The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)

[Mladen]

I love reminiscing about people who didn't know that SDV was a part of the set list.

Back in January 2014, a buddy of mine sitting next to me didn't check the set list the way I did. He realized at that point of the show that they are playing some Awake songs in order, and once Lifting shadows was done, he was like: "I know Scarred is coming up, but what will they play after it? Is what I think is going to happen really finally going to happen?" I was like "I don't know, we'll see." 

[Lethean]

Since he was so opposed to playing it, I agree that they just wouldn't have. Unless as you mentioned, Kevin Moore agreed to make an appearance, which probably also wouldn't have it won't happen. But if for some reason he simply changed his mind about the song, and there was no Kevin Moore option, that I really don't think he would have played it at just one show. He knew how many people would have wanted to see it.

[Stadler]

I would imagine that it is clear that the band doesn't think certain things are necessary, which is why they aren't being done anymore.  Rotating set lists is a good example, as they have made it clear that a mostly static set list is their current preference lately, so they are going that route. As for special sets, no, they don't bust one random special set in the middle of a tour, but have smartly chucked the cover sets, and they have done a great job overall with the set lists in the Mangini era, from finally playing Space Dye Vest every night for an entire tour (as opposed to just one night, which you know would have been the case had it been played when Portnoy was in the band), to playing Don't Look Past Me (a big time obscure demo) at a dozen shows or so, to doing various anniversary sets for entire tours (all of Images and Words, all of Scenes, doing a chronological set featuring a song from every album), etc. I could go on and on, but I know, I know, every time it is pointed out the many great things the band has done this decade, a Portnoy fan always points to something they haven't.  "Great, they have done a-x, but what about y and z??"

Not debating the merits even a little bit.  Most of it is subjective anyway; it's totally dependent on whether you prefer "a-x" or "y and z".  Remember, I'm the guy that says the band can do what they want.  But part of this discussion is crucifying Mike for saying one thing and doing another, and I'm merely pointing out that the band has done the same.  Nothing more nothing less.   If they didn't want to do those things, don't say "we're going to".   Fair is fair.   

 

This decade has just been a lot more fun as a fan than it was the last half decade with Portnoy.  Remember that outtake video we got with JLB and Petrucci?  We never would have gotten that in the 00's, because Portnoy had to dominate nearly every interview or promo with his overbearing personality, which got more and more grating over time.  I think most of us would agree that Dream Theater is either in the home stretch, or fast approaching it, and it's nice to see the band happy and the personalities of all of the members being allowed to shine and everyone just enjoying what they are doing now without any drama or any one member feeling like he has to always be the face of the band or the center of attention.

To you, and many others, but not everyone, and that's okay. It'd be nice to be able to have the opinion that the Portnoy years were more fun - even with the drama - without being accused of being an "#MPWarrior".   FOR ME, having recently gone back and watched the DVDs and special features from the '95 to about '05 timeframe, it was just a magical period, and nothing from 2011 to now has met that "demand" for me.  DT is great - still a "must-buy", not necessarily a "must-see" - but they are now one of 10 or so bands that are all on the same tier.  I don't expect anyone to share this opinion, but only to respect my right to have it without it being made into something it's not.  Ultimately I recognize his behavior, I'm just (apparently) willing to consider alternate motivations or theories as to their meaning and intent.   

[Lethean]

Stadler - you have every right to prefer the MP era and think it was more exciting.   

I will argue about the cool website (which I assume you mean forum) part of it being a negative against DT.  Yes, MP was super active on his forum and it was really cool.  The other members of DT weren't, and never became active here to make up for it.  However - they're on social media.  JM is still JM, JLB doesn't have a huge presence, but JP, JR, and MM are very active.  If you're not following their social media, I can see how you'd think they're all totally hands off, but they're not.  And MP is doing the same these days ever since shutting down the forum.

Also, as far as their live show, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Astonishing the only time you've seen them with MM?  You had some great things to say about that show and it was for an album you don't even really like.  If you saw them outside of that, I can't imagine it not being a much better experience for you.  Maybe to you never as great as when MP was there, but I doubt it would be such a huge difference post and pre split.

[Stadler]

Stadler - you have every right to prefer the MP era and think it was more exciting.   

I will argue about the cool website (which I assume you mean forum) part of it being a negative against DT.  Yes, MP was super active on his forum and it was really cool.  The other members of DT weren't, and never became active here to make up for it.  However - they're on social media.  JM is still JM, JLB doesn't have a huge presence, but JP, JR, and MM are very active.  If you're not following their social media, I can see how you'd think they're all totally hands off, but they're not.  And MP is doing the same these days ever since shutting down the forum.

