Author Topic: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)  (Read 240858 times)

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Offline TAC

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1015 on: November 03, 2019, 08:06:21 PM »
I would. Anything but Home. Fatal Tragedy would be much better.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1016 on: November 03, 2019, 08:11:56 PM »
There's no need for controversy.  I don't know about anyone else, but I took what he said as "full set dedicated to DT material", but even if I'm wrong and he said "any" DT, so what?  You're really going to crucify a guy for having a change of heart?  In the grand scheme of things does it really matter? If an opportunity comes his way, I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect him to say "Well, I'd love to, but I made a comment to Blabbermouth seven years ago, so..."

Don't think this was directed at me, but I have absolutely no issue with him playing DT stuff with other bands, it's music he helped create after all, and he's in his right to do it as much as he wants. Actually, it would feel wrong for him not to do it.

I just find funny that the guy always changes what he says to accommodate the current situation he's in. Instead of saying "I won't play DT music anymore" (whatever that means), he should just say that he enjoys playing most of that stuff, that it's part of his career and that he will do it if he thinks it's right for the occasion. I'm sure no one would be mad at him for saying that (at least no one should).

IMO he should just acknowledge that it's a very important part of his career and he shouldn't try to completely "move on" from it, just have fun playing some of these songs and not trying to top DT with his X amount of bands that will "certainly blow your mind 'cause it's the best thing I've ever done" mentality.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1017 on: November 03, 2019, 08:32:59 PM »
I just sort of object to telling these people - Mike, Kiss falls into this too (with the replacement guys) - what they "should" be doing.  He does what he does.  It's not new.   It's not going to change.   

Offline TAC

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1018 on: November 03, 2019, 08:34:10 PM »
In unrelated news, KISS' Farewell tour books dates into 2021!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Volante99

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1019 on: November 03, 2019, 10:29:09 PM »


To be fair, A7X was his choice at first, like Bosk was saying, but it obviously didn't play out the way he expected it to be. I think the idea of joining a well stablished band and using his arranging/production skills fully in that band would be another good option for him to consider, given where Mike's professional career is at right now. The problem there, tho, would be to find a big enough band that needs a drummer and that is satisfying musically for him to stay, and there's not many bands that'd fit that criteria out there. And it's not like he could go solo and just tour with a bunch of no names either, unless they are pretty good writers too, because MP isn't exactly a songwriter by himself. He needs good songwriters like Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.

Follow the money; well established (mid level rock/metal) bands are probably hesitant to take a drummer like MP on full-time on a permanent basis because of the salary he commands. Take Ax7 for example, they had a number 1 record that is nearing platinum status and an extremely successful world tour and it still wasn’t enough to secure himself the gig. Why bring MP on when you can get an unknown who will do what they are told, do an album and tour for $50k and demand no publishing, writing credits, merch participation etc. All bullshit aside, I suspect $$$ played a much bigger role in Portnoy not being in Ax7 than anything else. It sounds cynical but no one in metal REALLY likes paying musicians (see Ozzy, Dio, Tobias Forge, the list goes on and on)

This is why Portnoy pretty much HAS to take on multiple projects, and they are usually (supergroup) projects where he has some skin in the game.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 10:37:43 PM by Volante99 »

Offline Anxiety35

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1020 on: November 04, 2019, 08:04:59 AM »


To be fair, A7X was his choice at first, like Bosk was saying, but it obviously didn't play out the way he expected it to be. I think the idea of joining a well stablished band and using his arranging/production skills fully in that band would be another good option for him to consider, given where Mike's professional career is at right now. The problem there, tho, would be to find a big enough band that needs a drummer and that is satisfying musically for him to stay, and there's not many bands that'd fit that criteria out there. And it's not like he could go solo and just tour with a bunch of no names either, unless they are pretty good writers too, because MP isn't exactly a songwriter by himself. He needs good songwriters like Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.

Follow the money; well established (mid level rock/metal) bands are probably hesitant to take a drummer like MP on full-time on a permanent basis because of the salary he commands. Take Ax7 for example, they had a number 1 record that is nearing platinum status and an extremely successful world tour and it still wasn’t enough to secure himself the gig. Why bring MP on when you can get an unknown who will do what they are told, do an album and tour for $50k and demand no publishing, writing credits, merch participation etc. All bullshit aside, I suspect $$$ played a much bigger role in Portnoy not being in Ax7 than anything else. It sounds cynical but no one in metal REALLY likes paying musicians (see Ozzy, Dio, Tobias Forge, the list goes on and on)

This is why Portnoy pretty much HAS to take on multiple projects, and they are usually (supergroup) projects where he has some skin in the game.

