Down with genre snobbery!

[KevShmev]

Okay, I was inspired to start this thread here in GM as it will probably get more discussion than in the P/S thread.  Here is my post from there (but slightly altered):

Genre snobbery is really annoying - ya know, those people who only listen to one genre, think it is far superior to all others, and think listening to others is a waste of time - and more specifically, prog snobbery is super annoying, and sadly, it exists among a lot of people who admittedly listened to almost nothing but prog.  You get this kind of "Why would you listen to anything but prog?" attitude.  I can't remember where, but a few years back when it was the end of the year and we posted our top 10s for the year, I had several non-prog albums near or maybe even at the top (cannot exactly remember), ahead of some of the major prog releases of that year, and I got a reply along the lines of, "I thought you were a prog fan; how can you put those non-prog albums ahead of such and such?"

In my defense, I was never that obnoxious or annoying about it, but I definitely went through somewhat of a prog snob phase in the late 90s/early 00s, but that was more of a case of me getting into a bunch of prog at the time and not having interest in anything else, rather than me dismissing anything just because it wasn't prog.  Heck, I am sucker for a lot of 80s cheese, but I barely listened to that stuff for a long time, simply because I was so obsessed with listening to nothing but prog.  Now, that stuff is a somewhat regular part of my listening rotation.  In the late 90s, I probably went through a two-year period where Rush, Dream Theater, Yes and Pink Floyd occupied 95% of my music listening time.  Now, no band occupies probably more than 5%.

To me, good music is good music, regardless of genre.  Variety is the spice of life, and that line of thinking definitely applies to music.  Yes, a good number of my favorites songs, bands, albums, etc. are prog - let's face it, when done well, prog IS hard to beat - but I am not so foolish as to believe that prog is the only good music worth listening to.

[zxlkho]

I agree. Good music is good music. It's just that in my experience almost all of that music has been prog or "progressive."

[Gadough]

I agree. Good music is good music. It's just that in my experience almost all of that music has been prog or "progressive" or "The Wu Tang Clan."

^^^

[Volk9]

I used to be like that when I first started listening to DT/progressive metal. Claiming it was better than everything else, calling mainstream music crap, etc.

Than I grew up and realized that theres some sort of value in EVERY form of music; mainstream or not.

[Dr. DTVT]

Agreeing with Letters, and prog isn't new to me.  I don't relate to the themes in rap, country, and popular music, therefore they don't interest me.  Musically, most mainstream music is very boring to me.  I'm allowed to not like things.

[Rina]

I think any kind of music can be good, regardless of its category. In general, there's certain types I don't like much, but that doesn't mean ALL of that kind of music is bad or anything.

[ariich]

I do agree, but I don't think it's a problem on this forum at all. My "top whatever" lists frequently include albums that have nothing to do with prog and if anything those are the picks that get the most praise from other forumers. Maybe 5-10 years ago prog fans were a bit more elite, because prog was a bit more underground and less "cool" back then, but now that nobody cares and it's ok to like prog again, the fanbase has become more open minded.

And I don't think prog snobs are any worse than any other genre snobs. They're all equally silly.

[Perpetual Change]

For me, the fan bases of individual artists can be just as annoying. I really hate when fans go around touting Jehova Witness type levels of zeal for their favorite bands. I learned this lesson the hard way when I was just getting out of my favorite band at the time, Tool, and realized just how ridiculous so many people were about Maynard and the band and how "great" and "prophetic" and "enlightening" they supposedly are. Unfortunately, I jumped out of that into another form of zeal for Dream Theater.

Zealous fans are closed off to appreciating different music. They also isolate others from the band they're trying to support, rather then help them get into new music. Finally, they set the tone for unreasonable expectations. Around 2003, when the internet had thoroughly introduced a whole new slew of fans to a group of "musical geniuses" who all had "perfected their instruments," suddenly this group of fans had to explain a "Train of Thought" to themselves. Thus what should have been perceived as a solid album got more or less torn a new one by fans who couldn't cope with their own expectations.

Honestly, I see this attitude here and other places too when I read people talking about Porcupine Tree, Opeth, Devin Townsend, or really any band that's got a good buzz going for them. Unfortunately, people don't jump from being zealous fans into being reasonable ones. They jump from being zealous about one artist to being zealous about a new one. Because, you know, it's better now because the new artist is really the best ever.  

[LudwigVan]

Snobbery is not too different from racism... It's borne of ignorance

The interesting thing about "musical" snobbery is the fact that the  word is most often associated with 3 types of music: jazz, classical and prog.    Meanwhile, you almost never hear of a rap snob, or a country or punk snob.