Also, as far as their live show, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Astonishing the only time you've seen them with MM?  You had some great things to say about that show and it was for an album you don't even really like.  If you saw them outside of that, I can't imagine it not being a much better experience for you.  Maybe to you never as great as when MP was there, but I doubt it would be such a huge difference post and pre split.

I don't know about the first one; part of the charm of Mike then (and actually, although to a lesser extent, Mike now) is that I can empathize with him.  I'm not OCD... except, I have several bands where I have every single song they've officially released.  I dig the "fanboy" side of Mike and it was a big part of my attraction to the band.  I LIKED that he recognized that in his fans. I LIKED that they did the fan club stuff, but if you missed the boat there were ways of getting the material.  I LIKED that he knew where each song was recorded and which versions were which; when I put a live song on my iPod I try very hard to locate the venue and year when I do it. None of that billshot where you have to by a nine album vinyl set to get that one version of song x.   I LIKED that when he got a chance to meet his idol, McCartney, he asked about Let It Be.  I'm down with that.  My (limited) experience with the other members is a lot less "intimate".  I'm not interested in iPad apps, or "Let's raaawwwwwkkkkkk!" type posts.   

The last point is a fair one though.  I suppose I should give the band a non-The Astonishing shot.  It was a great show that I saw, but mostly because of the circumstances around it.  I met about five people from here (and from Mike's site) and formed at least one lasting friendship from it.  But the show itself?  Eh.  The highlight was the end of the first set and that's not a ringing endorsement.

[Madman Shepherd]

  FOR ME, having recently gone back and watched the DVDs and special features from the '95 to about '05 timeframe, it was just a magical period, and nothing from 2011 to now has met that "demand" for me. 

I can kind of agree but also I think most of Mike's output since then has gone the same way. Granted, I don't buy most his stuff but even his drum cams he started phoning in. I'm not a drummer but I bought those just for the bonus features like commentaries. Now he just shits them out with two different audio options. The Sons of Apollo DVD also kind of seemed like they were shit out. A quick behind the scenes thing and then a promotional clip from some talk show.

Even the official bootlegs towards the end seemed uninspired, especially the cover series. I thought it was cool to cover Metallica even though I was never a fan and Iron Maiden that I was lukewarm on because I loved hearing about how they influenced them. I thought it was a bit cheesy to finally get the keyboardist they've always wanted and to relegate him to a few guitar synth solos but whatever. Then the Deep Purple cover album was....weird. At least they utilized Jordan a bit more but to do a live cover of a live album. Weird. Roger Glover, who mixed it even said as much. The next release wasn't even a full cover album but there was still a few cool selections

I also remember Mike telling fans if they don't like cover sets to not go to the second night of a two night stand (in a pretty shitty way actually). Then a bunch of fans went to the second night in south america (I think) and they got SFAM in its entirety. He then got pissy at the fans that were like, "but you said" and his response was, "hey, I told you we'd play a classic album."

No doubt he burned himself but we started getting less special stuff even while he was in the band and that downward trend has continued since he's been out, his project included. In fact, I would actually say post-Mike's DT's stuff is better than Mike's post-DT stuff in regards to bonus content.

[Lethean]

Stadler - you have every right to prefer the MP era and think it was more exciting.   

I will argue about the cool website (which I assume you mean forum) part of it being a negative against DT.  Yes, MP was super active on his forum and it was really cool.  The other members of DT weren't, and never became active here to make up for it.  However - they're on social media.  JM is still JM, JLB doesn't have a huge presence, but JP, JR, and MM are very active.  If you're not following their social media, I can see how you'd think they're all totally hands off, but they're not.  And MP is doing the same these days ever since shutting down the forum.

Also, as far as their live show, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Astonishing the only time you've seen them with MM?  You had some great things to say about that show and it was for an album you don't even really like.  If you saw them outside of that, I can't imagine it not being a much better experience for you.  Maybe to you never as great as when MP was there, but I doubt it would be such a huge difference post and pre split.

I don't know about the first one; part of the charm of Mike then (and actually, although to a lesser extent, Mike now) is that I can empathize with him.  I'm not OCD... except, I have several bands where I have every single song they've officially released.  I dig the "fanboy" side of Mike and it was a big part of my attraction to the band.  I LIKED that he recognized that in his fans. I LIKED that they did the fan club stuff, but if you missed the boat there were ways of getting the material.  I LIKED that he knew where each song was recorded and which versions were which; when I put a live song on my iPod I try very hard to locate the venue and year when I do it. None of that billshot where you have to by a nine album vinyl set to get that one version of song x.   I LIKED that when he got a chance to meet his idol, McCartney, he asked about Let It Be.  I'm down with that.  My (limited) experience with the other members is a lot less "intimate".  I'm not interested in iPad apps, or "Let's raaawwwwwkkkkkk!" type posts.   