All of the above plus I never saw MP being a "fit" for A7X anyway. Sure he could play the material, but he was just...too different for them.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1021 on: November 04, 2019, 08:17:47 AM »
Honest question (since I don't know much about the band):  in what way?

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1022 on: November 04, 2019, 08:22:27 AM »
Honest question (since I don't know much about the band):  in what way?

I always saw it as the Dominici Situation (which I'm always going to use, now, for situations like these): young, hungry band in their late 20s (at the time) playing with a much older guy (13-14 years older) who's a cool dude but perhaps just not the right image or personality that gels with the younger guys despite the older guy thinking he's hip to the crowd.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1023 on: November 04, 2019, 08:38:28 AM »
Not unfair.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1024 on: November 04, 2019, 08:48:59 AM »
but I have absolutely no issue with him playing DT stuff with other bands, it's music he helped create after all, and he's in his right to do it as much as he wants.

My issue has never been with him playing music he helped create. It's his right as you stated.

My issue with the recent 'Scenes' stuff that he posted on his social media to celebrate 20 years of Scenes is that he chose to upload videos of him and his cover band in lieu of say....vids of him playing with DT. I get he's not in the band anymore BUT he wrote that stuff with JP and the gang so I think it'd have been more appropriate for him to upload some 'Live Scenes from NY' or other tour video rather than his cover band. I personally think that was just another instance of the passive aggressive style of social media posts he makes by posting his DT cover songs. He knows the inevitable comments from the 'never MM' crowd are going to be "this is SO much better than DT"......."DT sucks without you"......"please play with DT again".....and so on.


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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1025 on: November 04, 2019, 08:52:43 AM »
That seems like a pretty extreme interpretation.

He did a small tour with TSF. While I had no interest in seeing them, a lot of people did, and I assume an even larger amount of people didn't have the chance to but wanted to. So he chose to upload a video of them since a good amount of people were requesting something. And, as far as I know, they ONLY played DT songs. So either he ignores TSF shows completely, pretends they didn't exist and uploads a vid of DT playing live, of which dozens already exist, or posts the video of the more recent venture that has no official release and people wanted to see.

Don't see any signs of passive aggressiveness, and believe me, there have been PLENTY in the past.
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1026 on: November 04, 2019, 09:10:10 AM »
That seems like a pretty extreme interpretation.

I will admit this is probably the case. for whatever reason I get a bit touchy when it comes to these types of vids he releases and I think it has to do with some remnants of ill will based off the manner in which he abandoned DT.....and his subsequent online behavior. I think I still subconsciously 'look' for it from him. I even spoke to him about this at a Neal Morse show meet and greet. I actually apologized to him for some of the things I said (typed)

I enjoy the heck out of his music for the most part and will always support him as a musician. But I'm still not sold that his intentions and/or motivations behind his vid posts/social media aren't just to glorify himself
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1027 on: November 04, 2019, 09:10:23 AM »
but I have absolutely no issue with him playing DT stuff with other bands, it's music he helped create after all, and he's in his right to do it as much as he wants.

My issue has never been with him playing music he helped create. It's his right as you stated.

My issue with the recent 'Scenes' stuff that he posted on his social media to celebrate 20 years of Scenes is that he chose to upload videos of him and his cover band in lieu of say....vids of him playing with DT. I get he's not in the band anymore BUT he wrote that stuff with JP and the gang so I think it'd have been more appropriate for him to upload some 'Live Scenes from NY' or other tour video rather than his cover band. I personally think that was just another instance of the passive aggressive style of social media posts he makes by posting his DT cover songs. He knows the inevitable comments from the 'never MM' crowd are going to be "this is SO much better than DT"......."DT sucks without you"......"please play with DT again".....and so on.

All respect, you could be right, but it's as likely he CAN'T for some reason.  Who can say if John would have a problem or not, but there are others involved - in the band and out - that might have one.   Same/similar reason he can't involve himself in the Ytsejam stuff.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1028 on: November 04, 2019, 09:13:31 AM »
That seems like a pretty extreme interpretation.

