The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)

[MirrorMask]

I think one issue, mostly with bands like SOA, are that MP got into a very good and comfortable rhythm and work process with DT and then tried to apply to the new bands, without realizing that this process was only successful after years and years and years of working with this band, building the rhythm from scratch and easing into it. Doing it without all of that stuff results in half-baked, rushed products that don't have the brotherhood or chemistry necessary to carry them through.

...or people like Petrucci and Rudess that, as LTE proved, are able to crank out excellent music a in a very short amount of time.

[Adami]

I think one issue, mostly with bands like SOA, are that MP got into a very good and comfortable rhythm and work process with DT and then tried to apply to the new bands, without realizing that this process was only successful after years and years and years of working with this band, building the rhythm from scratch and easing into it. Doing it without all of that stuff results in half-baked, rushed products that don't have the brotherhood or chemistry necessary to carry them through.

...or people like Petrucci and Rudess that, as LTE proved, are able to crank out excellent music a in a very short amount of time.

Yes, and that is very rare. But even with LTE, you had years of chemistry between Portnoy and Petrucci to help. Also LTE was a different beast since it's instrumental, often times jam music. The writing style is VERY different. I'm pretty confident that if MP went the LTE route with other musicians, it would actually turn out pretty awesome, since those are his strengths, he just needs to find people with similar strengths.

[Architeuthis]

I hope SOA hangs in there long enough to make a cutting edge second record and see where it goes. It would be a shame to throw in the towel this early. A sophmore effort should be on the agenda.

Only if they all say fuck it and try and do something special, instead of trying to appeal to the masses with the generic crap they did on the first album.

I wouldn't go as far as calling their first album generic, it has its strong points and the material translated even better live.  I do think they have a better one in them though.

[cramx3]

It would be nice for a follow up album if for no other reason than to follow through with what they said, which is forming a full time band.  To me that means a follow up is necessary, otherwise you kind of justified all the shit talk you got when you started the band and that shit talk will follow to whatever else MP were to start next.    Now I'm not saying it should be forced, if the guys feel they have no chemistry anymore, than so be it, you can't force the art, but with the talent and a great live show, these guys should put the effort to make a better second album and then see where that leads. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be great for them to tag along as the opener for a big band.  Doesn't even need to be prog, but a big metal band.  Even if it's one of three bands on the bill, get out there in front of large audiences to build the name.  Right now, playing small gigs is only possible if they aren't willing to do the things necessary to build a band.  For example, I saw Pop Evil open for Cheap Trick and Poison this summer.  I don't see why SOA couldn't be in that Pop Evil spot.  Probably would have blown away a lot of the audience too with their musicianship and reached a new audience.  What do I know though.

[gborland]

I have to believe that Mike wants back on a bigger stage at some point...

Why do you think he's being so civil to the DT guys on social media lately? He's making a huge deal out of the fact that his and JP's daughters are best buddies. You think he has an agenda? 

[Nick]

I have to believe that Mike wants back on a bigger stage at some point...

Why do you think he's being so civil to the DT guys on social media lately? He's making a huge deal out of the fact that his and JP's daughters are best buddies. You think he has an agenda? 

I think you're confusing him with Neal Morse.

[bosk1]

[Stadler]

I have to believe that Mike wants back on a bigger stage at some point...

Why do you think he's being so civil to the DT guys on social media lately? He's making a huge deal out of the fact that his and JP's daughters are best buddies. You think he has an agenda? 

I had a friend that was/is an AMAZING drummer.  Did some work with a band that had a national tour lined up (it wasn't Dangerous Toys, but it was someone like that), and was offered that tour.   He just found ways to sabotage the gig.   Asking for crazy shit (for a hired hand drummer).  Later another friend (the school teacher from the other thread by the way) met a dude with a cassette of songs and they thought they would give it one shot to see what could happen.  They called the drummer to come in.  Rehearsals were SICK; it was like a Cheap Trick/Oasis thing, and they started to line up some shows, and even got a headlining gig at Toad's Place (some of you have been there to see Dream Theater) and the week before the gig, he started to get wonky again. "I need a new drum set for a gig like that".   Blah blah blah.   Ended up not doing the show and quitting the band.  He sells insurance now.   

