Jordan right after MP left where he said Mike was like "DT police" always wanting to have a say on what they played or wrote or did with the band. It was frustrating for them too.


Quote
But Mike's public statements where they had to step in weren't "months" before, unless I am misremembering.  It was right before the end.  And that is important, for this reason:  (1) VERY shortly after Mike made his statements, his fixed term contract was nearing its end.  (2) At that time, he was told by A7X that they already has finished auditions and made a decision about who they were bringing in as a full member.  That's key.

As far as (2) is concerned you're mis-remembering.

"We begged him to consider what he did, because we were in no position to find a permanent replacement"

http://bravewords.com/news/avenged-sevenfold-guitarist-discusses-drummer-mike-portnoy-and-post-dream-theater-fallout-in-new-video-interview-thats-not-how-we-do-business

What I remember is that they always said it was a temporary thing for a fixed period of time. He decided to quit DT and said "I can be with you guys full time now", and they said no way, we never talked about this.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1071 on: November 07, 2019, 12:14:32 PM »
Quote
But Mike's public statements where they had to step in weren't "months" before, unless I am misremembering.  It was right before the end.  And that is important, for this reason:  (1) VERY shortly after Mike made his statements, his fixed term contract was nearing its end.  (2) At that time, he was told by A7X that they already has finished auditions and made a decision about who they were bringing in as a full member.  That's key.

As far as (2) is concerned you're mis-remembering.

"We begged him to consider what he did, because we were in no position to find a permanent replacement"

http://bravewords.com/news/avenged-sevenfold-guitarist-discusses-drummer-mike-portnoy-and-post-dream-theater-fallout-in-new-video-interview-thats-not-how-we-do-business

What I remember is that they always said it was a temporary thing for a fixed period of time. He decided to quit DT and said "I can be with you guys full time now", and they said no way, we never talked about this.

Yeah, exactly.  That's the crux of it.  But Cruithne is right in what he posted--I did misremember part of that and mixed up some of the facts with Mangini auditioning with DT, so he was right to correct me.  But, yeah, the plan was always for Mike just to be a temp.  They didn't know what direction they were going to take in terms of a permanent drummer, and it turned out that Arin Ilejay ended up being the guy and then was LATER made a permanent member (and then eventually parted ways).  But I guess I was also partly wrong about the money as well.  I poking around and doing some research, I found an interview where they actually do mention that and say it was a factor right from the beginning in their mindset in just having Mike fill in temporarily while they figured out what they were doing to do, whether they would even continue on, and just trying to cope with Rev's death:

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Gates: I think he definitely wanted to. And it would have been really nice. He's a great guy and a great drummer, and we consider him family. But it's just He's "Mike Portnoy." He's established. He makes a lot of money. More than we can really dish out, especially at this point. And my whole thing after Jimmy ["The Rev" Sullivan, AVENGED SEVENFOLD's late drummer] died was if we were ever going to do this, I wanted to give a young kid a chance. That would have been a dream come true, to breathe some new life from a death. And so this feels right.

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/avenged-sevenfold-we-urged-mike-portnoy-against-quitting-dream-theater/
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1072 on: November 07, 2019, 01:10:28 PM »
I don't know how much I would say that the money thing was a factor just because I'd imagine MP would've been willing to take a pay cut if he could've stayed on with A7X on a permanent basis. I mean, he willingly took a pay cut the moment that he split from the band. He knew that. And he was willing to do that because he felt it was more important to be happy than to simply continue collecting a fat paycheck.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline gzarruk

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It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline emtee

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1074 on: November 09, 2019, 11:52:46 AM »
Classless comment. I used to be such a huge fan. Not so
much nowadays. I guess I'll pass on MMXX.

Offline ?

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1075 on: November 09, 2019, 11:59:31 AM »
Just for fun, here's a list of all DT songs Mike has performed live so far with different bands since leaving DT in 2010:

Take the Time (Noturnall)
Under a Glass Moon (Noturnall)
The Mirror (Haken, MP Shattered Fortress)
A Change of Seasons: I. The Crimson Sunrise (Metal Masters, PSMS)
Burning my Soul (PSMS)
Hell's Kitchen (PSMS, Sons of Apollo)
Lines in the Sand (PSMS, Sons of Apollo)
Just Let me Breathe (Sons of Apollo)
Anna Lee (PSMS)
Overture 1928 (MP Shattered Fortress)
Strange Deja Vu (MP Shattered Fortress)
Home (MP Shattered Fortress)
The Dance of Eternity (MP Shattered Fortress)
Finally Free (MP Shattered Fortress)
The Glass Prison (MP Shattered Fortress)
As I Am (Noturnall)
This Dying Soul (MP Shattered Fortress)
The Root of All Evil (MP Shattered Fortress)
Repentance (Flying Colors, MP Shattered Fortress)
The Shattered Fortress (MP Shattered Fortress)
I vaguely recall that he also played Peruvian Skies, either with his son's band or the opening act for one of his own bands, but I can't remember where I read about it.
We discussed it here on the SOA thread, because I remember someone posted something along the lines of “Hey Mike, what are you doing? Rewriting history, and you?” :lol
That was me actually :P
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 12:13:59 PM by ? »

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1076 on: November 09, 2019, 12:21:32 PM »
Well that was a stupid thing to say on air. He really doesn’t think sometimes, does he?
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1077 on: November 09, 2019, 12:33:42 PM »
Well that was a stupid thing to say on air. He really doesn’t think sometimes, does he?