I will admit this is probably the case. for whatever reason I get a bit touchy when it comes to these types of vids he releases and I think it has to do with some remnants of ill will based off the manner in which he abandoned DT.....and his subsequent online behavior. I think I still subconsciously 'look' for it from him. I even spoke to him about this at a Neal Morse show meet and greet. I actually apologized to him for some of the things I said (typed)

I enjoy the heck out of his music for the most part and will always support him as a musician. But I'm still not sold that his intentions and/or motivations behind his vid posts/social media aren't just to glorify himself

One way of putting it... :)   I fully understand why you say that and I'm not posting this to argue with you, it's a legit position to take.  But not the only one.  I think it's more nuanced and complicated than "abandoned".   I know for me, especially having gone through a divorce (with a child involved) that I'm more sympathetic to the vagueries of something like this.   

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1029 on: November 04, 2019, 09:18:48 AM »
That seems like a pretty extreme interpretation.

I will admit this is probably the case. for whatever reason I get a bit touchy when it comes to these types of vids he releases and I think it has to do with some remnants of ill will based off the manner in which he abandoned DT.....and his subsequent online behavior. I think I still subconsciously 'look' for it from him. I even spoke to him about this at a Neal Morse show meet and greet. I actually apologized to him for some of the things I said (typed)

I enjoy the heck out of his music for the most part and will always support him as a musician. But I'm still not sold that his intentions and/or motivations behind his vid posts/social media aren't just to glorify himself

One way of putting it... :)   I fully understand why you say that and I'm not posting this to argue with you, it's a legit position to take.  But not the only one.  I think it's more nuanced and complicated than "abandoned".   I know for me, especially having gone through a divorce (with a child involved) that I'm more sympathetic to the vagueries of something like this.   

Yeah. I'll never be convinced that he wasn't just trying to have the best of all worlds. He tried to hold the DT guys hostage so he could go galavant around the globe with A7X for a couple years because he was caught up in that 'new' atmosphere. It was a total selfish, dickish thing to do and I fully believe he knows that he F'd his whole career with DT up over a very selfish decision. He will never admit it but he doesn't need to. It's pretty evident IMO

I get his 'side' saying he was tired and it was stale and yadda yadda yadda.....but had he not spread himself so thin in the first place that could likely have been avoided in the case of DT and their writing/record/tour process.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1030 on: November 04, 2019, 09:22:02 AM »
Before I get hammered for slamming MP I think I need to make it clear that I love his music. I love watching  him play. He's a freaking incredible showman and obviously legendary drummer. I will and have always supported him musically....buy near all his efforts and see as many of his shows as I can. He and his music have been a major influence in my life.

I just don't buy the narrative he tried to sell about the DT split and am not convinced fully that some of his social media posts aren't still calculated 'shots'
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1031 on: November 04, 2019, 09:28:40 AM »
I don't want you thinking I'm hammering and slammering you, because I'm not.  I totally see where you're coming from.  I just think when you have a band, five personalities (plus wives; it's not a "Yoko" thing to say that they had to have factored in) it can be multiple things.  For example I wouldn't be at all surprised if the response/reaction to/from James is different than the response/reaction to Petrucci.   Another example:  I don't know that it's necessarily "hold hostage", even if one or more of the band felt that's what was going down.  "Selfish" doesn't mean "dickish"; after all, they tell you "put your own oxygen mask on before helping those around you".

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1032 on: November 04, 2019, 09:51:18 AM »
In the end, Portnoy was sort of right about DT needing a break, with a slight amendment: they needed a break from him.  I think his control over the band had gone too far (Napolean complex anyone?) and the music was suffering as a result. The last two albums with him were good, but they were clearly on the downward slope, IMO.  Once he left, the trajectory then moved back upward with ADToE, and now here we are in 2019 with the band having just released what looks to be one of their one or two most well-received albums in the last 15 years.  No, they will never reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, but had the band remained as it was in 2009 into the 2010's, I have my doubts as to whether they would have turned things around.

All that said, I have no problem with him playing DT material with anyone or posting videos of it on YT.  I am sure playing a bunch of it again on the Shattered Fortress tour reminded him of how great a lot of that music is (which I doubt he forgot anyway), and I am sure he misses playing it.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1033 on: November 04, 2019, 09:58:36 AM »
I wonder if he's still goin' muthafuckin' psychosane or clapping obnoxiously on flights.  :lol
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1034 on: November 04, 2019, 10:41:11 AM »
Honest question (since I don't know much about the band):  in what way?

