Author Topic: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda  (Read 17707 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #175 on: December 03, 2010, 09:16:54 PM »
WW, your example doesn't make any sense.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #176 on: December 03, 2010, 10:44:14 PM »
WW, your example doesn't make any sense.
Why?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #177 on: December 04, 2010, 04:39:36 AM »
Pc your inbox is full.

Bah. Should be fixed now.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #178 on: December 04, 2010, 05:34:59 AM »
WW, your example doesn't make any sense.
Why?
Because it deals with creating something artistic out of something concrete.  It is something tangible, not an idea.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #179 on: December 04, 2010, 06:04:43 PM »
Just to throw a wrench in the mix, what do you think about buying used CD's?  Even if we assume that no one copies it before selling it to a store or individual, aren't you essentially "robbing" the artist of potential earnings on a new album purchase? 

This post has too many mind-blowing implications that it got ignored. But I'd just like to make one observation. When you buy a physical CD, you're allowed to sell it, but things get complicated with copy rights. Can you burn the music onto a new disc and sell that disc? What if you keep the disc for yourself and sell the original CD? Can you give it away? No matter what kind of restrictions you try to enforce, there are going to be loopholes where you can legally multiply the items that contain the same music.

When you buy songs on iTunes, you're stuck with something that you can't sell. This in itself makes no sense. Every person should have the legal right to sell what they purchased, and at whatever price they wish. If the purchasing was through duplication (aka purchasing information), then they can sell through duplication. Obviously this is too extreme to enforce suddenly, but it's where I see we're going because it makes sense.

@ haters: please provide good reasons why purchased physical products shouldn't be treated the same as purchased informational products.

They should. In both cases you should not own the information on the disc, merely the right to use it in a way determined by the owner.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline ack44

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #180 on: December 04, 2010, 07:35:12 PM »
They should. In both cases you should not own the information on the disc, merely the right to use it in a way determined by the owner.

 According to this, when a person buys a song on iTunes, they aren't paying for the information, but instead the right to use that information in a limited context. But obviously you have to copy the information onto your computer to use the information, so you're also paying to copy the information, and in the end you're stuck with something that you don't even own. I see two problems:

1. Consumers don't see themselves as buying rights, they see themselves as buying audio information. If they realized that they are only paying for rights (if this is legally the case) they might not be too happy.

2. What is the incentive for a rational consumer to pay to have rights to use audio information when they can use an entirely different process of copying that same or similar information without having to pay? It seems like the whole process is based on deception.

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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #181 on: December 04, 2010, 11:06:14 PM »
WW, your example doesn't make any sense.
Why?
Because it deals with creating something artistic out of something concrete.  It is something tangible, not an idea.
Well, it's meant to illustrate that turning the object into something more valuable doesn't give you a claim to ownership. It makes perfect sense.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #182 on: December 05, 2010, 06:28:19 AM »
WW, your example doesn't make any sense.
Why?
Because it deals with creating something artistic out of something concrete.  It is something tangible, not an idea.
Well, it's meant to illustrate that turning the object into something more valuable doesn't give you a claim to ownership. It makes perfect sense.
But that's not what songwriting is.  You're not turning something into something more valuable.  You are creating something.  That's why IP makes sense.  If you create something, it's yours, not anyone else's.  Your example is not an example that fits this situation.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline ehra

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #183 on: December 05, 2010, 06:40:49 AM »
Yeah... that example was like me going into someone's house and making breakfast with their food then me trying to say that it's now mine. Of course it's theirs, I made it with their food. But that's not how writing music works.

Offline ack44

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #184 on: December 05, 2010, 06:51:07 AM »
But that's not what songwriting is.  You're not turning something into something more valuable.  You are creating something.  That's why IP makes sense.  If you create something, it's yours, not anyone else's.  Your example is not an example that fits this situation.

I don't believe that humans can create anything. New ideas are based on old ideas, and a new idea can't just pop out of nowhere without that influence. I'd say "turning something into something else" is more accurate than "creating".

I also subscribe to memetic theory which understands all ideas as memes or meme-plexes, which are replicators. In that case, songwriting would essentially be a form of replication (combined with accidents/mutations, if you want to look at it that way).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

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Offline emindead

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #185 on: December 05, 2010, 07:46:33 AM »
But that's not what songwriting is.  You're not turning something into something more valuable.  You are creating something.  That's why IP makes sense.  If you create something, it's yours, not anyone else's.  Your example is not an example that fits this situation.
I don't believe that humans can create anything. New ideas are based on old ideas, and a new idea can't just pop out of nowhere without that influence. I'd say "turning something into something else" is more accurate than "creating".