In that sense, I submit that prog fans are subject to a kind or "reverse" snobbery, wherein they get ridiculed for enjoying and championing that style of music. Institutions like the RnR Hall of Fame and Rolling Stone magazine are notorious in their "reverse" snobbery.

[skydivingninja]

Lots of what I feel about the subject has already been said, but my biggest beef with snobbery (prog or otherwise) is not being able to grasp the simple concept of WHY someone might like something else.  I find myself defending artists like Lady Gaga on this forum when someone wonders HOW ANYone could like her music.  If you don't like it fine, but at least make an attempt to understand why someone might like "Bad Romance" more than "The Revealing Science of God."

PC: Zealous fans can be annoying *COUGHCOLENOOBERCOUGH* but I don't think its accurate to say that they're incapable of getting into other bands/genres.

[Fuzzboy]

*COUGHCOLENOOBERCOUGH*.

BUT EARTH DAY

EARTH

DAY


WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT IT'S THE GREATEST THING EVAR

[ZBomber]

I don't think I've ever been a prog snob, because I've always liked classic rock, 70s pop music, and some basic metal before I got into prog.

I used to be kind of snobby about music when I was younger, but now I'm pretty accepting of most music out there. The overuse of auto-tune really pisses me off though, just because its beginning to take any talent out of music. But that's a whole different issue...

[Gorille85]

There is good music AND bad music in every genre of music. I think you need to be openminded to fully appreciate all the good stuff that's out there.

[jsem]

My grandmother is the worst genre snob. She barely listens to anything other than romanticist music, and she specifically loves operas. Ugh. Not that there's anything wrong with that style of music at all (lets face it... Baroque > romanticism.. big time).

I am not a genre snob, but some times I do bash entire genres... something I shouldn't be doing

[TAC]

I'm a musical racist..er..snob..I'm guilty. And sometimes it happens within the metal genre. And I end up regretting it.

Case in point..at the time, I had NO interest in Black sabbath with Tony Martin. NONE. They toured and I didn't even look their way. Even though the albums got good reviews, I passed on them.. NOW, I regret it very much.

[Ravenheart]

Agreed! Nothing annoys me more than snobbery and arrogance in any form. Some music fans are among the worst offenders.

I'm currently writing an argumentative essay in my english class about the uselessness and meaningless of genres, especially in this day and age. Many of the points you brought up I have brainstormed on as well.

Lots of what I feel about the subject has already been said, but my biggest beef with snobbery (prog or otherwise) is not being able to grasp the simple concept of WHY someone might like something else.  I find myself defending artists like Lady Gaga on this forum when someone wonders HOW ANYone could like her music.  If you don't like it fine, but at least make an attempt to understand why someone might like "Bad Romance" more than "The Revealing Science of God."

PC: Zealous fans can be annoying *COUGHCOLENOOBERCOUGH* but I don't think its accurate to say that they're incapable of getting into other bands/genres.

This, too. It's so ridiculous reading youtube commets like, "How is it even possible that Justin Beiber is more popular than Opeth?!?!   "

.... Seriously? It's pretty easy to understand.

[El Barto]

Snobbery is not too different from racism... It's borne of ignorance

The interesting thing about "musical" snobbery is the fact that the  word is most often associated with 3 types of music: jazz, classical and prog.    Meanwhile, you almost never hear of a rap snob, or a country or punk snob.

In that sense, I submit that prog fans are subject to a kind or "reverse" snobbery, wherein they get ridiculed for enjoying and championing that style of music. Institutions like the RnR Hall of Fame and Rolling Stone magazine are notorious in their "reverse" snobbery.

I like to think that I'm a halfway bright fellow.  Because of that, I often have to remind myself that being bright doesn't make me better or right.  People nowhere near as intelligent as me can and do correct me all the time.  Recognizing this is [as I see it] an aspect of wisdom.  This aspect is what seems to be missing in the snobbery that we're discussing.  People have a hard time accepting that being more talented doesn't make you better.  Nor does producing music that doesn't appeal to you make an artist bad.

I think any member of DT has far more talent than all of U2 combined.  I also like DT's music and can't stand anything U2 ever did (outside of BtBS).  At no point will I ever say that U2 sucks,  that they're bad,  that they have no talent,  that I can't understand why people like them or that DT is better than them in anyway outside of my own personal interests and some of their technical abilities.  It's just a matter of being able to recognize that worth is a highly relative thing.  

