The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)

[faizoff]

I went on a binge of all those behind the scenes stuff a few months ago and they are all so fun to watch, it was great to see the progression as well since I had a whole bunch of them to catch up to. I just don't have the Great Adventure one since I bought the regular jewel CD edition and now it's all signed by the band too so don't know if I should double dip just for the making of.

[bosk1]

I think some of the criticisms about Mike (he doesn't care about drumming, he doesn't practice, he doesn't do anything new) are unfair.

Totally.  I have always felt this way.  And as is often the case, it's often someone taking a soundbite and running with it without taking the time to understand the context at all.  MP clearly DOES practice.  But his "practice" at this stage of his life looks very different than it did when he was learning drums, or when he first joined DT, or the first 10 years of his career, etc.  No, he doesn't sit around the kit for hours on end practicing rudiments, or doing speed drills, or an hour-long warmup routine to drill on precision.  But it doesn't need to be those things at this stage in his career.  Stadler, it's no different from the fact that, as you and I continue studying and educating ourselves to be lawyers (which, for those who don't know, we have to do on an ongoing basis), we don't sit around and study contracts or evidence outlines, as we did for the Bar exam.  Our practice and study look very different a couple of decades into our careers, and there are reasons for that. 

On another note, I would love to go back and rewatch all of those documentaries.  Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen.  But how cool that a couple of you are doing that.

[gzarruk]

Bosk, I agree with what you say, for the most part, but I'd say the case here is a bit different. Playing an instrument is also a very physical activity. Let's compare this to an athlete, for example: that person needs to work regularly, if not daily, but not to get better, just to mantain their current skill level/hability. If they want to get past that, that's where they have to push it. Playing an instrument is no different, it DOES take time and effort to mantain your current progress, because if you don't "practice" it, you lose it. Anyone who plays an instrument past the beginner stage knows this.

I'll use myself as another example, I've been a bass player for about 12 years now. While it's true that at first my practice routines looked very differently than now, as I'm not a professional musician or doing much gigs anymore and have a lot other things to do/worry about than sitting and playing, when I DO get to play, my self imposed task is to, at last, get to the "peak" I already got before, so that I don't lose it.
To take this even further, I was away in Mexico when the pandemic hit and got stuck there for more than 3 months, I'll finally be able to get home next week. I haven't touched a bass in more than 4 months, and when I get back, it's going to be very hard just to get to the point where I was before my travels.

About MP, I don't think anyone here is saying he doesn't sit and practice anymore, but rather that he doesn't raise the bar at all. Yes, he's VERY involved in the writing/recording process of whatever album he puts out, but when it comes to his drumming, it seems that he doesn't want to improve anymore, he just mantains the same level/skill set he's had since the Awake/FII era. And, as I said, that does take time and effort, but I'd say it's safe to assume he isn't improving his craft anymore. Whether that's good or bad, it depends really, but at least I would expect a professional musician in the prog rock/metal world, who's considered to be a virtuoso player and one of the best, to get serious about constantly improving, and that's possible (See: Mangini).

[Stadler]

Yeah, but you're assuming that YOUR standard of "raising the bar" applies to everyone.  If he's refining his... arranging skills, his writing skills, his reading skills, his bass-playing skills, his guitar skills... why doesn't that matter?   I've been a lawyer for almost 25 years.   There are things that it's just NOT worth at this point putting effort into, because the incremental growth is not worth the time, energy, money, and emotional bandwidth to improve.  BUT, there are things I can improve in a more efficient way.  And even in the drum field, he can improve in ways that aren't obvious to us, or that aren't purely physical/athletic endeavors.  I know for me (a guitar player) I like to be better today than I was yesterday, but almost none of that at this point involves finger exercises to out-Yngwie Yngwie.  I do want to learn how to communicate with people through my guitar, and maybe that's it.  Maybe for a guy that came out of Berkeley, and has done a fair amount of widdly widdly in his career, the trick is to assimilate better with the musicians around him.  You point out Mangini as if that's the standard; harsh I realize (and don't take me literally) but if that's "improving on your craft", I'd rather Mike P. stay exactly where he is.  Listening to Mike - even now - can still give me chills.  I cannot name one Portnoy track where I'm thinking "goddamn, was that out of place, or WHAT?".   It is the exact opposite with Mangini.  Not one track that gives me chills, and more than one where I'm like "my god, man, are you listening to the same song I am?"