Quote from: Ecclesiastes 1:9
What was, will be again, what has been done, will be done again, and there is nothing new under the sun!

Quote from: FRANCIS BACON: Essays LVIII: "Of Vicissitude of Things"
Salomon saith, There is no new thing upon the earth. So that as Plato had an imagination, that all knowledge was but remembrance; so Solomon giveth his sentence, That all novelty is but oblivion.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 07:54:46 AM by emindead »

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #186 on: December 05, 2010, 07:49:10 AM »
Someone had to come up with the original ideas that the newer ideas are built on.  Where do they come from, if not from humans?  If they had the ability to create new ideas then, then they still have that ability.  I think it is incredibly difficult to create something truly unique and new that isnt built upon a previous idea, but that doesnt mean the new, or added part, isnt unique and new.
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Offline ack44

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #187 on: December 05, 2010, 03:27:17 PM »
Someone had to come up with the original ideas that the newer ideas are built on.  Where do they come from, if not from humans?  If they had the ability to create new ideas then, then they still have that ability.  I think it is incredibly difficult to create something truly unique and new that isnt built upon a previous idea, but that doesnt mean the new, or added part, isnt unique and new.

 I have no problem with calling new ideas "new" and "unique", but it's obvious that something truly new is impossible. If you're questioning the origins of the ideas, I'd say it's in man's ability to imitate (which is what separates us from animals). Either that or the lizard men gave us civilization.

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Offline emindead

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #188 on: December 05, 2010, 03:34:18 PM »
I thought what separated us from animals were opposable thumbs???

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #189 on: December 05, 2010, 08:01:55 PM »
WW, your example doesn't make any sense.
Why?
Because it deals with creating something artistic out of something concrete.  It is something tangible, not an idea.
Well, it's meant to illustrate that turning the object into something more valuable doesn't give you a claim to ownership. It makes perfect sense.
But that's not what songwriting is.  You're not turning something into something more valuable.  You are creating something.  That's why IP makes sense.  If you create something, it's yours, not anyone else's.  Your example is not an example that fits this situation.
You're missing the point. In the example, the slab of marble is owned property because the owner has a better claim to it than anybody else, not because they turned it into a piece of art. So it applies to music in the same way. A songwriter doesn't have legitimate cause to dictate to consumers, through the use of IP, how they will use what they own, whether that be a CD, book or anything else.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 08:12:14 PM by William Wallace »

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #190 on: December 06, 2010, 12:44:06 PM »
I have no problem with calling new ideas "new" and "unique", but it's obvious that something truly new is impossible. If you're questioning the origins of the ideas, I'd say it's in man's ability to imitate (which is what separates us from animals). Either that or the lizard men gave us civilization.

The creation of mathematics was imitative?

rumborak
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Offline ack44

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #191 on: December 06, 2010, 03:33:36 PM »
I have no problem with calling new ideas "new" and "unique", but it's obvious that something truly new is impossible. If you're questioning the origins of the ideas, I'd say it's in man's ability to imitate (which is what separates us from animals). Either that or the lizard men gave us civilization.

The creation of mathematics was imitative?

rumborak

What do you mean? People had to have been doing mathematical calculations before the concept of mathematics existed. Are you talking about the first mathematical idea or the concept of mathematics itself?


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Offline emindead

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #192 on: December 29, 2010, 03:00:09 PM »
But that's not what songwriting is.  You're not turning something into something more valuable.  You are creating something.  That's why IP makes sense.  If you create something, it's yours, not anyone else's.  Your example is not an example that fits this situation.

I don't believe that humans can create anything. New ideas are based on old ideas, and a new idea can't just pop out of nowhere without that influence. I'd say "turning something into something else" is more accurate than "creating".

I also subscribe to memetic theory which understands all ideas as memes or meme-plexes, which are replicators. In that case, songwriting would essentially be a form of replication (combined with accidents/mutations, if you want to look at it that way).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

Someone had to come up with the original ideas that the newer ideas are built on.  Where do they come from, if not from humans?  If they had the ability to create new ideas then, then they still have that ability.  I think it is incredibly difficult to create something truly unique and new that isnt built upon a previous idea, but that doesnt mean the new, or added part, isnt unique and new.

 I have no problem with calling new ideas "new" and "unique", but it's obvious that something truly new is impossible. If you're questioning the origins of the ideas, I'd say it's in man's ability to imitate (which is what separates us from animals). Either that or the lizard men gave us civilization.