The reason I appended this onto Ludwig's post was that after I had already formulated my opinion, I noticed his point that it's jazz, classical and prog music that seems to be where all the snobbery exists.  This is fascinating.  I can't help but to think that if we were to rank the average IQs of all of the various genres, we'd see a stark difference between classical, jazz and prog vs. country, rap and punk.  I would have to view this as a continuation of that sense of superiority.

Furthermore, the posts on this thread seem to bare this out, as well.  It appears to be the older DTFers that are more accepting of other music, while the youngsters are defending their snobbery.  25 years ago, I would have had a similar mindset.  "U2 sucks.  AC/DC is 80 times better than they ever will be.  You're an idiot for listening to them."  I'm thinking that this snobbery is just something that people should eventually grow out of.  

[KevShmev]

Generally speaking, yes, genres are not really necessary, but they are extremely helpful when it comes to reviews, recommendations, etc.  For example, if someone is writing a review for a new band, instead of using all kinds of descriptive words, it is sometimes necessary to say that they sound like this or that band or that they are similar to said genre, which helps a possible listener get some type of idea of what they might sound like.  

[Ravenheart]

Oh, definitely. I'd never argue with that. Genres have helped me discover some of my favorite bands.

[Marvellous G]

I agree. Good music is good music. In my experience I've found that a lot of the music I like is progressive, but there are tons of other genres I like that aren't progressive in any way.

[ariich]

Snobbery is not too different from racism... It's borne of ignorance

The interesting thing about "musical" snobbery is the fact that the  word is most often associated with 3 types of music: jazz, classical and prog.    Meanwhile, you almost never hear of a rap snob, or a country or punk snob.

In that sense, I submit that prog fans are subject to a kind or "reverse" snobbery, wherein they get ridiculed for enjoying and championing that style of music. Institutions like the RnR Hall of Fame and Rolling Stone magazine are notorious in their "reverse" snobbery.

I like to think that I'm a halfway bright fellow.  Because of that, I often have to remind myself that being bright doesn't make me better or right.  People nowhere near as intelligent as me can and do correct me all the time.  Recognizing this is [as I see it] an aspect of wisdom.  This aspect is what seems to be missing in the snobbery that we're discussing.  People have a hard time accepting that being more talented doesn't make you better.  Nor does producing music that doesn't appeal to you make an artist bad.

I think any member of DT has far more talent than all of U2 combined.  I also like DT's music and can't stand anything U2 ever did (outside of BtBS).  At no point will I ever say that U2 sucks,  that they're bad,  that they have no talent,  that I can't understand why people like them or that DT is better than them in anyway outside of my own personal interests and some of their technical abilities.  It's just a matter of being able to recognize that worth is a highly relative thing. 

The reason I appended this onto Ludwig's post was that after I had already formulated my opinion, I noticed his point that it's jazz, classical and prog music that seems to be where all the snobbery exists.  This is fascinating.  I can't help but to think that if we were to rank the average IQs of all of the various genres, we'd see a stark difference between classical, jazz and prog vs. country, rap and punk.  I would have to view this as a continuation of that sense of superiority.

Furthermore, the posts on this thread seem to bare this out, as well.  It appears to be the older DTFers that are more accepting of other music, while the youngsters are defending their snobbery.  25 years ago, I would have had a similar mindset.  "U2 sucks.  AC/DC is 80 times better than they ever will be.  You're an idiot for listening to them."  I'm thinking that this snobbery is just something that people should eventually grow out of. 

I see just as much snobbery for rap, punk, etc, as I do for the more "intellectual" genres. Maybe due to the nature of the music and the fans it's not so apparent that it's snobbery, but it's the same thing.

[El Barto]

Snobbery is not too different from racism... It's borne of ignorance

The interesting thing about "musical" snobbery is the fact that the  word is most often associated with 3 types of music: jazz, classical and prog.    Meanwhile, you almost never hear of a rap snob, or a country or punk snob.

In that sense, I submit that prog fans are subject to a kind or "reverse" snobbery, wherein they get ridiculed for enjoying and championing that style of music. Institutions like the RnR Hall of Fame and Rolling Stone magazine are notorious in their "reverse" snobbery.

I like to think that I'm a halfway bright fellow.  Because of that, I often have to remind myself that being bright doesn't make me better or right.  People nowhere near as intelligent as me can and do correct me all the time.  Recognizing this is [as I see it] an aspect of wisdom.  This aspect is what seems to be missing in the snobbery that we're discussing.  People have a hard time accepting that being more talented doesn't make you better.  Nor does producing music that doesn't appeal to you make an artist bad.