There is also age; he and I are the same age (he's six months older than I am).  It takes me a LOT longer to learn some things than it did when I was 24, but a lot SHORTER to learn other things. 

[TAC]

Yeah, but you're assuming that YOUR standard of "raising the bar" applies to everyone.  If he's refining his... arranging skills, his writing skills, his reading skills, his bass-playing skills, his guitar skills... why doesn't that matter?   I've been a lawyer for almost 25 years.   There are things that it's just NOT worth at this point putting effort into, because the incremental growth is not worth the time, energy, money, and emotional bandwidth to improve.  BUT, there are things I can improve in a more efficient way.  And even in the drum field, he can improve in ways that aren't obvious to us, or that aren't purely physical/athletic endeavors.  I know for me (a guitar player) I like to be better today than I was yesterday, but almost none of that at this point involves finger exercises to out-Yngwie Yngwie.  I do want to learn how to communicate with people through my guitar, and maybe that's it.  Maybe for a guy that came out of Berkeley, and has done a fair amount of widdly widdly in his career, the trick is to assimilate better with the musicians around him.  You point out Mangini as if that's the standard; harsh I realize (and don't take me literally) but if that's "improving on your craft", I'd rather Mike P. stay exactly where he is.  Listening to Mike - even now - can still give me chills.  I cannot name one Portnoy track where I'm thinking "goddamn, was that out of place, or WHAT?".   It is the exact opposite with Mangini.  Not one track that gives me chills, and more than one where I'm like "my god, man, are you listening to the same song I am?"

I like this post and the bolded part is an interesting thought.


I feel like MP deserves a break from all of this.

[Architeuthis]

As many bands and projects MP has been involved with, I would think that all the live gigs and studio time IS his practice.  He always shows up to a recording session prepared and plays the drums more than enough to stay polished. 

[KevShmev]

I have come around this a little bit, to where I now probably agree with Stadler's take.  Portnoy said recently (cannot remember where) that he can't play as fast as he used to, so rather than trying to maintain the fury and speed of his younger days, he is accepting that Father Time is beating him a little in that regard.  And he still plays a lot of great stuff. Heck, two of my favorite drums fills of his now (not overly difficult ones either, relatively) are from Third Degree, the most recent Flying Colors album, so while his playing might not be evolving in the technical sense, it's still plenty of fun.

[TAC]

Plus I think it's unfair to hold him to the same standard to Mangini, because the fact is, it's Mangini that's the exception to the rule, not MP.

[Adami]

Plus I think it's unfair to hold him to the same standard to Mangini, because the fact is, it's Mangini that's the exception to the rule, not MP.

Indeed. I think MP gets held to a strange standard, but that might be due to how highly regarded he is in general.

MM is an exception to that rule and makes it known. Neil Peart was also an exception. It's cool that people hold MP up to people like NP and MM but he's just not that kind of drummer. I can't think of other drummers who get crap for not progressing and most drummers outside of the more extremely technical fields basically just do their thing.

[Indiscipline]

I've listened to every DT, Transatlantic and Neal Morse album ad nauseam, and I've never got even close to thinking: "this is a drummer who's not practicing enough or has a stale vocabulary".

Again, I'm not on social media, so I have to deal with what I experience vs what I'm told.

[Iverson] Practice? [/Iverson]

I am a touring artist (musical theatre performer and director) with an average of 100-120 shows and 5 different productions per year, a family, a life, a tribute band and a DTF account. Well, the last time I had the literal time to practice in the traditional sense was my last day as young unemployed artist almost 20 years ago. I'm pretty sure Mike has way more on his hands and way less time than me. You get better and learn a lot of things while you work, and the mere fact you're using your instrument on a regular (and often harrowing) basis keeps it in shape. When (rarely, bar pandemics) you have time, you usually either rest, refocus, or work on performance losses due to age and consumption.

