The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)

[bosk1]

Related to this topic, I am listening to Systematic Chaos this morning.  Say what you will about the album.  But as far as MP's drumming, there are some drum parts, especially on ITPOE and CM, that are pretty innovative and creative. 

[The Walrus]

Related to this topic, I am listening to Systematic Chaos this morning.  Say what you will about the album.  But as far as MP's drumming, there are some drum parts, especially on ITPOE and CM, that are pretty innovative and creative.

One of the best MP parts, imo, is listening to his drums build up just before and throughout the guitar solo in Constant Motion. I never paid much attention to them until I tried to play them on Rock Band and holy crap! It just keeps growing as the guitar gets more and more wild.

[bosk1]

Related to this topic, I am listening to Systematic Chaos this morning.  Say what you will about the album.  But as far as MP's drumming, there are some drum parts, especially on ITPOE and CM, that are pretty innovative and creative.

One of the best MP parts, imo, is listening to his drums build up just before and throughout the guitar solo in Constant Motion. I never paid much attention to them until I tried to play them on Rock Band and holy crap! It just keeps growing as the guitar gets more and more wild.

For sure.  That part is incredible.  But his drumming on the entire thing is so cool.  If you listen to the isolated drums, even in parts where it seems very straightforward, he will play 2 bars or so straight, and then on the next one, throw in some incredible subtle little nuances that sound totally unexpected.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSmA-XV7kPg

[Kocak]

Related to this topic, I am listening to Systematic Chaos this morning.  Say what you will about the album.  But as far as MP's drumming, there are some drum parts, especially on ITPOE and CM, that are pretty innovative and creative.

One of the best MP parts, imo, is listening to his drums build up just before and throughout the guitar solo in Constant Motion. I never paid much attention to them until I tried to play them on Rock Band and holy crap! It just keeps growing as the guitar gets more and more wild.

He has some amazing drum parts indeed. And the part leading up to the guitar solo of CM is just bloody brilliant.

Also, practice is rather important, it's not just about the upkeep of chops, it's also about generating new ideas through added skill. Being a full time musician isn't just marketing.

I'm glad someone said it. Because while I am not a musician either, it strikes me as very odd when a guy (such as MP) says that they don't practice. I mean, are you saying you are the best you can be? I don't think so. Even Peart practiced to get himself better. And MP, as great as he is, certainly is no Peart. MP should absolutely be practicing and developing his skill level. Look at Mike Mangini. Dude continually practices...

I love MP, don't get my posts wrong. But his whole nomadic approach just sours me. I have no real interest in what he does any longer, because I know there's no long term commitment.

Indeed, practicing isn't just about the upkeep of skills either. It's about adding something new to your pool of talent as well. I have huge respect for his body of work, especially pre-2010, not just DT, his Transatlantic and LTE work is legendary, in my opinion.

His OSI drumming was genuinely perfect for me. Once, I hung out with Kevin Moore when we lived in the same city, we were talking about session musicians and recording other people's music, he told me that when it came time to do the second OSI album, he and Mike didn't really get along because he wanted him to stop being Mike Portnoy and be the drummer for the song as he was there as a session musician, specifically the two didn't see eye to eye about playing less 16th notes and such. He praised Mike Portnoy's drumming ability but he did say that he needs to expand his go-to set of drum tricks, because the up and coming generation of drumming won't be so kind to him and surpass him. (Not my words.) And this was more than 10 years ago now. I know drumming is not a race and everybody has a different style.

I don't mean practicing just in terms of sitting in front of a drum kit for 12 hours a day and playing rudiments. Rudiments are indeed important, but unleashing creativity behind a drum kit requires a different kind of focus and that is what MP is not getting right at the moment. (Purely my opinion.) I am yet to hear anything that truly impressed me by MP since Systematic Chaos to be honest. Conversely, other drummers continuously find impressive ways to utilise the drum kit. Which begs the question: Why should I spend money something that I have heard before?

[Stadler]

I go both ways on this; to some extent he is now doing exactly what Kevin asked him.

And I still buy Cheap Trick and AC/DC records, and I kind of know exactly what I'm going to get, more or less. 

Not to negate your point, because you clearly have more insight than I do; I'm just saying there is no easy or "right" answer.

[Kocak]

I go both ways on this; to some extent he is now doing exactly what Kevin asked him.

