A case for involving JLB more in the songwriting

[rumborak]

Preface: The following might be moot for the next album since the songwriting process will see some amount of shake-up due to Mike's leave.


Wind back to Systematic Chaos. I'm not sure how many of you remember, but MP had a bunch of people show up in NYC to record the yells in POW (I believe Jackie was part of that actually). Shortly after, MP released a small video showing snippets of that day. Obviously, at that point they already had recorded the music, so Mike decided to use the instrumental track of POW as the intro music for that video. I remember watching the video and thinking "Sweeeeet, this sounds really cool." However, when I heard the final track on SC, it had gone down to mere "meh" level, because of the vocals on top.

Next album, BCSL. I got the extended version, i.e. the one with the instrumental CD, and one day I popped in the CD ... and was blown away by the music. Honestly, there was barely any weak moment when listened to the album just as an instrumental. With the vocals on top, suddenly there's quite a few weak spots, and sometimes (albeit luckily rarely) outright laughable.

I don't think this is James' fault. If I had to venture a guess, I think it's because the singer so far sat in Canada while all the songs were written by two instrumentalists, and then lyrics were slapped on top the existing music. So, the music itself had undergone a good number of iterations before becoming the final product, but the vocals then had to be somehow married to the music. MP's growls are another example of this.

Thoughts? Disagreements?

rumborak

[Bertielee]

I think you're right, Rumby. In the last few albums, I've felt JLB as being more a hired gun than a "real" singer in the band. Maybe they should try and write the tracks as a whole band, all together, that is, let JLB create his own melodies, even write lyrics (I know he's done it already, but you know what I mean), so that everybody can have their say.

B.Lee

[Plasmastrike]

I totally follow your train of thought, but I just have to throw this out there. Isn't that how they wrote numerous classics back in the day? I&W tracks?

[ariich]

JLB was present for the writing of SC if I remember rightly, and indeed wrote the lyrics and vocal melodies to PoW.

With BC&SL he didn't really contribute, which I think is a shame, but then again I much prefer it to SC.

[skydivingninja]

JLB was present for the writing of SC if I remember rightly, and indeed wrote the lyrics and vocal melodies to PoW.

With BC&SL he didn't really contribute, which I think is a shame, but then again I much prefer it to SC.

Yup.  As I said in the "what do you think will happen on the next DT album" thread, I think SI's positive reviews will maybe build up James' creative confidence and get some more of those juices into DT's music.  Y'know, as long as the lyrics aren't as bad as PoW.

[Bertielee]

JLB was present for the writing of SC if I remember rightly, and indeed wrote the lyrics and vocal melodies to PoW.

I get what you mean, but even  if present, did he "write" his melodies or simply sing what he was told to sing? There's a big difference.

B.Lee

[Vivace]

I think keeping James out of the songwriting process is a HUGE disservice to the final output.

[erik16]

Actually I think that the vocals on SC are better than on BCSL. For example Forsaken and ITPOE part 2 Angels fall part. Also Prophets of Wat.

[rumborak]

JLB was present for the writing of SC if I remember rightly, and indeed wrote the lyrics and vocal melodies to PoW.

Two comments on that:
1) I doubt James was present during the writing of the music, as he's never been part of the "writing nucleus" that is JP, MP and JR. So, if he was actually part of the writing (see point 2), he probably entered at the time the music was written already, just the vocal lines were missing. Which is still the same result of "patched-on vocals".
2) With all the stuff going down lately I have started to question any of the "happy, involved family" statements that we've heard over the years. We heard them during the FII years before Derek got canned and Mike almost quit, we heard it during SDOIT when James was almost canned, and we heard it essentially a few days before MP quit the band. So, the statement that James was present at the writing sessions might simply have been pandering to the masses who wanted to see such a thing. I for one have never seen a single video in which James was in the same room in which music was written.

rumborak

[jsem]

I think keeping James out of the songwriting process is a HUGE disservice to the final output.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I have spent many a minute wondering why I don't like Dream Theater as much as I used to.

Honestly, it's probably just because I don't. Not everything requires a an explanation.