I am not Portnoy apologist - because I basically don't really know anything about the man except for his music - but I feel it's quite unfair to ask such an insanely prolific and talented musician as him to "get better", only because he's not the absolute best.

Do we hold ourselves to the same standard in our professions or endevours? 

[gmillerdrake]

I've listened to every DT, Transatlantic and Neal Morse album ad nauseam, and I've never got even close to thinking: "this is a drummer who's not practicing enough or has a stale vocabulary".

You have to listen harder then     He recycles several of his 'classic' fills on a couple songs every album he releases....and there are times (especially in SC and BC&SL) when you can just hear him mailing it in so to speak.

Indeed. I think MP gets held to a strange standard, but that might be due to how highly regarded he is in general. 

This is why I'm critical of him. when you hear the incredible output he had for the first half of his career......the dude is just awesome. But then there was a point (SC era) when (in my ear) he just got for the lack of a better term....lazy in his writing. Very predictable and rehashing of old themes.

Dude is unreal to watch live....an incredible showman and hall of fame drummer. That cannot be debated....it's fact. But, it's fairly obvious he's resting on his laurels and career and that's fine...he's earned it. But there will be criticism with that decision....especially when his peers (MM) continually try to and do improve and stay fresh.

[Indiscipline]

I've listened to every DT, Transatlantic and Neal Morse album ad nauseam, and I've never got even close to thinking: "this is a drummer who's not practicing enough or has a stale vocabulary".

You have to listen harder then     He recycles several of his 'classic' fills on a couple songs every album he releases....and there are times (especially in SC and BC&SL) when you can just hear him mailing it in so to speak.

 

Oh, I'm aware of the recycling, and it goes beyond fills: there are already-heard patterns scattered everywhere. That can't amount to "stale vocabulary" though, as long as I keep hearing new stuff in every album, and I do. Why should I overlook that and focus on something that every musician with a comparably huge quantity of recorded material (and frighteningly high density of playing therein) does?

Again, I'm not anyone's blind advocate. It's the standard that seems impossibly harsh.

Mangini (who I love) may very well be one of a kind, he can't be the standard. What if my wife decided John Holmes was the standard for virility? 

[TAC]

I have said on more than one occasion:

MP inspired me to pick up my drum sticks.

MM inspired me to put them back down.

[Dedalus]

The point is: recycling becomes much more evident when you release seven records a year.

In recent years he has saturated us with a multitude of releases. Quantity became something important to him. OK no problems. But I got to a point where I don't even listen to all the records anymore. BPMD, new SoA, Metal Allegiance? No thank you. It would have been inconceivable 15 years ago that MP was on a record and I wasn't going to listen to it.

Not everyone is bothered by this, cool. And I understand that MP will always be defended. But it is valid criticism.

MP does not need to practice more or change his style, as far as I am concerned. But that doesn't mean I'm going to clap for anything he does.

[Indiscipline]

MP does not need to practice more or change his style, as far as I am concerned. But that doesn't mean I'm going to clap for anything he does.

^ I completely agree with this.

I didn't clap at (or buy) anything he did 20 years ago, I still consider him a wonderful drummer now.

[gzarruk]

To say something a bit more positive, I must confess I've been enjoying SOA a bit more now than before. There's still some songs I don't think I'll ever go back to (Coming Home, Asphyxiation, Divine Addiction, Wither to Black, maybe a couple more) but the better ones I've been enjoying more the past weeks.

[Dedalus]

To say something a bit more positive, I must confess I've been enjoying SOA a bit more now than before. There's still some songs I don't think I'll ever go back to (Coming Home, Asphyxiation, Divine Addiction, Wither to Black, maybe a couple more) but the better ones I've been enjoying more the past weeks.

SoA I pretend it never existed. 

To say something more positive too. I really love Flying Colors. I don't think FC3 surpassed the first one, but it's a very good record and I will always be willing to listen to the band.

EDIT: I forgot to write the first sentence in English. 

[Lax]

I have said on more than one occasion:
MP inspired me to pick up my drum sticks.
MM inspired me to put them back down.

I get what you mean!