Point is, I get a similar vibe from Mike, but on a bigger scale.  It's like he WANTS to be at a certain level, but doesn't quite know how to get there.  He gets close then does something to sort of sabotage it.  Turning point for DT and he ups and quits, thinking the grass is greener with A7X, but he misplays that badly and he's out.   Amob.  Then there's the eve of the biggest album of Neal Morse's career, and he gets into his first fight with a guy that he's worked with for 20 years (and I don't know what anyone else thinks, but it doesn't seem the same since then).   Then SOA, and even though he's the man in charge, calling all the shots, they play games with the membership (though admittedly, that may not have been a choice), then they piss off half the potential fanbase before even a note of music is played...   

I'm a very big fan of the idea that a band is like a sports team.  It's not enough to be a good guitar player or drummer.  You need a guy in the band with vision.  You need a guy in the band that has no conscience (figuratively).  You need a guy in the band that can and will do anything (musically) that the work calls for.   You need a guy that is as reliable as the sun, to pick up the pieces when the shit hits the fan.  And you need a guy that is immune to the criticism wherever and from whomever it comes.    Even solo guys (like Springsteen) have all those pieces covered (and that's what makes them legends).     Maybe Mike has exactly the career he wants; I can't speak to that, only he can.   But I'm not getting that vibe, to be honest (and the path he's taken - 87 bands all circulating at once) is not a model that can extend forever.   McCartney and Jagger can do what they do at 70, I don't see Mike touring clubs with a  rag-tag allegiance of metal guys at 70 and being thrilled with it. 

[bosk1]

I could be mistaken, but I think you're reading a lot into Portnoy that isn't there.

[gborland]

Next month I'll be seeing SoA playing the same tiny club that MP and DS played with DT on the FII tour 20 years ago. That has to hurt.

[Anxiety35]

I have to believe that Mike wants back on a bigger stage at some point...

Why do you think he's being so civil to the DT guys on social media lately? He's making a huge deal out of the fact that his and JP's daughters are best buddies. You think he has an agenda? 

Agenda as wanting back in DT? I don't think so. MP and JP have known each other for 30 years or so. They've done a lot of life together. It only seems appropriate that their daughters are close since they grew up with each other.

[Samsara]

The point of my post wasn't to start a "MP back in DT" discussion. While I personally feel that will happen at some point, the fact they are dedicated to MM and he just did drums on another record is proof enough that he is entrenched there until he doesn't want to be. At which time, I think MP would return. But if MM never gets to that point, MP won't be back.

My point was just to talk about how all these projects with lower-level potential, when I have to believe MP desires to get out of clubs and be playing bigger stages on a headline tour. I mean sure, a drummer gig in metal/hard rock -- there's only a few out there. But MP's resume speaks for itself. But a collaboration with some more...popular musicians may open doors for him. He has to have the contacts to leverage that to a degree, does he not?

But I don't know the man at all, which is why I asked the question. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he genuinely enjoys project-hopping and will do so into his 60s until he retires. I just can't see it personally, but since I don't have any insight to the guy, I was just looking for some, to better understand the choices he's made. Music, like politics, is who you know. MP knows everyone, ya know?

[cramx3]

But MP's resume speaks for itself. But a collaboration with some more...popular musicians may open doors for him. He has to have the contacts to leverage that to a degree, does he not?

I kind of thought that's what SOA was. A collaboration with the popular musicians he is close with.  I don't know if the "more popular" musicians out there have opening for MP to start a new band or for him to replace a current drummer in a mainstream band.  It's definitely possible, but I do feel like he wants to have some creative control as well, also hence SOA.  But I wouldn't put it past him to be a hired gun ala A7X or Twisted Sister if the opportunity presented itself.