I always saw it as the Dominici Situation (which I'm always going to use, now, for situations like these): young, hungry band in their late 20s (at the time) playing with a much older guy (13-14 years older) who's a cool dude but perhaps just not the right image or personality that gels with the younger guys despite the older guy thinking he's hip to the crowd.

Not just that, but A7X are big drinkers and MP we all know no longer is.  Not that they can't get along, they seemed to have toured fine, but I think the clash of life styles would eventually not work IMO.  That also includes the age difference.

My personal opinion has always been that MP saw green with A7X and it was an easier gig for him as well (not having to be a band leader, not writing and just being a hired gun).  I could only imagine that he had wished that became his full time gig because it really would have been a great place to continue a drumming career. 

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1035 on: November 04, 2019, 11:08:30 AM »
In the end, Portnoy was sort of right about DT needing a break, with a slight amendment: they needed a break from him.  I think his control over the band had gone too far (Napolean complex anyone?) and the music was suffering as a result. The last two albums with him were good, but they were clearly on the downward slope, IMO.  Once he left, the trajectory then moved back upward with ADToE, and now here we are in 2019 with the band having just released what looks to be one of their one or two most well-received albums in the last 15 years.  No, they will never reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, but had the band remained as it was in 2009 into the 2010's, I have my doubts as to whether they would have turned things around.

I only agree with half of that.  The two pre-break records were good not great, and they did need a break, but I can't honestly say I feel DT rebounded afterward.  There are moments on all the subsequent records that are good ("This Is The Life" is a top ten song for me) but I think the creative tension was necessary, and it's missing now.   I just did my top 15 records of 2010-2019, cheating to be closer to 20 and there are three records with Mike on there, and none of the DT records made the cut. 

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1036 on: November 04, 2019, 11:54:39 AM »
In the end, Portnoy was sort of right about DT needing a break, with a slight amendment: they needed a break from him.  I think his control over the band had gone too far (Napolean complex anyone?) and the music was suffering as a result. The last two albums with him were good, but they were clearly on the downward slope, IMO.  Once he left, the trajectory then moved back upward with ADToE, and now here we are in 2019 with the band having just released what looks to be one of their one or two most well-received albums in the last 15 years.  No, they will never reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, but had the band remained as it was in 2009 into the 2010's, I have my doubts as to whether they would have turned things around.

I only agree with half of that.  The two pre-break records were good not great, and they did need a break, but I can't honestly say I feel DT rebounded afterward.  There are moments on all the subsequent records that are good ("This Is The Life" is a top ten song for me) but I think the creative tension was necessary, and it's missing now.   I just did my top 15 records of 2010-2019, cheating to be closer to 20 and there are three records with Mike on there, and none of the DT records made the cut.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1037 on: November 04, 2019, 02:39:39 PM »
If I remember correctly, MP has gone on record stating that he doesn't foresee the Shattered Fortress shows ever getting an official release because he doesn't want to make it a slight against DT. This is just him trying to appease the fans as he always does. At least, that's how I see it.

Found it:

Asked if any of his former bandmates in DREAM THEATER have said anything to him about his decision to perform the band's material without them, and if there are any legal hurdles in him releasing any recordings of him playing the DREAM THEATER music, Portnoy said: "I haven't released the SHATTERED FORTRESS. I have a pro-shot, really well done, filmed and mixed show from that tour, and everybody asks me to release it, but I just kind of have stayed away from it, just because I don't wanna rock the boat.

"I have a really good relationship with John Petrucci and with Jordan [Rudess] these days," he continued. "On Cruise To The Edge, Jordan and I played together and we did some DREAM THEATER and LIQUID TENSION [EXPERIMENT] material together on the cruise. So I have a really good relationship with both those guys, and I just don't wanna rock the boat — I don't wanna do anything that might upset them or begin some negative feelings. We're in a good place right now, personally. And when I see those guys, honestly, we never, ever talk about DREAM THEATER; we don't talk about music. We talk about family and we talk about our friendships and what we're doing. I was with John Petrucci just two weeks ago at a show in [New] Jersey at Dingbatz. His wife was playing and a friend of mine was playing. We spent the whole time hanging out, and not once did music or DREAM THEATER come up. We were just old friends hanging out."
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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1038 on: November 04, 2019, 02:42:43 PM »
Dumb question because I can't remember but didn't MP say he was done playing DT music? Or was it he was done touring DT music as MP Shattered Fortress
Even if he used those exact words (I don't remember), I never believed for a moment that he wouldn't play DT songs occasionally, nor did I believe that was what he meant in the first place.
 