Well, that's a personal quirk of Mike's and I agree with you - it was cool and I liked a lot of that about him too.  But is that really so big as to make you like the band less now that he's not there? The other band members can't make themselves be Mike's version of "OCD" and they shouldn't.  But there's a lot more than just "let's rawk" posts.  Jordan posts a lot of himself playing live - yes, sometimes using an iPad app, but at lot of times on the piano.  I don't watch every time, but but I when I do it's cool and imo very intimate - to just record yourself playing whatever and let people watch it live.  Maybe it's not him talking about his emotions, but I get the feeling that his expresses those through music anyway.  (Also, you'll get to see a cool cat pic every so often. )  JP posts a lot of pictures - at one of the venues in Canada, you can see a huge Rush starman which is backstage and fans wouldn't otherwise have known, and he makes a comment about the home of his heroes.  He recently posted a very nice thank to everyone who supported them this tour - including braving the weather which resonated with me having to drive through snow for that last show (both ways, probably up hill too!).  Probably none of it would fill the void of how MP was on the forum, but I think you'd find stuff there to be engaged with - on some level at least.

The last point is a fair one though.  I suppose I should give the band a non-The Astonishing shot.  It was a great show that I saw, but mostly because of the circumstances around it.  I met about five people from here (and from Mike's site) and formed at least one lasting friendship from it.  But the show itself?  Eh.  The highlight was the end of the first set and that's not a ringing endorsement.

Well, again, you don't like the album.  Some people came away with a new appreciation for it after seeing it live, sounds like that didn't happen for you, but I remember you talking about how much you enjoyed JLB and I think maybe it was JP.  You probably would have like any of the other shows better.

[gzarruk]

  FOR ME, having recently gone back and watched the DVDs and special features from the '95 to about '05 timeframe, it was just a magical period, and nothing from 2011 to now has met that "demand" for me. 

I can kind of agree but also I think most of Mike's output since then has gone the same way. Granted, I don't buy most his stuff but even his drum cams he started phoning in. I'm not a drummer but I bought those just for the bonus features like commentaries. Now he just shits them out with two different audio options. The Sons of Apollo DVD also kind of seemed like they were shit out. A quick behind the scenes thing and then a promotional clip from some talk show.

Even the official bootlegs towards the end seemed uninspired, especially the cover series. I thought it was cool to cover Metallica even though I was never a fan and Iron Maiden that I was lukewarm on because I loved hearing about how they influenced them. I thought it was a bit cheesy to finally get the keyboardist they've always wanted and to relegate him to a few guitar synth solos but whatever. Then the Deep Purple cover album was....weird. At least they utilized Jordan a bit more but to do a live cover of a live album. Weird. Roger Glover, who mixed it even said as much. The next release wasn't even a full cover album but there was still a few cool selections

I also remember Mike telling fans if they don't like cover sets to not go to the second night of a two night stand (in a pretty shitty way actually). Then a bunch of fans went to the second night in south america (I think) and they got SFAM in its entirety. He then got pissy at the fans that were like, "but you said" and his response was, "hey, I told you we'd play a classic album."

No doubt he burned himself but we started getting less special stuff even while he was in the band and that downward trend has continued since he's been out, his project included. In fact, I would actually say post-Mike's DT's stuff is better than Mike's post-DT stuff in regards to bonus content.

Also rotating setlists, that absolutely no post-DT MP band has ever had, but I guess the complaints only apply to DT.

[MirrorMask]

Well, it's not that he's teaming up with bad or unexperienced musicians, but being in a band like DT kinda helps if you want to have rotating setlists. The norm is preparing a show and having a fixed setlist and maybe change a song here and there, DT were the exception and not the rule. For what we know he might have even proposed that and got as a reply "What? forget it man, if you want someone to rehearse 30 songs before a tour ask John Petrucci, he's capable of that".

[DTA]

  FOR ME, having recently gone back and watched the DVDs and special features from the '95 to about '05 timeframe, it was just a magical period, and nothing from 2011 to now has met that "demand" for me. 

I can kind of agree but also I think most of Mike's output since then has gone the same way. Granted, I don't buy most his stuff but even his drum cams he started phoning in. I'm not a drummer but I bought those just for the bonus features like commentaries. Now he just shits them out with two different audio options. The Sons of Apollo DVD also kind of seemed like they were shit out. A quick behind the scenes thing and then a promotional clip from some talk show.