I still wish I heard MM play dream theater stuff on MP's drumkit, to prove me right and that 50% of the "issue" is the drumkit

[Kyo]

A lack of practicing becomes a lot more of a problem when you're not just playing your own stuff which you can just shape to your comfort level, but playing challenging covers. Back in 2012, Mike played Apocalypse 1470 B.C. from Derek's solo debut Planet X. First off: It was a fun performance and the audience was into it. But the original version has some really tricky drum parts, with complex double bass and snare patterns while the second hand keeps a basic pulse going in an unintuitive combination, requiring a significant level of limb independence and preparation. Rather than rise to the challenge and figure out Virgil's stuff - and this was still 1999 level Virgil, not today's "I don't even know what's going on" level Virgil! - Mike simplified the drum parts and played the song in a way that was more comfortable to him. That to me was a very clear example of a lowered level of aspiration. It certainly got the job done. But it also seemed like cheating and it certainly didn't feel like an "OMG, this is one of the best drummers in the world at the top of his game" level performance.

Here's Virgil's part shown in detail - slow at first, at its original speed later:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155081884222442

And here's Mike version, the part in question starting at 1:26:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt6WSSlyu3s

[Dream Team]

I don’t think Petrucci has been doing anything revolutionary lately either. Seems weird to pick on Portnoy about it.

[MoraWintersoul]

Maybe if JP had recorded 40 albums (I don't know how many new non-live albums MP put out, this is the number he put out in that interview which I assume includes live albums as well) in the past 10 years, we would be picking on him too because not repeating yourself in that case is next to impossible. MP kinda put himself in a tough spot here.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I did ask MP about reinventing his style like Neil Peart did in the 90's when i interviewed him last December. He said he just didn't have the time because of so many bands and album releases every year. And that's fair. Nowadays, in order to survive in the music business you have to keep putting out albums and touring relentlessly. When Neil did that he was on a whole new level of revenue, and could afford time off to do what he did with Freddie Gruber.

[bosk1]

Personally, I think that's more than fair.  And it isn't necessarily "lazy" or "not caring enough about one's craft" to not have the desire to reinvent oneself.  The vast majority of people, even people who are recognized as being at the top of their game in what they do, never do that.  One just does not have to reinvent themselves to be considered incredible at what they do. 

[Adami]

Personally, I think that's more than fair.  And it isn't necessarily "lazy" or "not caring enough about one's craft" to not have the desire to reinvent oneself.  The vast majority of people, even people who are recognized as being at the top of their game in what they do, never do that.  One just does not have to reinvent themselves to be considered incredible at what they do.

Indeed. I go back to why we hold MP specifically up to this standard. I don't see anyone complaining about JMX not changing his style or upping his game in a long time, or LaBrie, or Petrucci or even Ruddess. The only person we can point to is MM and I don't even see any major changes in what he does either. I think a lot of people just assume because he's so INTO the technical stuff that he's advancing his style rather than just maintaining. But for some reason only MP gets ripped apart for it.

[Indiscipline]

I gotta be honest, I can' help thinking the unfair standard MP is held to is - for a quite considerable amount - a function of 20 years of extreme love and worship ended with a heartbreak in 2010 (and occasionally less than pretty aftermath).

Something along the lines of ... you lethally disappointed me, now I'm uncosciously raising the bar for you so high that whatever you do, you will stay a disappointment forever in my eyes.

[The Letter M]

I gotta be honest, I can' help thinking the unfair standard MP is held to is - for a quite considerable amount - a function of 20 years of extreme love and worship ended with a heartbreak in 2010 (and occasionally less than pretty aftermath).

Something along the lines of ... you lethally disappointed me, now I'm uncosciously raising the bar for you so high that whatever you do, you will stay a disappointment forever in my eyes.

Sadly, that sounds more like an issue and problem with/for the "fans" than it does for MP. If those "fans" are the ones getting upset for something Mike isn't even doing, then it's really on them to deal with how they feel, and really shouldn't be taking it out on Mike because of it. It sucks that he gets all of their hate for something he can't fix or deal with, but every fanbase has those kinds of followers.

-Marc.

[Madman Shepherd]

Indeed. I go back to why we hold MP specifically up to this standard. I don't see anyone complaining about JMX not changing his style or upping his game in a long time, or LaBrie, or Petrucci or even Ruddess.