 
I thought Derek and MP said the next tour will have no covers. I don’t see that actually happening though since this is a do or die tour, at least through America.
I actually believe they won't include any DT covers this time around. Pretty sure they intend to have SoA stand on its own two feet. They don't want to have the appearance that they *need* to fall back on their DT songs to make it.
 
 
It doesn't matter what he said, but what he remembers he said (or how he changes the version every time he says it, just like he miraculously changed the story of DS' firing from Dt to shift the blame to the other members)
Did he not take partial blame for letting DS go? Pretty sure you're reading more into his words than what he actually said. And let's be clear - the guy tries to remain as honest and straightforward as possible. Doesn't mean that he won't ever mis-remember something - we all do. But if there happens to be a change in comparison to what he said previously, he's not one to shy away from fessing up to it. Perfect example of that is what the claims of SoA was going to be before they wrote the album in comparison to what it ended up being. He mentioned in interviews that they intended it to be more along the lines of DT, but when they got to writing, the music went in a somewhat different direction. Same thing happened back in 2001 when they were preparing to write DT album #6. Originally it was going to be an album influenced by world music. Then the night before they were to begin working on it, JP and MP saw Pantera in concert, and that influenced them the following day so that they scrapped that whole world music idea.
 
 
but I have absolutely no issue with him playing DT stuff with other bands, it's music he helped create after all, and he's in his right to do it as much as he wants.

My issue has never been with him playing music he helped create. It's his right as you stated.

My issue with the recent 'Scenes' stuff that he posted on his social media to celebrate 20 years of Scenes is that he chose to upload videos of him and his cover band in lieu of say....vids of him playing with DT. I get he's not in the band anymore BUT he wrote that stuff with JP and the gang so I think it'd have been more appropriate for him to upload some 'Live Scenes from NY' or other tour video rather than his cover band. I personally think that was just another instance of the passive aggressive style of social media posts he makes by posting his DT cover songs. He knows the inevitable comments from the 'never MM' crowd are going to be "this is SO much better than DT"......."DT sucks without you"......"please play with DT again".....and so on.
All respect, you could be right, but it's as likely he CAN'T for some reason.  Who can say if John would have a problem or not, but there are others involved - in the band and out - that might have one.   Same/similar reason he can't involve himself in the Ytsejam stuff.
Almost positive that this is the primary reason why you'll never see MP post a DT video. Not because he doesn't want to - he simply cannot without ruffling feathers.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1039 on: November 04, 2019, 03:01:35 PM »
Objectively, both parties are better off after their split because they would have been worse off if they hadn't split. I can't think of a difference in opinion that's more significant for a band than theirs was at the time. When things like this happen, people always leave. That first year post-split was really rough on MP, from not getting the Avenged Sevenfold gig and being locked out of DT, to people being disappointed with AMob. So it's good that in the end he got what he wanted - he is playing with a variety of people and working on a variety of projects, all of which have their own fans. As I said earlier in the thread, I hope that his new drumming career continues to pay off artistically, emotionally and financially.

At the same time, DT continues to be "just a band". A few guys write the music, chip in with the lyrics, they do DT stuff, they try out different approaches and remain true to themselves and their creative vision, not trying to reinvent the wheel. It's good for them, and they like it. Maybe someone misses the guy who used to carry a camera around and think of different performances and projects they could do and write different setlists and bring people into a room to record a DVD commentary track and select out-of-the-box influences to bring into the recording room. I miss that aspect of DT sometimes as well. But we got 25 years of that, and besides, the most important aspect of MP's presence in the band - his taste in music - I'm really not on the same page with it anymore.

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Offline gzarruk

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1040 on: November 04, 2019, 03:04:21 PM »
It doesn't matter what he said, but what he remembers he said (or how he changes the version every time he says it, just like he miraculously changed the story of DS' firing from Dt to shift the blame to the other members)
Did he not take partial blame for letting DS go? Pretty sure you're reading more into his words than what he actually said.