Even the official bootlegs towards the end seemed uninspired, especially the cover series. I thought it was cool to cover Metallica even though I was never a fan and Iron Maiden that I was lukewarm on because I loved hearing about how they influenced them. I thought it was a bit cheesy to finally get the keyboardist they've always wanted and to relegate him to a few guitar synth solos but whatever. Then the Deep Purple cover album was....weird. At least they utilized Jordan a bit more but to do a live cover of a live album. Weird. Roger Glover, who mixed it even said as much. The next release wasn't even a full cover album but there was still a few cool selections

I also remember Mike telling fans if they don't like cover sets to not go to the second night of a two night stand (in a pretty shitty way actually). Then a bunch of fans went to the second night in south america (I think) and they got SFAM in its entirety. He then got pissy at the fans that were like, "but you said" and his response was, "hey, I told you we'd play a classic album."

No doubt he burned himself but we started getting less special stuff even while he was in the band and that downward trend has continued since he's been out, his project included. In fact, I would actually say post-Mike's DT's stuff is better than Mike's post-DT stuff in regards to bonus content.

Also rotating setlists, that absolutely no post-DT MP band has ever had, but I guess the complaints only apply to DT.

The lack of rotating setlist complaint boggles my mind. It only benefits fans who obsessively check setlists after each show and want to see a bunch of different songs and the 5 fans who may see multiple shows (which if they're doing the same set, you don't have to spend the extra money on more than one show). Plus they change it up from tour-to-tour significantly enough. I'd often be pissed that Des Moines or wherever got a song I wanted and my city ended up with the song I didn't want.

[Lethean]

But why on earth would you be pissed off about that?  If you're only going to go to one show, then why does it matter if another show has different songs?  Because if you can't see those songs, no one can?  Maybe if they weren't rotating the setlist, they would have played the song you wanted, but maybe they would have played the other one and no one would have heard the song you wanted.

I'm not dissing DT for not doing it, I'm not mad at them, I don't threaten to stop seeing them live because of it.  But I certainly do miss it.  And while I have no idea how many fans saw multiple shows, I promise it was way more than five.

[Lethean]

I also remember Mike telling fans if they don't like cover sets to not go to the second night of a two night stand (in a pretty shitty way actually). Then a bunch of fans went to the second night in south america (I think) and they got SFAM in its entirety. He then got pissy at the fans that were like, "but you said" and his response was, "hey, I told you we'd play a classic album."

Yikes.  I didn't know about that.  I hope some of those fans are getting to see Scenes next month.

[TAC]

The lack of rotating setlist complaint boggles my mind. It only benefits fans who obsessively check setlists after each show and want to see a bunch of different songs and the 5 fans who may see multiple shows (which if they're doing the same set, you don't have to spend the extra money on more than one show). Plus they change it up from tour-to-tour significantly enough. I'd often be pissed that Des Moines or wherever got a song I wanted and my city ended up with the song I didn't want.

So, I will agree with you that the setlists from tour to tour have varied a ton, and they've done a great job with that.

Regarding the MP Era rotating setlists....

I think the rotating setlists were great. It kept the fan engaged beyond your local show. I would check online about what they played the night before. It was like checking a box score of your baseball team. Does that make me obsessive? Puleeze, man.

It is true that not all setlists were created equal, but I, for one, enjoyed collecting boots from the various shows from the tour. When I go on a DT binge, it rarely includes studio albums.

Nowadays, before and after my show, I'm basically checked out on the rest of the tour.

[Stadler]

Well, that's a personal quirk of Mike's and I agree with you - it was cool and I liked a lot of that about him too.  But is that really so big as to make you like the band less now that he's not there? The other band members can't make themselves be Mike's version of "OCD" and they shouldn't. 

Yeah, actually, for me, it is.  And while you can say "well, Stadler, that's YOU", and I agree, but it's no different than losing faith in a band becuase the keyboard player is more douchey than you'd prefer leading up to an album release.  The point isn't the specific issue, but the general premise that being "Team Mike" (I'm being facetious) is an irrational position to take.   There's a LOT of negative nonsense about Sharon Osbourne, and I could care less about most of it.  What bugs me?  The releases of the catalogue that are incomplete, that leave out songs (in all the re-releases of Blizzard and Diary, "You Said It All" and the live material from 1980 with Randy has never been re-released since the original Mr. Crowley EP, except for "YSIA" on a very rare, very expensive promo CD for Crazy Babies).  That to me is a "fuck you" to the fans. 

I LOVED the Ytsejam releases.  No, I'm not a huge Metallica fan, and so "Master Of Puppets" is sort of a dud in that respect, but it's OUT there, and they DID it.  It's MUSIC.  Not everything has to be for me, specifically, but I can tell you, of my other favorite bands  - Beatles, Zeppelin, Kiss, Maiden, Genesis - there's nothing like it.   The Beatles are now starting to flesh out their catalogue with the "50-year" releases, Zeppelin has been great about putting everything out there, Kiss is, well, Kiss, Maiden is getting there (STILL haven't released the full Soundhouse Tapes, though), Genesis, with fits and starts has finally got most of their stuff out (still waiting for an unredacted live Lamb, and the full tapes from the '76 In Concert) but NO ONE did it in real time like Dream Theater, and I deeply, deeply respect that.   