And I still buy Cheap Trick and AC/DC records, and I kind of know exactly what I'm going to get, more or less. 

Not to negate your point, because you clearly have more insight than I do; I'm just saying there is no easy or "right" answer.

Oh, I am aware that there is no right or wrong answer. Music is a matter of personal taste and it evolves/morphs over time as well. And, yes, indeed, you know what you're going to get with the likes of AC/DC and Cheap Trick, but with the plethora of projects that MP is in, obviously he's gunning for "diversity" and I guess, I would rather see quality instead of quantity.

[TAC]

I go both ways

[KevShmev]

  MP knows everyone, ya know?

True, but knowing someone doesn't mean you want to work with someone.   What Kocak said below did not surprise me at all.  Working with someone who is difficult, especially if that person isn't integral to the creative process, can be maddening.

I remember, post-DT, but still many years ago, MP came in for a rehearsal with one of his projects, with an impressive lineup of musicians I must add. I was still a Studio Assistant at the time. He wasn't the easiest guy to get along with for us as a crew and band members alike. Especially compared to the other band members. Adaptability is rather important. As a long time fan at the time, it was interesting for me to see him without it being a DVD or interview. Certainly destroyed the aura for me.

Now, before the Portnoy fan brigade comes after me with their pitchforks, I am not saying Portnoy contributes nothing to the creative process.  What I mean is that if you putting something who is difficult is a lot easier when they are THE main songwriter/creative process, or a major one.  When you are a drummer who is more of an arranger than a songwriter AND difficult to get along with, your value takes a hit.

Long story short, while Portnoy obviously knows a lot of people in the business, I suspect that many of those people who little to no interest in actually working with him, which is probably why there is so much overlap of the same musicians across the various projects he is involved with.

Oh, I am aware that there is no right or wrong answer. Music is a matter of personal taste and it evolves/morphs over time as well. And, yes, indeed, you know what you're going to get with the likes of AC/DC and Cheap Trick, but with the plethora of projects that MP is in, obviously he's gunning for "diversity" and I guess, I would rather see quality instead of quantity.

Honestly, I don't think he's going for diversity (and he is failing miserably if that is the goal ). I just think he likes staying busy and always having something music-related to work on.  Despite many thinking he doesn't practice enough to expand his skills, no one would ever accuse guy of not being a workaholic.

[Kocak]

  MP knows everyone, ya know?

True, but knowing someone doesn't mean you want to work with someone.   What Kocak said below did not surprise me at all.  Working with someone who is difficult, especially if that person isn't integral to the creative process, can be maddening.

I remember, post-DT, but still many years ago, MP came in for a rehearsal with one of his projects, with an impressive lineup of musicians I must add. I was still a Studio Assistant at the time. He wasn't the easiest guy to get along with for us as a crew and band members alike. Especially compared to the other band members. Adaptability is rather important. As a long time fan at the time, it was interesting for me to see him without it being a DVD or interview. Certainly destroyed the aura for me.

Now, before the Portnoy fan brigade comes after me with their pitchforks, I am not saying Portnoy contributes nothing to the creative process.  What I mean is that if you putting something who is difficult is a lot easier when they are THE main songwriter/creative process, or a major one.  When you are a drummer who is more of an arranger than a songwriter AND difficult to get along with, your value takes a hit.

Long story short, while Portnoy obviously knows a lot of people in the business, I suspect that many of those people who little to no interest in actually working with him, which is probably why there is so much overlap of the same musicians across the various projects he is involved with.

Oh, I am aware that there is no right or wrong answer. Music is a matter of personal taste and it evolves/morphs over time as well. And, yes, indeed, you know what you're going to get with the likes of AC/DC and Cheap Trick, but with the plethora of projects that MP is in, obviously he's gunning for "diversity" and I guess, I would rather see quality instead of quantity.

Honestly, I don't think he's going for diversity (and he is failing miserably if that is the goal ). I just think he likes staying busy and always having something music-related to work on.  Despite many thinking he doesn't practice enough to expand his skills, no one would ever accuse guy of not being a workaholic.

Well, if you ask him, he has his metal side, his hard rock side, his prog side, and his pop side (FC).

Also, indeed, not everyone will be fine with him taking the lead at all times.