I don’t remember the exact words he used, but it was around the time the SOA album was released, he did an interview with Derek where they talked about Derek being fired by DT and Mike made it sound like it was something the other 4 guys wanted and he had to go along with it (something like that). We discussed it here on the SOA thread, because I remember someone posted something along the lines of “Hey Mike, what are you doing? Rewriting history, and you?” :lol
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1041 on: November 04, 2019, 03:10:33 PM »
It doesn't matter what he said, but what he remembers he said (or how he changes the version every time he says it, just like he miraculously changed the story of DS' firing from Dt to shift the blame to the other members)
Did he not take partial blame for letting DS go? Pretty sure you're reading more into his words than what he actually said.

I don’t remember the exact words he used, but it was around the time the SOA album was released, he did an interview with Derek where they talked about Derek being fired by DT and Mike made it sound like it was something the other 4 guys wanted and he had to go along with it (something like that). We discussed it here on the SOA thread, because I remember someone posted something along the lines of “Hey Mike, what are you doing? Rewriting history, and you?” :lol
I remember that interview, and I remember MP being a bit sheep-ish about it. But I don't remember him denying his role in DS's firing. MP may not have felt completely comfortable with it, because DS hadn't done anything wrong (and therefore wasn't deserving of being fired), but that doesn't mean that MP wasn't in agreement with it because he knew that JR's style was more in the direction that they wanted to take the band. Not sure how that's rewriting history. I don't remember MP throwing the rest of the band under the bus.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1042 on: November 04, 2019, 03:13:05 PM »
In the end, Portnoy was sort of right about DT needing a break, with a slight amendment: they needed a break from him.  I think his control over the band had gone too far (Napolean complex anyone?) and the music was suffering as a result. The last two albums with him were good, but they were clearly on the downward slope, IMO.  Once he left, the trajectory then moved back upward with ADToE, and now here we are in 2019 with the band having just released what looks to be one of their one or two most well-received albums in the last 15 years.  No, they will never reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, but had the band remained as it was in 2009 into the 2010's, I have my doubts as to whether they would have turned things around.

I only agree with half of that.  The two pre-break records were good not great, and they did need a break, but I can't honestly say I feel DT rebounded afterward.  There are moments on all the subsequent records that are good ("This Is The Life" is a top ten song for me) but I think the creative tension was necessary, and it's missing now.  I just did my top 15 records of 2010-2019, cheating to be closer to 20 and there are three records with Mike on there, and none of the DT records made the cut.

Okay, but what does have to do with Dream Theater?  If it was meant to imply that Dream Theater would have re-captured that very high level of greatness in regards to studio albums, that he captured on other albums in the 10's, had he remained in Dream Theater, I am not sure I agree.  It's clear that the band dynamic was "off" in his final years in it and a change was needed, especially since it appears clear that he had a falling out with both LaBrie and Myung.

As has been said by many of us, the change was not only best for everyone involved, but for the fans as well.  Dream Theater, by my watch, has had a resurgence since Mangini joined, and since it could easily be argued that Flying Colors wouldn't have happened if Portnoy was still in DT, I call that a major win.  Plus, perhaps Neal Morse's solo prog career never becomes the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT, so there is also that.  The presence alone of the six albums combined by Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band means we've all won as a result of the split that happened in 2010.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1043 on: November 05, 2019, 07:38:45 AM »
In the end, Portnoy was sort of right about DT needing a break, with a slight amendment: they needed a break from him.  I think his control over the band had gone too far (Napolean complex anyone?) and the music was suffering as a result. The last two albums with him were good, but they were clearly on the downward slope, IMO.  Once he left, the trajectory then moved back upward with ADToE, and now here we are in 2019 with the band having just released what looks to be one of their one or two most well-received albums in the last 15 years.  No, they will never reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, but had the band remained as it was in 2009 into the 2010's, I have my doubts as to whether they would have turned things around.

I only agree with half of that.  The two pre-break records were good not great, and they did need a break, but I can't honestly say I feel DT rebounded afterward.  There are moments on all the subsequent records that are good ("This Is The Life" is a top ten song for me) but I think the creative tension was necessary, and it's missing now.  I just did my top 15 records of 2010-2019, cheating to be closer to 20 and there are three records with Mike on there, and none of the DT records made the cut.

Okay, but what does have to do with Dream Theater?  If it was meant to imply that Dream Theater would have re-captured that very high level of greatness in regards to studio albums, that he captured on other albums in the 10's, had he remained in Dream Theater, I am not sure I agree.  It's clear that the band dynamic was "off" in his final years in it and a change was needed, especially since it appears clear that he had a falling out with both LaBrie and Myung.