Quote from: Atlas Shrugged
"Genius is a superstition, Jim," said Dr. Ferris slowly, with an odd kind of emphasis, as if knowing that he was naming the unnamed in all their minds. "There's no such thing as the intellect. A man's brain is a social product. A sum of influences that he's picked up from those around him. Nobody invents anything, he merely reflects what's floating in the social atmosphere. A genius is an intellectual scavenger and a greedy hoarder of the ideas which rightfully belong to society, from which he stole them. All thought is theft. If we do away with private fortunes, we'll have a fairer distribution of wealth. If we do away with the genius, we'll have a fairer distribution of ideas."
Lol. And I thought that Ayn Rand was just exaggerating Plato's idea and ridiculing what it seemed to her the so intellectuals of today. When I read this line today I couldn't stop thinking about what you pointed out, ack44. It's amazing that this line of thinking is still around and that somehow it has a somewhat validity. 

Offline ack44

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #193 on: December 29, 2010, 08:26:32 PM »
Quote from: Atlas Shrugged
"Genius is a superstition, Jim," said Dr. Ferris slowly, with an odd kind of emphasis, as if knowing that he was naming the unnamed in all their minds. "There's no such thing as the intellect. A man's brain is a social product. A sum of influences that he's picked up from those around him. Nobody invents anything, he merely reflects what's floating in the social atmosphere. A genius is an intellectual scavenger and a greedy hoarder of the ideas which rightfully belong to society, from which he stole them. All thought is theft. If we do away with private fortunes, we'll have a fairer distribution of wealth. If we do away with the genius, we'll have a fairer distribution of ideas."

 Man's MIND is a social product, not the brain, and Dr. Ferris is only associating "man" with the social mind. The genius is a product of not only the coincidence of the social mind but of the biological brain as well. Sociobiology has already destroyed the idealistic view that we are of purely social construct. No social engineering will "do away with the genius." All thought is theft, but only if imitation is theft. And if imitation is theft then what is creativity if not a crime?

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Offline emindead

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #194 on: April 13, 2011, 09:07:39 PM »
This is from an interview to Hans-Hermann Hoppe

Hoppe:I agree [...] that the idea of intellectual property rights is not just wrong and confused but dangerous. And I have already touched upon why this is so. Ideas — recipes, formulas, statements, arguments, algorithms, theorems, melodies, patterns, rhythms, images, etc. — are certainly goods (insofar as they are good, not bad, recipes, etc.), but they are not scarce goods.

Once thought and expressed, they are free, inexhaustible goods. I whistle a melody or write down a poem, then you hear the melody or read the poem and reproduce or copy it. In doing so you have not taken anything away from me. I can whistle and write as before. In fact, the entire world can copy me, and yet nothing is taken from me. (If I didn't want anyone to copy my ideas I only have to keep them to myself and never express them.)

Now imagine I had been granted a property right in my melody or poem such that I could prohibit you from copying it or demand a royalty from you if you do. First: Doesn't that imply, absurdly, that I, in turn, must pay royalties to the person (or his heirs) who invented whistling and writing, and further on to those, who invented sound making and language, and so on?

Second: In preventing you from or making you pay for whistling my melody or reciting my poem, I am actually made a (partial) owner of you — of your physical body, your vocal chords, your paper, your pencil, etc. — because you did not use anything but your own property when you copied me. If you can no longer copy me, then, this means that I, the intellectual property owner, have expropriated you and your "real" property. Which shows: intellectual property rights and real property rights are incompatible, and the promotion of intellectual property must be seen as a most dangerous attack on the idea of "real" property (in scarce goods).

INTERVIEWER: We have suggested that if people want to enforce generational copyright that they do so on their own, taking on the expense and attempting through various means to confront copyright violators with their own resources. This would put the onus of enforcement on the pocket book of the individual. Is this a viable solution — to let the market itself decide these issues?

HOPPE: That would go a long way in the right direction. Better still: more and more courts in more and more countries, especially countries outside the orbit of the US-dominated, Western-government cartel, would make it clear that they don't hear cases of copyright and patent violations any longer and regard such complaints as a ruse for big Western-government-connected firms, such as pharmaceutical companies, for instance, to enrich themselves at the expense of other people.

Offline ack44

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Re: Is copying a file still theft? Included propaganda
« Reply #195 on: April 14, 2011, 03:26:28 AM »
That last part reminded me of this:

https://www.eatg.org/eatg/Global-HIV-News/Access-to-treatment/Thousands-of-people-with-HIV-protest-India-EU-trade-deal-restricting-access-to-cheap-drugs

The EU is trying to force intellectual property laws in India which would result in an increase in pharmaceutical costs - pissed off people protest.

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