But there's a lot more than just "let's rawk" posts.  Jordan posts a lot of himself playing live - yes, sometimes using an iPad app, but at lot of times on the piano.  I don't watch every time, but but I when I do it's cool and imo very intimate - to just record yourself playing whatever and let people watch it live.  Maybe it's not him talking about his emotions, but I get the feeling that his expresses those through music anyway.  (Also, you'll get to see a cool cat pic every so often. )  JP posts a lot of pictures - at one of the venues in Canada, you can see a huge Rush starman which is backstage and fans wouldn't otherwise have known, and he makes a comment about the home of his heroes.  He recently posted a very nice thank to everyone who supported them this tour - including braving the weather which resonated with me having to drive through snow for that last show (both ways, probably up hill too!).  Probably none of it would fill the void of how MP was on the forum, but I think you'd find stuff there to be engaged with - on some level at least.

And I'm not an animal.  I like the Jordan stuff.  I like that connection.  He's long said he speaks through his music, and fair enough.  I actually ripped one of the fan club DVDs, and separated out some of the Jordan material that he recorded specifically for the Fan Club and put it on my iPod. 

Well, again, you don't like the album.  Some people came away with a new appreciation for it after seeing it live, sounds like that didn't happen for you, but I remember you talking about how much you enjoyed JLB and I think maybe it was JP.  You probably would have like any of the other shows better.

Yeah, fair is fair; James sang his ass off in the show I saw.   I was really impressed with the performance, and in hindsight, I view it for what it was - an opera - not a "Dream Theater concert" (that's not a bad thing, by the way, its a positive).  I think you're right, I should give them another shot.

[bosk1]

But part of this discussion is crucifying Mike for saying one thing and doing another, and I'm merely pointing out that the band has done the same.

And you really need to take off the banboy blinders and stop making that same strawman argument.  People expressing that they prefer something the band is doing now, or criticizing something they don't like about Portnoy isn't "crucifying" him.  Your constant exaggeration of anything slightly critical of him is really doing a huge disservice to any argument you are trying to make. 


Anyhow, on the rotating set lists thing:  Personally, I don't see the need for that.  It was really cool back when they did it.  But them not rotating now doesn't take anything away from how solid the shows have been.  But that said, I personally feel that going back to an A/B format where they have a steady rotation of just a small number of songs like they did on the ADTOE tour would be a nice happy medium.  They kind of have that going on this tour, where they rotate Paralyzed with Fall Into the Light.  But with it only being a single song spot that rotates, it doesn't feel all that different.  If it were 3 songs or so, it would feel a lot more varied, even though in reality, it isn't.  And what I feel even more strongly about is: I also think that keeping the exact same set list when they come back for a second "B market" tour leg is a mistake.  They are trying to make sure all fans in different markets get the same experience.  But I don't think they accept that, overall, they are probably losing ticket sales because people DO travel to see shows, and those markets aren't really that far apart, and they would get more repeat views if they changed things up a bit on subsequent tour legs.  Honestly, I know this is going to come across as kinda arrogant, but I wish they would make me, or Kim, or someone like us their unofficial tour consultants whenever they are putting set lists together.  I think we could point out a lot of things that, from a fan perspective, they just don't realize. 

[gmillerdrake]

Anyhow, on the rotating set lists thing:  Personally, I don't see the need for that.  It was really cool back when they did it.  But them not rotating now doesn't take anything away from how solid the shows have been.  But that said, I personally feel that going back to an A/B format where they have a steady rotation of just a small number of songs like they did on the ADTOE tour would be a nice happy medium.  They kind of have that going on this tour, where they rotate Paralyzed with Fall Into the Light.  But with it only being a single song spot that rotates, it doesn't feel all that different.  If it were 3 songs or so, it would feel a lot more varied, even though in reality, it isn't.  And what I feel even more strongly about is: I also think that keeping the exact same set list when they come back for a second "B market" tour leg is a mistake.  They are trying to make sure all fans in different markets get the same experience.  But I don't think they accept that, overall, they are probably losing ticket sales because people DO travel to see shows, and those markets aren't really that far apart, and they would get more repeat views if they changed things up a bit on subsequent tour legs.  Honestly, I know this is going to come across as kinda arrogant, but I wish they would make me, or Kim, or someone like us their unofficial tour consultants whenever they are putting set lists together.  I think we could point out a lot of things that, from a fan perspective, they just don't realize.