As has been said by many of us, the change was not only best for everyone involved, but for the fans as well.  Dream Theater, by my watch, has had a resurgence since Mangini joined, and since it could easily be argued that Flying Colors wouldn't have happened if Portnoy was still in DT, I call that a major win.  Plus, perhaps Neal Morse's solo prog career never becomes the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT, so there is also that.  The presence alone of the six albums combined by Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band means we've all won as a result of the split that happened in 2010.

I'm not arguing, just answering your question.  What does it have to do with Dream Theater?  It's my confirmation that to me they didn't resurge.   I disagree that they had a resurgence.  I get a vibe of continuing down the same path.   Granted, The Astonishing was, creatively, a huge leap (even if they didn't stick the landing IMO) but the rest of the three albums just seem like coasting on autopilot to me.  A pretty high level of autopilot (they don't suck) but autopilot nonetheless.

I don't disagree that Mike has been involved in some pretty exciting work; his leaving indirectly opened me up to the world of Neal Morse and for that I am eternally grateful.   I don't argue with the last comment, that we all won.  Just FOR ME, Dream Theater isn't a material part of that equation.  They went from an "exceptional band" that I liked pre-2010, to "just one of many bands I like" post-2010.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1044 on: November 05, 2019, 08:53:25 AM »
As has been said by many of us, the change was not only best for everyone involved, but for the fans as well.  Dream Theater, by my watch, has had a resurgence since Mangini joined, and since it could easily be argued that Flying Colors wouldn't have happened if Portnoy was still in DT, I call that a major win.  Plus, perhaps Neal Morse's solo prog career never becomes the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT, so there is also that.  The presence alone of the six albums combined by Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band means we've all won as a result of the split that happened in 2010.

But we also got AMOB, Metal Allegiance and TWD :P
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1045 on: November 05, 2019, 08:58:42 AM »
As has been said by many of us, the change was not only best for everyone involved, but for the fans as well.  Dream Theater, by my watch, has had a resurgence since Mangini joined, and since it could easily be argued that Flying Colors wouldn't have happened if Portnoy was still in DT, I call that a major win.  Plus, perhaps Neal Morse's solo prog career never becomes the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT, so there is also that.  The presence alone of the six albums combined by Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band means we've all won as a result of the split that happened in 2010.

But we also got AMOB, Metal Allegiance and TWD :P

... and "The Astonishing" and "Live At Luna Park".  ;) :)

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1046 on: November 05, 2019, 09:08:35 AM »


I'm not arguing, just answering your question.  What does it have to do with Dream Theater?  It's my confirmation that to me they didn't resurge.   I disagree that they had a resurgence.  I get a vibe of continuing down the same path.   Granted, The Astonishing was, creatively, a huge leap (even if they didn't stick the landing IMO) but the rest of the three albums just seem like coasting on autopilot to me.  A pretty high level of autopilot (they don't suck) but autopilot nonetheless.

I don't disagree that Mike has been involved in some pretty exciting work; his leaving indirectly opened me up to the world of Neal Morse and for that I am eternally grateful.   I don't argue with the last comment, that we all won.  Just FOR ME, Dream Theater isn't a material part of that equation.  They went from an "exceptional band" that I liked pre-2010, to "just one of many bands I like" post-2010.

I meant a resurgence in overall quality, not in forging a new path.  YMMV of course, but I know I am not alone in thinking the quality of their music trended back upward starting with ADToE.  On various sites, their two highest rated albums of the last 15 albums are ADToE and Distance over Time.  And that doesn't mean that Mangini > Portnoy. I prefer Portnoy as a drummer (leaving his personality out of the equation :P ), but I just think the band was really motivated to prove themselves again following his departure.  Same goes for the new album, as I think they knew that a lot of fans weren't wild about The Astonishing (I was, but many were not) and wanted to give the whole fan base a kick ass record again.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1047 on: November 05, 2019, 09:23:45 AM »
In the end, Portnoy was sort of right about DT needing a break, with a slight amendment: they needed a break from him.  I think his control over the band had gone too far (Napolean complex anyone?) and the music was suffering as a result. The last two albums with him were good, but they were clearly on the downward slope, IMO.  Once he left, the trajectory then moved back upward with ADToE, and now here we are in 2019 with the band having just released what looks to be one of their one or two most well-received albums in the last 15 years.  No, they will never reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, but had the band remained as it was in 2009 into the 2010's, I have my doubts as to whether they would have turned things around.