[Setlist Scotty]

Conversely, other drummers continuously find impressive ways to utilise the drum kit. Which begs the question: Why should I spend money something that I have heard before?

Last time I checked, there were typically 3 or 4 other musicians on any given album that includes MP. I'd say that should be enough to still purchase said albums, even if MP is still using the same bag of tricks. It's not just a specific instrument, but it's the music as a whole. If what MP plays is appropriate to the song, then does it really matter if it's some variation of what he's used elsewhere? I'd like to think not, but YMMV.

[Adami]

I feel like MP is held to an insanely high standard that almost no one else is.

I admit, there are a few bands that I didn't buy their most recent album because it's almost the exact same thing as their last several albums. Epica, Eden Briidge, probably the next Mark Tremonti album, etc.

But a drummer? I don't hear any major growth in drumming from almost any drummer outside of some of the greatest greats like Neil Peart. But no one else is Neil.

I don't see why people demand Portnoy, specifically, change his style often. He does his thing.

Maybe it's because he has a very signature style. Phil Rudd doesn't have a style, he just plays a beat, so people don't care much if he keeps doing that over and over. 95% of drummers out there don't have the very signature style that Portnoy does, so when you hear that sound....you know it. So I can understand if people are getting sick of his signature style. If that's the case, that's cool. But I'm not sure it's the same as demanding he grow and evolve, whatever that means in his case. He also, recently, has been playing with some pretty dull bands.

So maybe if he played more interesting music and changed up his work ethic and stopped trying to produce everything super fast and efficiently, people would be a bit more forgiving for his repetitive style.

[KevShmev]

Well, if you ask him, he has his metal side, his hard rock side, his prog side, and his pop side (FC)

Well, leaving aside the fact that Flying Colors is not pop (unless catchy songs automatically = pop), and that the majority of songs from their second album for example would fit nicely on a Neal Morse solo/Band album (musically, if not lyrically), all of those styles are, at root, rock music. 

[Anguyen92]

I think, at the end of the day, MP understands how to approach his drumming well so that it accommodates the direction of the songs of the projects he is involved.

People like Winery Dogs, and the stuff he's done with Neal Morse and some people hate the stuff he did with AMob and is pretty so-so with SOA.  If a lesser well-known or lesser talented drummer were in those bands, most likely, the drums in those songs would have suffered more from it than if MP was the drummer which speaks well to MP's aura as a drummer.

[goo-goo]

I’ve always thought MP would  be a great fit for Alter Bridge. I’ve always pictured AB with a little more cymbal work, accents, that kind of stuff, which MP is great at. The AB drummer sounded very stale and samey up to The Last Hero, which I think its Flips best drumming.

I think MP has been a victim of very formulaic bands and playing. In my opinion, his drumming in Winery Dogs has been its best and most original material post DT. Transatlantic, NMB and FC have become very predictable and I’m not sure if that is completely MP’s fault. His fault lies in trying to be in many bands and projects.

The way things are going, the only real shoot in MP being in a big band is probably Iron Maiden. Nicko last year said mentioned retirement for him was close.  I think the other Maiden guys have a lot more gas to keep going than Nicko (he is the oldest IM member I think).

[cramx3]

People like Winery Dogs, and the stuff he's done with Neal Morse and some people hate the stuff he did with AMob and is pretty so-so with SOA.  If a lesser well-known or lesser talented drummer were in those bands, most likely, the drums in those songs would have suffered more from it than if MP was the drummer which speaks well to MP's aura as a drummer.

I think MP has been a victim of very formulaic bands and playing. In my opinion, his drumming in Winery Dogs has been its best and most original material post DT.

Interesting take since my view is slightly different.  My reason for liking TWD has very little to do with MP's drumming.  Not to criticize it, it's really the overall song writing and music, not any particular instrument, that really draws me to TWD.  I feel like Ritchie is probably the only irreplaceable member of that band (being songwriter, voice, and guitar), but that trio seemed to work really well with each other to play within themselves and not be over the top, yet just be consistently good in making good rock n roll songs.  Whereas I feel SOA is kind of the opposite, over the top without the best song writing and yet, MP's drums stand out much more to me from that band.

[TAC]

But a drummer? I don't hear any major growth in drumming from almost any drummer outside of some of the greatest greats like Neil Peart. But no one else is Neil.