[Samsara]

But MP's resume speaks for itself. But a collaboration with some more...popular musicians may open doors for him. He has to have the contacts to leverage that to a degree, does he not?

I kind of thought that's what SOA was. A collaboration with the popular musicians he is close with.  I don't know if the "more popular" musicians out there have opening for MP to start a new band or for him to replace a current drummer in a mainstream band.  It's definitely possible, but I do feel like he wants to have some creative control as well, also hence SOA.  But I wouldn't put it past him to be a hired gun ala A7X or Twisted Sister if the opportunity presented itself.

WHat I meant was exactly that. He screwed up the A7X situation (that may not be what is said publicly, but that is what I believe), and obviously Twisted is a legacy act and that has sailed. But acts along those lines. A7X would have (IMO) absolutely given him input. But yeah, something that is a bigger band, or a band on the rise that is just entering that level, that wants to up their game in the drumming and creativity department.

[Kocak]

I have to believe that Mike wants back on a bigger stage at some point...

  Then there's the eve of the biggest album of Neal Morse's career, and he gets into his first fight with a guy that he's worked with for 20 years (and I don't know what anyone else thinks, but it doesn't seem the same since then).

MP had a fight with Neal Morse?

[bosk1]

Who hasn't?  *I* had a fight with Neal Morse. 

[Adami]

Who hasn't?  *I* had a fight with Neal Morse. 

'

Never had a fight with him, but he once made me a very lovely meal just outside of San Fran when i visited his restaurant. Coolest guy.

[Stadler]

I could be mistaken, but I think you're reading a lot into Portnoy that isn't there.

Perhaps.  Most likely.   And I'm loathe to engage in speculation, especially since I probably AM lacking certain facts.  I would probably be the first one to say that "speculation is foolhardy".   But I'm getting a vibe, and I wanted to sort of present that to see if anyone shared it.

[Zydar]

Who hasn't?  *I* had a fight with Neal Morse. 

'

Never had a fight with him, but he once made me a very lovely meal just outside of San Fran when i visited his restaurant. Coolest guy.

[Kocak]

I think MP's controlling nature has worked against him over the course of his post-DT career, it ends up alienating people. He had frequently talked about MP as a brand in past interviews, and I think what he doesn't get is that people look for quality music, not the MP name when buying a record. Obviously, there are MP fanboys, but I don't think they alone can sustain a career.

I remember, post-DT, but still many years ago, MP came in for a rehearsal with one of his projects, with an impressive lineup of musicians I must add. I was still a Studio Assistant at the time. He wasn't the easiest guy to get along with for us as a crew and band members alike. Especially compared to the other band members. Adaptability is rather important. As a long time fan at the time, it was interesting for me to see him without it being a DVD or interview. Certainly destroyed the aura for me.

[DTA]

I think MP's controlling nature has worked against him over the course of his post-DT career, it ends up alienating people. He had frequently talked about MP as a brand in past interviews, and I think what he doesn't get is that people look for quality music, not the MP name when buying a record. Obviously, there are MP fanboys, but I don't think they alone can sustain a career.

I remember, post-DT, but still many years ago, MP came in for a rehearsal with one of his projects, with an impressive lineup of musicians I must add. I was still a Studio Assistant at the time. He wasn't the easiest guy to get along with for us as a crew and band members alike. Especially compared to the other band members. Adaptability is rather important. As a long time fan at the time, it was interesting for me to see him without it being a DVD or interview. Certainly destroyed the aura for me.

Absolutely this. He just seems more concerned with releasing a product quickly rather than creating something really unique and interesting. I don't feel like he actually creates interesting drum parts anymore. He just plays what comes to his mind at the moment and calls it a day rather than composing new and interesting parts to accompany the music.

I feel like The Winery Dogs was his last real attempt to get into a band, but that seems to have fizzled out. SoA has no future IMO. They're behind the curve stylistically, and their genre of music has been done to death.

[bosk1]

...interesting drum parts

He just plays what comes to his mind at the moment and calls it a day

These are not mutually exclusive.