I think any member of DT has far more talent than all of U2 combined.  I also like DT's music and can't stand anything U2 ever did (outside of BtBS).  At no point will I ever say that U2 sucks,  that they're bad,  that they have no talent,  that I can't understand why people like them or that DT is better than them in anyway outside of my own personal interests and some of their technical abilities.  It's just a matter of being able to recognize that worth is a highly relative thing. 

The reason I appended this onto Ludwig's post was that after I had already formulated my opinion, I noticed his point that it's jazz, classical and prog music that seems to be where all the snobbery exists.  This is fascinating.  I can't help but to think that if we were to rank the average IQs of all of the various genres, we'd see a stark difference between classical, jazz and prog vs. country, rap and punk.  I would have to view this as a continuation of that sense of superiority.

Furthermore, the posts on this thread seem to bare this out, as well.  It appears to be the older DTFers that are more accepting of other music, while the youngsters are defending their snobbery.  25 years ago, I would have had a similar mindset.  "U2 sucks.  AC/DC is 80 times better than they ever will be.  You're an idiot for listening to them."  I'm thinking that this snobbery is just something that people should eventually grow out of. 

I see just as much snobbery for rap, punk, etc, as I do for the more "intellectual" genres. Maybe due to the nature of the music and the fans it's not so apparent that it's snobbery, but it's the same thing.

Perhaps the difference is where it's directed.  Inter vs. intra-genre snobbery.  Most people who listen to the [so-called] less intellectual genres don't seem to care one way or another about classical music or jazz.  They might haggle over the superiority of West coast vs. East coast,  country vs. Western or British vs. New York punk, but they don't go out of their way to say that Rush sucks. 

[j]

This phenomenon has never bothered me.  I've never remotely been a "genre snob", nor have I noticed it to any significant degree in others.

But the fact is, if somebody likes prog and other genres don't do it for them, so be it!  Of course they think the music they like is better than others; we all do.  I'm not sure I'd call that snobbery.

However, I would call it ignorant.  Dismissing huge swaths of music because it's not what you usually listen to is doing yourself a huge disservice.  There's great music out there in every genre except country (), and IMO you're missing out if you're too set in your ways to realize that.

Also the stuff EB said about the wisdom of being able to concede that you don't necessarily know it all, etc.

-J

[ariich]

I would very strongly disagree, Barto. I have been told a number of times that the metal music I listen to is "shit" and "just noise".

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

I can unfortunately be a prog snob at times. Of course, I don't listen to exclusively prog.

[Marvellous G]

I think having sort of moved out of my prog phase for now, I'm almost getting the reverse kind of snobbery in some ways. 

[glaurung]

I would very strongly disagree, Barto. I have been told a number of times that the metal music I listen to is "shit" and "just noise".

Don't forget the classic "it's just dudes screaming".

[Ben_Jamin]

It does get annoying, but I don't take it to heart as they're not as interested in music. The thing that does bother me though is how people are being told what to think, including what type of music they should listen too, because its hip, the cool, in the now. Music should be felt, its a wonder of the world for a reason. I'm aware I most likely acted snobby, but now i don't care what it is, if it makes me feel good, happy, weird, or some other feeling I'll listen to it maybe buy the album. Don't be ignorant and give whatever you listen to a chance, just like how I enjoy the actual version of Imogen Heap - Hide and Seek even before SNL made fun of it, and made it popular, now we got 1,000,000+ remixes.

 

For me, the fan bases of individual artists can be just as annoying. I really hate when fans go around touting Jehova Witness type levels of zeal for their favorite bands. I learned this lesson the hard way when I was just getting out of my favorite band at the time, Tool, and realized just how ridiculous so many people were about Maynard and the band and how "great" and "prophetic" and "enlightening" they supposedly are. Unfortunately, I jumped out of that into another form of zeal for Dream Theater.

Zealous fans are closed off to appreciating different music. They also isolate others from the band they're trying to support, rather then help them get into new music. Finally, they set the tone for unreasonable expectations. Around 2003, when the internet had thoroughly introduced a whole new slew of fans to a group of "musical geniuses" who all had "perfected their instruments," suddenly this group of fans had to explain a "Train of Thought" to themselves. Thus what should have been perceived as a solid album got more or less torn a new one by fans who couldn't cope with their own expectations.