Agree with all of this, especially the bolded. i think at this point of their touring career they'd be served well by having an experienced 'fan' give input as to how they could guarantee maximum crowd draw/satisfaction. You guys are more than the average fan by way of your inside position with the band....and have the pulse of (in general) what the average fans expectations are.




idea from controversial opinions thread: i still think a strictly MM era song tour would be awesome.

[KevShmev]

It is worth noting that sometimes a static set list is so good that fans will travel to multiple cities to see that tour.  Case in point: 2014, when the set list was so great that I went and saw the Chicago show with my brother on a Saturday, and then went and saw the Kansas City show with three friends that following Wednesday. 

[SwedishGoose]

It is worth noting that sometimes a static set list is so good that fans will travel to multiple cities to see that tour.  Case in point: 2014, when the set list was so great that I went and saw the Chicago show with my brother on a Saturday, and then went and saw the Kansas City show with three friends that following Wednesday. 

Saw the Astonishing twice (2 nights in a row in Stockholm)
Saw Images and Words and beyond twice one in Stockholm in february (i think) and the other in Katowice in Poland..... convinced my collegue that a trip to our subcontractors around that time was necessary ( we ended up going together with them as a work thing)

[Ben_Jamin]

Bosk, You're forgetting they also added At Wit's End. Which is one reason I decided to see them again this 2nd leg. I bet quite a lot of fans again just to see/hear that song live.

It works really well, and felt like a Dream Theater show ender.

[KevShmev]

It is worth noting that sometimes a static set list is so good that fans will travel to multiple cities to see that tour.  Case in point: 2014, when the set list was so great that I went and saw the Chicago show with my brother on a Saturday, and then went and saw the Kansas City show with three friends that following Wednesday. 

Saw the Astonishing twice (2 nights in a row in Stockholm)
Saw Images and Words and beyond twice one in Stockholm in february (i think) and the other in Katowice in Poland..... convinced my collegue that a trip to our subcontractors around that time was necessary ( we ended up going together with them as a work thing)

 

I might have gone to see the Astonishing show again had there been one close by and on the weekend, but it just didn't work out that way.

[Stadler]

But part of this discussion is crucifying Mike for saying one thing and doing another, and I'm merely pointing out that the band has done the same.

And you really need to take off the banboy blinders and stop making that same strawman argument.  People expressing that they prefer something the band is doing now, or criticizing something they don't like about Portnoy isn't "crucifying" him.  Your constant exaggeration of anything slightly critical of him is really doing a huge disservice to any argument you are trying to make. 

With respect, that's not accurate reading.  I have no beef whatsoever with personal preferences, or "slight criticism".  I've facetiously said I'm "Team Mike" but only to create contrast; I'm aware enough to separate the two situations.  I don't even disagree with some of the criticisms.  While I don't give as much weight as some do (that's just personal preference), I'd prefer he shut his yap on occasions.  But some of the comments here - not all, not even most, but some - are over the line.  It's when his intelligence is questioned - as it was here - for his decisions/behavior, when he's psychologically diagnosed - as he was here - for his decisions/behavior.  It's when even passive support is deemed "#MPWarrior" or "fanboy blinded" - as it was here.  All this is in the last several pages, Bosk.  I may not be doing a great job of weeding out the really egregious stuff, and I take responsibility for that, but there is no "constant exaggeration", and I'll note that the response to my position has been exceedingly negative, with little apparent willingness to even concede there might be an alternative explanation, let alone agreeing with it. 

I get it, I'm in the distinct minority, but I'd rather just let it go at this point. 

Anyhow, on the rotating set lists thing:  Personally, I don't see the need for that.  It was really cool back when they did it.  But them not rotating now doesn't take anything away from how solid the shows have been.  But that said, I personally feel that going back to an A/B format where they have a steady rotation of just a small number of songs like they did on the ADTOE tour would be a nice happy medium.  They kind of have that going on this tour, where they rotate Paralyzed with Fall Into the Light.  But with it only being a single song spot that rotates, it doesn't feel all that different.  If it were 3 songs or so, it would feel a lot more varied, even though in reality, it isn't.  And what I feel even more strongly about is: I also think that keeping the exact same set list when they come back for a second "B market" tour leg is a mistake.  They are trying to make sure all fans in different markets get the same experience.  But I don't think they accept that, overall, they are probably losing ticket sales because people DO travel to see shows, and those markets aren't really that far apart, and they would get more repeat views if they changed things up a bit on subsequent tour legs.  Honestly, I know this is going to come across as kinda arrogant, but I wish they would make me, or Kim, or someone like us their unofficial tour consultants whenever they are putting set lists together.  I think we could point out a lot of things that, from a fan perspective, they just don't realize.