I didn't hear any growth in Neil's drumming after 1981. I mean, he made sure everyone knew he was studying with different techniques and shit, but ..

[Stadler]

I go both ways

Dammit.

[Zydar]

[Stadler]

Well, if you ask him, he has his metal side, his hard rock side, his prog side, and his pop side (FC).

And I've written about that before.  For me, if there is any drop-off in the material with him, it is, in my opinion, when he started talking about "genres".   The beautiful thing about the early DT was they didn't give a f--- if it was "prog" or "metal" or "rock", they put it out.   I bought I&W on release, and I was blown away because it was like Alex Lifeson playing with Iron Maiden and Steve Perry singing.  I LOVED it.   Instead of mixing the prog, the metal, the pop, etc., his projects since about 2010 have been the "metal project" and the "prog project" and the "pop project" and the "hard rock project".  Just play, man.  Just play. 

Phil Rudd doesn't have a style, he just plays a beat, so people don't care much if he keeps doing that over and over. 95% of drummers out there don't have the very signature style that Portnoy does, so when you hear that sound....you know it.

I get your point, and I agree with it, but I object to the example; there's a reason that Malcolm kept giving Rudd a shot in the band even though they fought like cats and dogs.  He IS simple, but he has a certain Jenny seequaw that makes AC/DC work.   it's not provable, really, because I have all the albums, know the songs and know who plays on them, but I think I could tell you an AC/DC song with Rudd and without.   When the recent rumors came about that AC/DC is in Vancouver, and that Johnson was there with the band (but so was Axl), I was excited, but I didn't really get invested, until I heard that Phil is there too.    I think Phil is more important than anyone not named "Young" in that band.

I’ve always thought MP would  be a great fit for Alter Bridge.   <CUT>
I think MP has been a victim of very formulaic bands and playing.

Blasphemy alert, but I think AB is same-y and formulaic, other than Myles (I love Myles).   It's by far my least favorite Myles project, and for that reason.  It's still good, there's nothing, necessarily, wrong with "formulaic" if it's of a high quality (and AB is) but I greatly prefer Myles in Slash's band or solo.

The way things are going, the only real shoot in MP being in a big band is probably Iron Maiden. Nicko last year said mentioned retirement for him was close.  I think the other Maiden guys have a lot more gas to keep going than Nicko (he is the oldest IM member I think).

He is. He's 66, the next oldest is Steve at 62, then the guitar players are all 61 and Bruce is 60.   My GOD, can you believe that Iron Maiden are all in their SIXTIES?    Where the f--- has the time went???   I generally hate those "if so-and-so leaves, who would replace them?" conversations - it's still a band, might even be a good band, but I'm a firm fan of chemistry in a band - but I would pay to see Mike in Maiden.  I think he would bring it the gravitas it deserves.  I really wished he would have come to the USA with Twisted (I know they played a date or two, but I mean a tour). 

[MirrorMask]

Not to hijack the thread, but while I totally don't want Maiden to go the way of AC/DC, I think that if Nicko would say "listen guys, I'm old, I can't do it anymore, but I don't want to have the end of the band on my conscience, you guys just go on a little more, it's fine with me", the band would consider going. Rod Smallwood would certainly want them to.

But I don't think that Mike would get the gig, on account of not being english. Steve Harris was pretty stubborn about it when it was time to pick Bruce's replacement, and after 40 years and counting of being a british band, I'm not sure he'd want to cross the finish line with an american drummer. Surely in that hypothetical scenario of "Nicko retires and urges the band to go on" Mike could fill the shoes, technically and on a certain kind of name recognition level.

[The Walrus]

And then Mike would have Iron Maiden logos stamped on his cymbals and merchandise for the rest of his life 

[Indiscipline]

Portnoy could fill those shoes, but the perfect fit would be Simon Phillips.

[Architeuthis]

Being that MP has been such an avid Maiden fan, he probably allready knows most of their material on drums. So yeah he would be a good fit and could easily pull it off.
 I know it will never happen but hypothetically speaking, if Geddy and Alex decided to do an album and tour, Mike could pull that off too. It may sound a bit different, but it would be effective.

[KevShmev]

 I know it will never happen but hypothetically speaking, if Geddy and Alex decided to do an album and tour, Mike could pull that off too. It may sound a bit different, but it would be effective.

No.  Just, no.