Honestly, I see this attitude here and other places too when I read people talking about Porcupine Tree, Opeth, Devin Townsend, or really any band that's got a good buzz going for them. Unfortunately, people don't jump from being zealous fans into being reasonable ones. They jump from being zealous about one artist to being zealous about a new one. Because, you know, it's better now because the new artist is really the best ever.  

100% agree. If anything those fans are the worst fans. They think they own the band, and get disappointed when their new album comes out and it sounds nothing like their favorite album. What bugs me is when bands listen to them when in all reality they shouldn't and just do whatever the hell they want. You could pretty much blame the internet for all the harsh things that are said. But as I said earlier bands should ignore and play what they see fit. Which is another reason some popular concerts aren't that great, all you get are hits. Yes, I know people want to hear the "hits", but real fans won't care what you play.
 
One thing I learned to enjoy a new album, DONT SET EXPECTATIONS. I do that and enjoy all albums. Music is vast and ever expanding like the universe.

[King Postwhore]

I would very strongly disagree, Barto. I have been told a number of times that the metal music I listen to is "shit" and "just noise".

I think that it's more about tastes.  We all have a bit of, "My music is better than yours"  or "I don't think that sounds good at all".  This we all do.

[LudwigVan]

Snobbery is not too different from racism... It's borne of ignorance

The interesting thing about "musical" snobbery is the fact that the  word is most often associated with 3 types of music: jazz, classical and prog.    Meanwhile, you almost never hear of a rap snob, or a country or punk snob.

In that sense, I submit that prog fans are subject to a kind or "reverse" snobbery, wherein they get ridiculed for enjoying and championing that style of music. Institutions like the RnR Hall of Fame and Rolling Stone magazine are notorious in their "reverse" snobbery.

I like to think that I'm a halfway bright fellow.  Because of that, I often have to remind myself that being bright doesn't make me better or right.  People nowhere near as intelligent as me can and do correct me all the time.  Recognizing this is [as I see it] an aspect of wisdom.  This aspect is what seems to be missing in the snobbery that we're discussing.  People have a hard time accepting that being more talented doesn't make you better.  Nor does producing music that doesn't appeal to you make an artist bad.

I think any member of DT has far more talent than all of U2 combined.  I also like DT's music and can't stand anything U2 ever did (outside of BtBS).  At no point will I ever say that U2 sucks,  that they're bad,  that they have no talent,  that I can't understand why people like them or that DT is better than them in anyway outside of my own personal interests and some of their technical abilities.  It's just a matter of being able to recognize that worth is a highly relative thing. 

The reason I appended this onto Ludwig's post was that after I had already formulated my opinion, I noticed his point that it's jazz, classical and prog music that seems to be where all the snobbery exists.  This is fascinating.  I can't help but to think that if we were to rank the average IQs of all of the various genres, we'd see a stark difference between classical, jazz and prog vs. country, rap and punk.  I would have to view this as a continuation of that sense of superiority.

Furthermore, the posts on this thread seem to bare this out, as well.  It appears to be the older DTFers that are more accepting of other music, while the youngsters are defending their snobbery.  25 years ago, I would have had a similar mindset.  "U2 sucks.  AC/DC is 80 times better than they ever will be.  You're an idiot for listening to them."  I'm thinking that this snobbery is just something that people should eventually grow out of. 

I see just as much snobbery for rap, punk, etc, as I do for the more "intellectual" genres. Maybe due to the nature of the music and the fans it's not so apparent that it's snobbery, but it's the same thing.

I guess the only real difference between a "snob" and a plain old "hater" is the fact that the prog/jazz/classical elitist has the wherewithal to write a 50-page dissertation on why X genre of music is superior to every other form, pontificating on the merits of polymeter, hocketing, invertible counterpoint.... whereas the rap/country guy couldn't be arsed.    

[ariich]

I guess the only real difference between a "snob" and a plain old "hater" is the fact that the prog/jazz/classical elitist has the wherewithal to write a 50-page dissertation on why X genre of music is superior to every other form, pontificating on the merits of polymeter, hocketing, invertible counterpoint.... whereas the rap/country guy couldn't be arsed.    

Yeah, like I said it doesn't come across as "snobbery" so much, but it's ultimately the same thing.

[sonatafanica]

"just noise".

As an avid fan of the Noise Music genre, I am gutted by such remarks.

[ariich]

"just noise".

As an avid fan of the Noise Music genre, I am gutted by such remarks.

Pfft, I hate Noise Music. It's just noise.

[Jamesman42]

"just noise".

As an avid fan of the Noise Music genre, I am gutted by such remarks.

There is some great noise music out there.

[sonatafanica]

I know. That's why I listen to it.