But if I had to put a finger on something, I would put it on the vocals. Like you said, Rumbs, the music is as good as ever. But the vocals are booooooring. Usually you can count on a catchy chorus, but the verses sound like they're there only because they have to be.

[Kyo]

1) I doubt James was present during the writing of the music, as he's never been part of the "writing nucleus" that is JP, MP and JR. So, if he was actually part of the writing (see point 2), he probably entered at the time the music was written already, just the vocal lines were missing. Which is still the same result of "patched-on vocals".

In the new Voices interview Mike says that James was present when they wrote Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, but in the end they wrote 99.9% of the music without his influence anyway.

It would be interesting to know how much of the music on Static Impulse he actually contributed.

[rumborak]

Well, I always said that James sounded a lot better on his solo efforts than on DT albums, probably because he actually had a say in what he was singing.

rumborak

[Setlist Scotty]

I for one have never seen a single video in which James was in the same room in which music was written.

Take a look at the band photos in the SC jacket artwork (and the studio spread in the Chaos in Motion tourbook) - he's in the same studio with the rest of the band.

[Fiery Winds]

1) I doubt James was present during the writing of the music, as he's never been part of the "writing nucleus" that is JP, MP and JR. So, if he was actually part of the writing (see point 2), he probably entered at the time the music was written already, just the vocal lines were missing. Which is still the same result of "patched-on vocals".

In the new Voices interview Mike says that James was present when they wrote Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, but in the end they wrote 99.9% of the music without his influence anyway.

It would be interesting to know how much of the music on Static Impulse he actually contributed.

In the Used Bin radio interview with CJS, he said that over a period of a year, him and Matt would send audio files back and forth with riff ideas, melody ideas, etc. and collaborate until they had the basics of the album put together.  https://www.dreamtheater.net/news_labrie.php#usedbinradio
It's at about the 49 minute mark.

[ariich]

JLB was present for the writing of SC if I remember rightly, and indeed wrote the lyrics and vocal melodies to PoW.

I get what you mean, but even  if present, did he "write" his melodies or simply sing what he was told to sing? There's a big difference.

B.Lee

DT's process these days is pretty much centred around the band writing the backing music (which for SC I believe included Labrie, although as Rumbo says it's possible that he only joined at the latter stages... but then again, in the documentary stuff and interviews at the time, he talked a lot about how much he enjoyed the recording of SC and I think a lot of it was due to him having more involvement in the writing than usual. But I digress...) and the lyricist for each song writing both the words and the vocal melodies. So I would assume that JLB would have written the melodies for that song but not the rest.

[atmyne]

I really, REALLY enjoy listening to Static Impulse as well as Elements of persuasion. I wish, and hope on the next album, that James would bring that enthusiasm and inspiration to DT

[Kyo]

In the Used Bin radio interview with CJS, he said that over a period of a year, him and Matt would send audio files back and forth with riff ideas, melody ideas, etc. and collaborate until they had the basics of the album put together.  https://www.dreamtheater.net/news_labrie.php#usedbinradio
It's at about the 49 minute mark.

I know, but that's still quite vague and wouldn't rule out Matt writing a vast majority of the actual music.

[Mladen]

Actually I think that the vocals on SC are better than on BCSL. For example Forsaken and ITPOE part 2 Angels fall part. Also Prophets of War.

Good point.

[Bertielee]

In the Used Bin radio interview with CJS, he said that over a period of a year, him and Matt would send audio files back and forth with riff ideas, melody ideas, etc. and collaborate until they had the basics of the album put together.  https://www.dreamtheater.net/news_labrie.php#usedbinradio
It's at about the 49 minute mark.

I know, but that's still quite vague and wouldn't rule out Matt writing a vast majority of the actual music.

So, just go and read the Q&A with JLB. It was 50 / 50.

B.Lee

PS : I just don't know why some people think JLB is quite unable to have ideas how to think some music for his tracks.

[OsMosis2259]

Was James really almost canned in 2002?

I did not know that... What was the reason?