Yeah, one would think that by now he would have learnt. He was clearly joking, he wasn't fuming with hatred while saying that, but still a tasteless joke and again - he should know better by now.

Also, nerd alert, I'd like to hand him the Time Stone to travel back in time and avoid getting in the first place James' "annyoing vocals", good luck breaking it big with Charlie Dominici singing Pull Me Under or with another random singer. Enjoy your bar band carreer without the lucky coincidence of the PERFECT singer at the right time.
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Online SeRoX

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1078 on: November 09, 2019, 01:02:58 PM »
I'm not surprised. He's been so quite.
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Online Anguyen92

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1079 on: November 09, 2019, 01:18:35 PM »
Well that was a stupid thing to say on air. He really doesn’t think sometimes, does he?

Well, he thought they were not on the air, but honestly, I feel like that off the cuff type of comment really shouldn't be made to anyone with any media connections, because something like this could spread all kinds of clickbait nonsense (not from the radio, but elsewhere).  Now Blabbermouth is going to run away with it somehow since the video is there.

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1080 on: November 09, 2019, 01:32:11 PM »
Well, I was more of thinking he knows everything he says can be taken out of context, and he’s pretty much hinted that he doesn’t like JLB that much, so it’s probably not a good thing to say ever. And you’re right, least of all to someone in the media. But why is he the only one that takes jabs (for the most part, maybe JLB has said something before, I think he has). I think everyone in the studio was kinda shocked when he said it.
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Offline Metropolaris

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1081 on: November 09, 2019, 01:40:55 PM »

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1082 on: November 09, 2019, 01:45:33 PM »
MP at it again: https://www.facebook.com/justinknoxph/videos/782193328868889/





 :corn

I don't have a Facebook, what did he do this time?

This is the conversation transcribed by a reply post in that link.

Quote
DJ : but liguid tension was good, the problem is the language
MP : but that was make it good, THAT'S LIKE DREAM THEATER WITHOUT ANNOYING VOCALS, it was perfect.
ALL : (laughing)
MP : We're not on the air right?
DJ : Yes we are
MP : ARE WE?!!!!!
DJ : but nobody understand english here , i will not translate it , no problem

Edit: Now it's been removed or inaccessible in that link.

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1083 on: November 09, 2019, 02:01:22 PM »
He's obviously talking about himself.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1084 on: November 09, 2019, 02:17:54 PM »


To be fair, A7X was his choice at first, like Bosk was saying, but it obviously didn't play out the way he expected it to be. I think the idea of joining a well stablished band and using his arranging/production skills fully in that band would be another good option for him to consider, given where Mike's professional career is at right now. The problem there, tho, would be to find a big enough band that needs a drummer and that is satisfying musically for him to stay, and there's not many bands that'd fit that criteria out there. And it's not like he could go solo and just tour with a bunch of no names either, unless they are pretty good writers too, because MP isn't exactly a songwriter by himself. He needs good songwriters like Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.

Follow the money; well established (mid level rock/metal) bands are probably hesitant to take a drummer like MP on full-time on a permanent basis because of the salary he commands. Take Ax7 for example, they had a number 1 record that is nearing platinum status and an extremely successful world tour and it still wasn’t enough to secure himself the gig. Why bring MP on when you can get an unknown who will do what they are told, do an album and tour for $50k and demand no publishing, writing credits, merch participation etc. All bullshit aside, I suspect $$$ played a much bigger role in Portnoy not being in Ax7 than anything else. It sounds cynical but no one in metal REALLY likes paying musicians (see Ozzy, Dio, Tobias Forge, the list goes on and on)

This is why Portnoy pretty much HAS to take on multiple projects, and they are usually (supergroup) projects where he has some skin in the game.

I disagree with that about as strongly as I possibly could given the lack of hard data to back up either of our positions.  Unless and until I hear something indicating that money was an issue, I'm not buying that it was.  A7X has a LOT more financial resources than DT ever had.  Even if they kept MP on as a long-term, semi-permanent "hired gun" and never made him a full member, he likely would have made more from that than he ever made in DT.  I disagree that he commands more money because of his status in DT. 

And regarding his making money in side projects, I'm betting that most of those projects generate peanuts.  He isn't making a whole lot of money from those.

If I’ve learned anything about the music business, and lineup changes over the years, it’s ALWAYS about money. To clarify, it’s less about what Portnoy “commands” and more about perception and having an ownership/participation in the music. And it’s probably not even on the Portnoy side; I’m sure he would have done Ax7 for free, but they were most likely hesitant in keeping someone on they knew would be unhappy given zero publishing credits and a small salary and kept as a “hired gun”. I would assume that plays a big role in what Ax7 means when they say “Portnoy wasn’t the right fit”. As another poster mention; it’s a respect thing when you’re dealing with someone of Portnoy’s caliber. And surprise surprise they went with a complete nobody for their next album.  So, sure, maybe not DIRECTLY about the money...but indirectly...