I've heard a lot of people talk about being disappointed JMX doesn't do more with his bass but he is also happy to take a backseat and doesn't put himself out there as much so it doesn't come up as much.

With JLB, the voice is different from any other instrument so it's not a fair comparison although he got significant praise for upping his game post-2002.

Petrucci changes things up but has more natural opportunity to, ya know, with all the different frets and strings.

All I can speak to with JR is that I praise him when he holds back as opposed to pushing the envelope.

[bosk1]

And with singers, I think it is a different issue.  I think it is far more comment and, sometimes, more necessary for singers to somewhat reinvent themselves if they have longevity in their careers--at least, singers in some genres that sing very technical or difficult material, or who push the envelope in some manner.  Age more noticeably takes a toll on singers, so they sometimes need to adapt and find new (or better) ways to sing in order to maintain a high level of performance. 

[cramx3]

I think MP being in many bands plays a role on people asking him to change it up, because you hear his style across so many different bands.  I don't really have an issue with it, I kind of like it actually.  Like you just know who's behind the kit from listening because he has his own style.

[gmillerdrake]

Indeed. I go back to why we hold MP specifically up to this standard. I don't see anyone complaining about JMX not changing his style or upping his game in a long time, or LaBrie, or Petrucci or even Ruddess. The only person we can point to is MM and I don't even see any major changes in what he does either. I think a lot of people just assume because he's so INTO the technical stuff that he's advancing his style rather than just maintaining. But for some reason only MP gets ripped apart for it.

Maintaining it isn't a bad thing. That's the point of JM, JR, MM and JP all practicing non stop the way they do. They give near spot on performances are are able to 'maintain' their talent level. Most of the time note for note. MP does not. He's still incredibly talented and top class but even back in his last few DT years he took a lot of holidays on his drum parts compared to the studio versions. Now, I get that the live experience is one thing.....and MP is an incredible entertainer....but, if there is a section of double bass or interesting fills or what not that sounds awesome then when played live it's just kind of ho hummed through....which he did a lot of.....it's just lazy. Go listen to his 50th birthday songs with Haken. The Scenes stuff he's playing he takes holiday after holiday. Still sounds good....but, for a drummer of his stature and lore I'd expect spot on playing. There is an expectation there when your considered one of the worlds best drummers to 'prove' and live up to it. I know he's at the point in his career where he can bask in his accomplishments but for me....when your peers who are equally as great are still grinding away to maintain and improve....there shouldn't be surprise when criticism follows when you aren't.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Indeed. I go back to why we hold MP specifically up to this standard. I don't see anyone complaining about JMX not changing his style or upping his game in a long time, or LaBrie, or Petrucci or even Ruddess. The only person we can point to is MM and I don't even see any major changes in what he does either. I think a lot of people just assume because he's so INTO the technical stuff that he's advancing his style rather than just maintaining. But for some reason only MP gets ripped apart for it.

Maintaining it isn't a bad thing. That's the point of JM, JR, MM and JP all practicing non stop the way they do. They give near spot on performances are are able to 'maintain' their talent level. Most of the time note for note. MP does not. He's still incredibly talented and top class but even back in his last few DT years he took a lot of holidays on his drum parts compared to the studio versions. Now, I get that the live experience is one thing.....and MP is an incredible entertainer....but, if there is a section of double bass or interesting fills or what not that sounds awesome then when played live it's just kind of ho hummed through....which he did a lot of.....it's just lazy. Go listen to his 50th birthday songs with Haken. The Scenes stuff he's playing he takes holiday after holiday. Still sounds good....but, for a drummer of his stature and lore I'd expect spot on playing. There is an expectation there when your considered one of the worlds best drummers to 'prove' and live up to it. I know he's at the point in his career where he can bask in his accomplishments but for me....when your peers who are equally as great are still grinding away to maintain and improve....there shouldn't be surprise when criticism follows when you aren't.