Have they spoken of this?  Is it really about the "fan experience", or are there other concerns (set staging, vocalist "wear and tear", depth of catalogue are all frequent explanations for static setlists)?  Honest question, because I can see the argument both ways.  I saw Iron Maiden a couple months ago, and they play a strict, set setlist each show with no variation, and it was still one of the best shows I've ever seen EVER. 

[bosk1]

They've spoken on it.  And I've also spoken to them about it.  Fan experience is definitely a factor.  But there are others, some of which you have cited.  (but vocalist wear and tear is NOT one of them)  Of all of them, JP is I think the most outspoken about keeping the set lists static.  He feels that the band being dialed in and tight from repeating the same set, and having it all synced up via the click, really provides the best experience for the fans.  And, whether right, wrong, or somewhere in between, he feels pretty strongly about that.

[gzarruk]

Anyhow, on the rotating set lists thing:  Personally, I don't see the need for that.  It was really cool back when they did it.  But them not rotating now doesn't take anything away from how solid the shows have been.  But that said, I personally feel that going back to an A/B format where they have a steady rotation of just a small number of songs like they did on the ADTOE tour would be a nice happy medium.  They kind of have that going on this tour, where they rotate Paralyzed with Fall Into the Light.  But with it only being a single song spot that rotates, it doesn't feel all that different.  If it were 3 songs or so, it would feel a lot more varied, even though in reality, it isn't.  And what I feel even more strongly about is: I also think that keeping the exact same set list when they come back for a second "B market" tour leg is a mistake.  They are trying to make sure all fans in different markets get the same experience.  But I don't think they accept that, overall, they are probably losing ticket sales because people DO travel to see shows, and those markets aren't really that far apart, and they would get more repeat views if they changed things up a bit on subsequent tour legs.  Honestly, I know this is going to come across as kinda arrogant, but I wish they would make me, or Kim, or someone like us their unofficial tour consultants whenever they are putting set lists together.  I think we could point out a lot of things that, from a fan perspective, they just don't realize.

Spot on. Hope they decide to bring the A and B setlists thing back for future tours.

As for the last part of your post, I obviously don't know how's your personal relationship with JP and the rest of the guys, but I imagine that if there's enough trust between both, you could totally suggest some of these things to him/them and I'm sure they'd at least hear you out. But, again, maybe it's not something they're open to and you obviously can't push with stuff like that.

[cramx3]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

[Adami]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

Indeed. Personally, I don't see rock shows for perfect replications of the album versions of songs. When I see a symphony, I want perfection, because I don't care who the orchestra is and am not interested in their personalities or humanity. When I see a rock show (or pop show or whatever) I am more interested in the personalities than perfect replications without any slight deviation. It seems I am in a pretty small minority with that, but it has stopped me from even wanting to see DT for the last 10 years or so.

[gzarruk]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

At the end of the day, none of this matters when they've avoided your country like the plague for almost 10 years now and you can't afford traveling to neighbor countries to catch the tour

[MinistroRaven]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

At the end of the day, none of this matters when they've avoided your country like the plague for almost 10 years now and you can't afford traveling to neighbor countries to catch the tour

I feel you there man.

[Stadler]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

Indeed. Personally, I don't see rock shows for perfect replications of the album versions of songs. When I see a symphony, I want perfection, because I don't care who the orchestra is and am not interested in their personalities or humanity. When I see a rock show (or pop show or whatever) I am more interested in the personalities than perfect replications without any slight deviation. It seems I am in a pretty small minority with that, but it has stopped me from even wanting to see DT for the last 10 years or so.

Generally, I'm with you on that.   Some of my favorite concert moments are the "real" parts of the show.  Watching Hogarth sing "Freaks" from a piece of paper while Rothery strummed the song on acoustic, because the crowd wouldn't stop chanting "FREAKS! FREAKS!" and Hogarth finally caved.   Or the Kiss show where Gene's "flying rig" jammed up, hanging him four feet off the stage, and him chewing out the roadies... from that point on, the band hit the nitrous and it was a different show (even my daughter, 15 at the time, noticed the difference in the band's performance).  Ian Gillan and Steve Morse sitting on the front of the stage and doing an acoustic "The Aviator".    Adrian Belew doing an impromptu "Free As A Bird" (the Beatles song) during his solo section of the '93 Crimson show in New Haven, a week and a half before the song was actually issued and anyone had  heard it.  The jam section during "Calling To You" in the Page and Plant show, which proved to me why Plant is regarded as one of the greatest front men of all time.   

[Max Kuehnau]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

I most certainly do, but I expect that from myself too (must be a musician thing I guess)

[Adami]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

I most certainly do, but I expect that from myself too (must be a musician thing I guess)

I'm a musician, and no. But a lot of prog metal musicians, definitely.