[Kocak]

I think MP's controlling nature has worked against him over the course of his post-DT career, it ends up alienating people. He had frequently talked about MP as a brand in past interviews, and I think what he doesn't get is that people look for quality music, not the MP name when buying a record. Obviously, there are MP fanboys, but I don't think they alone can sustain a career.

I remember, post-DT, but still many years ago, MP came in for a rehearsal with one of his projects, with an impressive lineup of musicians I must add. I was still a Studio Assistant at the time. He wasn't the easiest guy to get along with for us as a crew and band members alike. Especially compared to the other band members. Adaptability is rather important. As a long time fan at the time, it was interesting for me to see him without it being a DVD or interview. Certainly destroyed the aura for me.

Absolutely this. He just seems more concerned with releasing a product quickly rather than creating something really unique and interesting. I don't feel like he actually creates interesting drum parts anymore. He just plays what comes to his mind at the moment and calls it a day rather than composing new and interesting parts to accompany the music.

I feel like The Winery Dogs was his last real attempt to get into a band, but that seems to have fizzled out. SoA has no future IMO. They're behind the curve stylistically, and their genre of music has been done to death.

Thank you for your comment.
I too feel like he is not creating interesting drum parts anymore. Rather, I have heard every MP trick in the book. Winery Dogs was doomed to begin with.

I'm not a professional musician, but I record albums for a living, great music takes time and thought. Often times, it's not about individual skill or 10 uber talented guys coming together, it's about the quality of the overall composition.

Also, practice is rather important, it's not just about the upkeep of chops, it's also about generating new ideas through added skill. Being a full time musician isn't just marketing.

[Samsara]

Also, practice is rather important, it's not just about the upkeep of chops, it's also about generating new ideas through added skill. Being a full time musician isn't just marketing.

I'm glad someone said it. Because while I am not a musician either, it strikes me as very odd when a guy (such as MP) says that they don't practice. I mean, are you saying you are the best you can be? I don't think so. Even Peart practiced to get himself better. And MP, as great as he is, certainly is no Peart. MP should absolutely be practicing and developing his skill level. Look at Mike Mangini. Dude continually practices...

I love MP, don't get my posts wrong. But his whole nomadic approach just sours me. I have no real interest in what he does any longer, because I know there's no long term commitment.

[TAC]

I have no real interest in what he does any longer, because I know there's no long term commitment.

Quoted for truth.

[bosk1]

That's all fine.  But in fairness to Portnoy, the "Mike Portnoy doesn't practice" mantra isn't really true and is taking a comment he made completely out of context. 

From his FAQ: 

Does Mike practice? How does Mike practice? faq id: 484

MP: I don't get to practice as much as I should, and not nearly as much as I used to on the drums. But for me, so much of drumming is actually a mental thing. A lot of drummers spend a lot of time developing the physical side of their drumming, but they disregard the mental side. I get just as much out of sitting at the dinner table or sitting on a toy box and tapping, playing along with my hands and feet as I do sitting behind the kit. Luckily, a drummer's instrument is always attached - two hands and two feet. We don't need a guitar or a piano in order to practice.

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/20.aspx

If you want to know about his current practice techniques, here you go:  https://www.drummersresource.com/mike-portnoy-interview/

Again, not that anyone has to like what he does, what he says, or what his perceived level of commitment is.  But I think one should at least be fair in characterizing what he has said.  He didn't say he doesn't practice.  He does.  But, as that podcast illustrates, his practice routine as a drummer in his 50s is very different than his practice routine as a drummer in his teens or 20s.  Freaks of nature like Mangini excepted (and I mean that as a compliment to Mangini), I think that is perfectly understandable.  But that doesn't mean that he doesn't practice at all or views practice as dispensible.