He also does the majority of backing vocals for all of the different bands that he's in. I can say from experience that one of the most difficult things to do is play and sing at the same time. Usually one of the two has to be simplified and any musician who has played live music long enough can tell you that the vocals being correct are more important than the instrumentation, so they simplify what they're playing to focus on what they're singing. James Hetfield does it too and he's often praised as the greatest rhythm guitarist of all time as well as being the only guy in Metallica who still nails his parts every night. Having seen Mike Portnoy live three times now, with two of those shows featuring Dream Theater music, I can say that when he wasn't singing, he played almost exactly to the record, or if he did change something, usually a fill, it was still technical and was just changed for the sake of variety. However when it came time to sing, his parts got simpler. This isn't a coincidence. I mean the Twelve Step Suite shows closed with Finally Free and he nailed the ending when I saw the NYC show, so I know it's not deteriorating skills or laziness on his end. To my eyes and ears, it's just a seasoned professional musician making a conscious decision to slightly simplify his playing while he's singing.

[Stadler]

I'm sort of with the Count on this (I was at that same show, so...) and when I watch the vids of The Neal Morse Band (both the official stuff and the snippets from the docs) as well as seeing them live, they are LOCKED IN.   I think that it's fair if someone considers that more important than the note-for-note of the record.   I know when I saw the Similitude show, I didn't have each drum part memorized (still don't), but there were a couple moments in that show when he and Randy and Neal in particular were as tight as a drum, and honestly, at that point, I didn't care about whether he was note-perfect, because he was PRESENT, he wasn't phoning it in, he was reading his bandmates (or they were reading him) and it was synched up.  I got goose bumps on a couple of those moments.  THAT'S why he's on my drumming Mt. Rushmore, not because he can do 78 paradiddles per second with autonomous 32nd notes on the left toe and synchpated 9/8 time on his ball sack.

(Trying to lighten the mood with some humor, not be condescendingly dismissive.)

[gmillerdrake]

Pretty sure I've stated time and time again that MP's a truly talented showman.....incredible to watch live....and one of the best drummers alive today. I'm not disputing his shows and he aren't fun to watch and attend. Any and every chance I get to see him live I go see him live.

You may recall those live shows as him nailing his parts....that's fine. But there are countless youtube videos of those shows where it's pretty easily heard that he's altered the parts from their original beats/fills etc. Still sounds fine.....good show(s).....that's not what my point is.

My point is he's comfortable with doing that....ok. But, he's going to face criticism in the wake of that choice when his peers are still practicing and improving and able to maintain themselves 'better'. That's all.

The (2) TNMB concerts I've seen live were incredible! MP was incredible....I'm not arguing he can't perform. It's just we're watching a late career Nolan Ryan striking guys out with sliders in the dirt rather than early career Nolan Ryan who just pumped fastballs by you without a care in the world. Still the same incredible pitcher.....just different approaches.

[Max Kuehnau]

I have said on more than one occasion:

MP inspired me to pick up my drum sticks.

MM inspired me to put them back down.

that's sad. I personally find MM to be very inspiring, (but part of the reason for that is that I got to hear MM play on Fire Garden at age 6), Porty not so much. To each their own though.

[Adami]

Pretty sure I've stated time and time again that MP's a truly talented showman.....incredible to watch live....and one of the best drummers alive today. I'm not disputing his shows and he aren't fun to watch and attend. Any and every chance I get to see him live I go see him live.

You may recall those live shows as him nailing his parts....that's fine. But there are countless youtube videos of those shows where it's pretty easily heard that he's altered the parts from their original beats/fills etc. Still sounds fine.....good show(s).....that's not what my point is.

My point is he's comfortable with doing that....ok. But, he's going to face criticism in the wake of that choice when his peers are still practicing and improving and able to maintain themselves 'better'. That's all.

The (2) TNMB concerts I've seen live were incredible! MP was incredible....I'm not arguing he can't perform. It's just we're watching a late career Nolan Ryan striking guys out with sliders in the dirt rather than early career Nolan Ryan who just pumped fastballs by you without a care in the world. Still the same incredible pitcher.....just different approaches.

I totally get that. And some of it might be a difference in values.

DT might be a band that very much values playing as close to the record as humanly possible. While MP might be someone who values playing the spirit of the record and changing things up. I get the feeling from MP that playing identical to the record isn't terribly important to him.