[Adami]

 I know it will never happen but hypothetically speaking, if Geddy and Alex decided to do an album and tour, Mike could pull that off too. It may sound a bit different, but it would be effective.

No.  Just, no.

Yea. Rush is those three guys and only those three guys.

[Architeuthis]

I know you guys, that's why I was hypothetically speaking. Rush wouldn't be the same without Neil.
If Geddy and Alex did another project under a different name, it would still be worth checking out.

[TAC]

Portnoy could fill those shoes, but the perfect fit would be Simon Phillips.

Maybe for the 80's era. But he'd ruin the rest of the catalog.

[Mosh]

If Nicko quits I bet he will be replaced by one of his kids, another band member’s kid, or a drummer who plays with one of the band members’ kids.

[Adami]

Hm, so does anyone else think that if Mangini quits, Max Portnoy should replace him?

[Architeuthis]

Hm, so does anyone else think that if Mangini quits, Max Portnoy should replace him?

Do-hhh! 

[?]

I know you guys, that's why I was hypothetically speaking. Rush wouldn't be the same without Neil.
If Geddy and Alex did another project under a different name, it would still be worth checking out.

Yes, but someone who they actually know and have worked with, like Matt Cameron, who played on Geddy's solo album, would be a much more likely choice, especially when MP has admitted he didn't like the post-Signals material that much, besides Counterparts and the last few albums.

[Peter Mc]

Conversely, other drummers continuously find impressive ways to utilise the drum kit. Which begs the question: Why should I spend money something that I have heard before?

Because it's only the drums? 

It's a backing instrument that can absolutely enhance a song to a small degree but's way down the list of importance in terms of what makes a great song.  A great, creative, innovative song is still great if the drummer is not doing anything out of the ordinary.  A poor song is not made great by some jaw dropping skills on the drums.

If you are a drummer and buy music solely to listen to the drumming then I guess it's important and feel free to ignore my above comment but otherwise, if you love the songs, does it really matter how innovative the drumming is?

[Stadler]

 I know it will never happen but hypothetically speaking, if Geddy and Alex decided to do an album and tour, Mike could pull that off too. It may sound a bit different, but it would be effective.

No.  Just, no.

Yea. Rush is those three guys and only those three guys.

But that has been proven to be false time and time again.    Dream Theater WAS Mike Portnoy for a while (or so some though) and well...     Led Zeppelin WAS Bonham, and while they never really recorded anything "as" Led Zeppelin without him, by all accounts both Michael Lee and Jason Bonham acquitted themselves well playing the Zeppelin material.    The Dead wasn't "The Dead" without Jerry, but in fact, they are, literally and figuratively "The Dead" without Jerry.  Floyd was supposed to be NOTHING without Roger, and the Division Bell is here to tell you otherwise. 

[Adami]

 I know it will never happen but hypothetically speaking, if Geddy and Alex decided to do an album and tour, Mike could pull that off too. It may sound a bit different, but it would be effective.

No.  Just, no.

Yea. Rush is those three guys and only those three guys.

But that has been proven to be false time and time again.    Dream Theater WAS Mike Portnoy for a while (or so some though) and well...     Led Zeppelin WAS Bonham, and while they never really recorded anything "as" Led Zeppelin without him, by all accounts both Michael Lee and Jason Bonham acquitted themselves well playing the Zeppelin material.    The Dead wasn't "The Dead" without Jerry, but in fact, they are, literally and figuratively "The Dead" without Jerry.  Floyd was supposed to be NOTHING without Roger, and the Division Bell is here to tell you otherwise.

No, that has never been proven false, that Rush is only those three guys. If I had said "other rock bands are only the key members", that has been proven false. Luckily, I was not talking about Dream Theater Zeppelin, The Dead, Floyd, or any other band.

When Rush go out there with a new drummer and are accepted, then I will be proven wrong. Possible, but not terribly likely, since they have all said so.

Anyway, this is going very off topic. Better off in the Rush thread.


As far as MP goes, I'm hoping there is a next Flying Colors album, and that it's good. Don't care much for his other projects.

[Indiscipline]

Portnoy could fill those shoes, but the perfect fit would be Simon Phillips.

Maybe for the 80's era. But he'd ruin the rest of the catalog.

Oh. Is there a rest of the catalog? *wink*