[The Walrus]

Perhaps others who have classically studied an instrument might understand what I'm about to say and I certainly am not trying to sound elitist because god knows I lost my passion for practicing diligently years ago but... I recall Mike saying during the SOA recordings that 30 mins was a long time to practice a part. I used to spend hours a day practicing passages, weeks learning pieces. Obviously those are other people's works, very challenging works, but 30 mins for even a self made passage or fill still seems very rushed to me, and that's the impression I got with the entire record.

And, just maybe, we all have different beliefs regarding practicing. Clearly Mike does not need to practice paradiddles and whozafluxits and whatnot like when he was a spring chicken. On the other hand... even pros gotta stay sharp, and sometimes that demands rigid practice.

Shrug.

[TAC]

I'm not comfortable saying he doesn't practice enough. I mean, he knows what he needs to do to stay ready.

And not for nothing, but I love his drumming on BC&SL. I've never considered that auto pilot drumming in the least.  I mean, there are tons of great drummers. Mike Portnoy is still my pick in my dream band.

[Indiscipline]

Honestly, I could never find any hint of Mike's lack of practice in any studio output or live performance I've witnessed. I know it's a "thing" only because it's openly talked about. On the other hand, it's evident the man has clearly stopped gunning for the Drummer of the Year Award somewhere around 2004.

[Stadler]

I'm not comfortable saying he doesn't practice enough. I mean, he knows what he needs to do to stay ready.

And not for nothing, but I love his drumming on BC&SL. I've never considered that auto pilot drumming in the least.  I mean, there are tons of great drummers. Mike Portnoy is still my pick in my dream band.

This kind of me.    For all I have to say about Mike, very little of it involves his actual drumming.   Now, the music AROUND his drumming is a different story, but he's still on my Mt. Rushmore of drummers (Bonham, Peart, Collins and Portnoy).  My main complaint is related to Samsara's comment:  there doesn't seem to be a commitment.   I know for me, I'll check out any project because it's Mike, but I'm not INTO every project because it's Mike.   The Winery Dogs was clearly a good combo, but it left me cold (I thought it was his stab at "Black Country Communion"). 

Controversial statement:  when I heard DT back in '92, for me, there was nothing like it.   It was Maiden and Rush jamming, with Steve Perry singing, and it blew me away.   I'm sorry, but for me - and excepting the Neal Morse Band stuff - all the stuff Mike's doing now sounds like something else, sounds like it's trying to capture something else, and frankly, I'd rather just listen to the original.   

[bosk1]

If I had to rank my enjoyment of his other bands he was worked with since leaving DT, it would probably go:

-Neal Morse Band:  Love it all!
-Sons of Apollo:  Antics aside, I really enjoy the album.  Honestly, if Mike only did NMB and SOA, I would be thrilled.
-Flying Colors:  Both albums are pretty good.  There are definitely plenty of songs that do little for me, but some that I really enjoy. 
-Transatlantic:  I enjoy the last album, but it feels like SUCH a dropoff from their last three.  But if their next album is a return to form, I would likely bump them up to the #2 spot.  Their first three albums are some of my favorite music ever.
-Winery Dogs:  First album was okay.  I bought the second on release day just because, but barely listened after the first couple of spins. 

Never bothered to check out anything else.

[Samsara]

I stand corrected about MP and practice. All I recalled was something along the lines that he didn't practice any longer. I am relieved to know he does, just in different ways.

[bosk1]

I have no doubt that you heard that accurately, because it is a rumor that has been going around for awhile.  But the rumor itself is based on a misquote, so I feel compelled to set the record straight.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Mike's drumming in DT and Transatlantic is some of my favorite drumming ever, but honestly I don't think I've liked anything he's done since he left DT. I don't know if it's too many projects, or not enough practice, or the other musicians he's working with, but his projects just don't really do anything for me anymore.

[Anxiety35]

What makes MP one of the greats is his ability to play. While his bag of tricks is the same, it's his trademark. When he plays, you know it's him. Is he the best drummer in the world? No. However if he was available to record a record, he'd be hired in a millisecond. If you could get MP to play on your studio album, would you? I would. Not because of fandom, but because he can get the job done.