[cramx3]

It seems the DT fan base really looks for perfection from a DT performance so playing a static set list really helps with that.  I'd rather they rotate personally, but I could see the static set list thing being a reflection on a large part of the fan base already.

I most certainly do, but I expect that from myself too (must be a musician thing I guess)

I understand that desire, and I'm not saying I'd rather DT be sloppy.  But moreso for my personal taste, what Stadler is suggesting, when things aren't static, you can get some really cool concert moments. 

[Lethean]

I want them to be tight and play the songs as close to the original as possible - unless they're intentionally improvising. I don't want the songs to be sloppy. But, I didn't think they were sloppy at all when they rotated the set. They've always been extremely impressive. If they made a couple extra mistakes by rotating the set list but we got to enjoy that rotation and more songs, that I'm totally all for it.  If it was somehow a massive train wreck, then I'd feel differently, but they always put on a very tight show, rotating or not.

[Lethean]

They've spoken on it.  And I've also spoken to them about it.  Fan experience is definitely a factor.  But there are others, some of which you have cited.  (but vocalist wear and tear is NOT one of them)  Of all of them, JP is I think the most outspoken about keeping the set lists static.  He feels that the band being dialed in and tight from repeating the same set, and having it all synced up via the click, really provides the best experience for the fans.  And, whether right, wrong, or somewhere in between, he feels pretty strongly about that.

Great question Stadler, and Bosk, I'm really glad you answered it and shared that with us. I've read speculation over the years that this was more because of James, and I always thought that was kind of wrong based on comments he's made. Like trying to be smart about maybe not singing a certain song every night, but being able to do it every other night. So it's nice to know that is actually JP who's behind it.

[TAC]

Because of James? I've never heard that. They have been pretty clear n their reason on the static setlists from the get go.

[Setlist Scotty]

I also remember Mike telling fans if they don't like cover sets to not go to the second night of a two night stand (in a pretty shitty way actually). Then a bunch of fans went to the second night in south america (I think) and they got SFAM in its entirety. He then got pissy at the fans that were like, "but you said" and his response was, "hey, I told you we'd play a classic album."

I know he warned fans not to go to the second night of a two night stand if they didn't want to see them perform a cover album, but I don't remember him doing so in "a pretty shitty way." Regarding what happened in South America in 2005, you are mis-remembering. Some fans were were very vocal in expressing disappointment over them doing a cover set on the second night due to the fact that this was only the second time that DT was going to be playing in Brazil, and the first time in Argentina, which MP responded to. While he didn't want to reveal what they were going to play at the second night in those 2 places, he said told me after the fact that he decided SFaM "would be the "classic album" the VERY MINUTE the dates were given to me (even before they were announced) being we have never played SFAM in these 2 countries...."
 
 

Also rotating setlists, that absolutely no post-DT MP band has ever had, but I guess the complaints only apply to DT.

You forgot one detail: in none of those post-DT bands has MP been the band leader that he was in DT, aside from SoA. And in the case of SoA, they were touring behind their debut album, so they didn't have any material to swap in and out of the setlist. Of course, they could've mixed up the covers that they included in the set, but I think it's fair to give them a pass on this first tour. Let's see how things go with their tour next year.
 
 

The lack of rotating setlist complaint boggles my mind. It only benefits fans who obsessively check setlists after each show and want to see a bunch of different songs and the 5 fans who may see multiple shows (which if they're doing the same set, you don't have to spend the extra money on more than one show). Plus they change it up from tour-to-tour significantly enough.

I beg to differ. While the number of fans who attended multiple shows may be a minority, there were definitely enough of them to make a difference. Look at the comments that have been made regarding the second leg of this latest tour that DT did in North America. I know I read a bunch of comments by people that said that they won't bother seeing them again because the setlist is almost exactly the same as it was during the first leg, and you can be sure there are plenty of fans not on this forum that felt the same way. It helps explain why the attendance at some shows was far from being at capacity. And I think the same thing could be said for when the band did the second leg through North America back in 2016 (regardless of the fact that the whole setlist was just TA). The point is, many fans are willing to see them multiple times, especially close by if they offer up something different at each show. That doesn't happen since the ban on rotating setlists has taken place.

I'd often be pissed that Des Moines or wherever got a song I wanted and my city ended up with the song I didn't want.

And why would that piss you off? You clearly are not someone who checks "setlists after each show."

It is worth noting that sometimes a static set list is so good that fans will travel to multiple cities to see that tour.  Case in point: 2014, when the set list was so great that I went and saw the Chicago show with my brother on a Saturday, and then went and saw the Kansas City show with three friends that following Wednesday. 

Good for you! But if you want to talk about a minority of fans, I promise, you are a far greater minority than those who would travel to attend multiple shows if the band was rotating the setlist again.