I only agree with half of that.  The two pre-break records were good not great, and they did need a break, but I can't honestly say I feel DT rebounded afterward.  There are moments on all the subsequent records that are good ("This Is The Life" is a top ten song for me) but I think the creative tension was necessary, and it's missing now.  I just did my top 15 records of 2010-2019, cheating to be closer to 20 and there are three records with Mike on there, and none of the DT records made the cut.

Okay, but what does have to do with Dream Theater?  If it was meant to imply that Dream Theater would have re-captured that very high level of greatness in regards to studio albums, that he captured on other albums in the 10's, had he remained in Dream Theater, I am not sure I agree.  It's clear that the band dynamic was "off" in his final years in it and a change was needed, especially since it appears clear that he had a falling out with both LaBrie and Myung.

As has been said by many of us, the change was not only best for everyone involved, but for the fans as well.  Dream Theater, by my watch, has had a resurgence since Mangini joined, and since it could easily be argued that Flying Colors wouldn't have happened if Portnoy was still in DT, I call that a major win.  Plus, perhaps Neal Morse's solo prog career never becomes the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT, so there is also that.  The presence alone of the six albums combined by Flying Colors and Neal Morse Band means we've all won as a result of the split that happened in 2010.

I'm not arguing, just answering your question.  What does it have to do with Dream Theater?  It's my confirmation that to me they didn't resurge.   I disagree that they had a resurgence.  I get a vibe of continuing down the same path.   Granted, The Astonishing was, creatively, a huge leap (even if they didn't stick the landing IMO) but the rest of the three albums just seem like coasting on autopilot to me.  A pretty high level of autopilot (they don't suck) but autopilot nonetheless.

I don't disagree that Mike has been involved in some pretty exciting work; his leaving indirectly opened me up to the world of Neal Morse and for that I am eternally grateful.   I don't argue with the last comment, that we all won.  Just FOR ME, Dream Theater isn't a material part of that equation.  They went from an "exceptional band" that I liked pre-2010, to "just one of many bands I like" post-2010.
Some of this has more to do with you than it does with them.  They had more things in mind than "What will Stadler think?" :)

But if we want to speak resurgence with Mangini, one easy thing to point to is that in all of Portnoy's time with the band, they had zero Grammy nominations.  Since he left, they have 2 Grammy nominations.  I mean, you can pooh-pooh awards shows if you want, but the Grammys are still a big deal, and one they never achieved until Mangini was in the band.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1048 on: November 05, 2019, 10:05:16 AM »
You misunderstand, though.  They should NEVER have had "what will Stadler think?" in mind (though I have "WWSD" t-shirts for sale if you want one!).  I'm not saying that to give myself any importance; just the opposite.  The point is that there is no universal truth to this.  It's all in the eye of the beholder.  If you criticize me for "what will Stadler think", then you MUST criticize KevShmev for the same thing, not because I'm right and he's wrong, but because neither one of us is doing anything other than sharing an opinion.

To counter the ratings at an un-named site I can't check, and two Grammy noms, I counter with the equally uncertain and subjective "album sales" and "chart positions".   Black Clouds hit no. 6 on the charts and moved 40,200 copies in the first week.  NO DT album has charted that high since (as close as 7) and the self-titled moved 30,000 in the first week.  The band has played Connecticut 11 times since 2000, and excluding one opening act slot, they've played the same place every time (the Oakdale, a 5,000 seat theater).   Similar sitch in Philly (I can't really see a pattern in NY or LA, but there are too many places of equivalent size to make any conclusions). 

I would also note the rampant complaints about the sound quality on the records, particularly Mangini's sound (though that's not meant to bag on him specifically).   

Again, not saying I'm right, just that there are arguments on both sides of the fence and neither are objectively determinative.


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Re: The Mike Portnoy Appreciation/Discussion Thread (merged)
« Reply #1049 on: November 05, 2019, 10:05:30 AM »
I'm not sure DT had a resurgence, seems they've been mostly along the same path not just musically but in terms of sales and concert attendance.  They don't play bigger venues than they did 20 years ago.  They aren't selling more albums (no one is, but they have charted well and fairly consistently since BC&SL).  I think the only resurgence in any statistical way is from playing empty venues on the 2nd leg of TA tour in NA to filling those venues during I&W&B and the first leg of SFAM20 tours.