Otherwise there were many videos that I remember Jordan posted during the making of BC&SL and I remember James wasn't in any of them. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddaXgjsXI4

I think in the making of SC DVD, James was only there to do the vocals... 

[glaurung]

Was James really almost canned in 2002?

I did not know that... What was the reason?

He was given an ultimatum to improve his live performance and to contribute more in studio.

[abydos]

Same thing happened to me with AROP - I can't really stand much the album version but the instrumental is sick.

It's funny that 2002 incident - when I saw them live then on the SDOIT tour James was amazing. Maybe because he had a couple of days off before the show, but still - his performance was superb.

[ariich]

Yeah he was very hit and miss that tour. From hearing a number of different bootlegs from it, some nights he was great and others he was really bad.

[Vivace]

It would be interesting to know how much of the music on Static Impulse he actually contributed.

I'm curious about that too. I've always wondered why MG and JLB decided to go from Mullmuzzler to just James Labrie. Isn't MG a huge part of this project as well?

[Adami]

It would be interesting to know how much of the music on Static Impulse he actually contributed.

I'm curious about that too. I've always wondered why MG and JLB decided to go from Mullmuzzler to just James Labrie. Isn't MG a huge part of this project as well?

Pretty sure the name change was just business stuff. I doubt it had anything to do with a change in the writing.

[Perpetual Change]

I think James always wanted to call it James LaBrie, but the label wouldn't let him use his name until EoP.

Was James really almost canned in 2002?

I did not know that... What was the reason?

Otherwise there were many videos that I remember Jordan posted during the making of BC&SL and I remember James wasn't in any of them. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddaXgjsXI4

I think in the making of SC DVD, James was only there to do the vocals... 

James was almost canned, and he was told there was no need to come down to help with the BC&SL writing session after a couple weeks in. He seems to have had taken almost being canned as a chance to seriously reflect on himself, but he expressed some disappointment about not being invited in on the writing with Black Clouds.

[rumborak]

Yeah, he said that in an interview recently.

rumborak

[ZirconBlue]

I think James always wanted to call it James LaBrie, but the label wouldn't let him use his name until EoP.

Kinda the opposite, actually.  The move to going under the name "James LaBrie" was purely based on business considerations, capitalizing on name recognition from DT.  This actually started in the Magna Carta days;  the second MullMuzzler disc is actually under the name "James LaBrie's MullMuzzler".  And James has stressed multiple times that this is a band, not just his solo gig, and that he's only using the "James LaBrie" name because it's more recognizable.

[MemoryScenes]

I think James always wanted to call it James LaBrie, but the label wouldn't let him use his name until EoP.

Was James really almost canned in 2002?

I did not know that... What was the reason?

Otherwise there were many videos that I remember Jordan posted during the making of BC&SL and I remember James wasn't in any of them. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ddaXgjsXI4

I think in the making of SC DVD, James was only there to do the vocals... 

James was almost canned, and he was told there was no need to come down to help with the BC&SL writing session after a couple weeks in. He seems to have had taken almost being canned as a chance to seriously reflect on himself, but he expressed some disappointment about not being invited in on the writing with Black Clouds.

Yeah, no doubt James was asked to shape up or ship out. Prolly not just an MP thing either. I kept watching the Bucharest dvd, and wondering, because I thought he sounded waaaay better than on the (at the time recent) Chaos in Motion tour... but just recently I got the 2002-03-27 Beacon Theater show from dime, and wow, I can see what the band was thinking. I almost forgot James went into a period where he didn't even try his best. He has made a lot of progress though, and I'm glad he's coming off of a good tour vocally.

Hopefully James will help fill the gap, and begin to contribute more than 'the occasional odd lyric or melody' .. I thought his contributions (along with Myung's) helped define the sound for SFAM. I'm not sure the band has been as fully collaborative since.

[Ħ]

It would be interesting to have a couple songs that were engineered by JLB to experiment with the idea, but I really don't see anything wrong with them continuing what they've been doing.

[atmyne]

DT needs moar Myung lyrics, Labrie melodies and proggy Rudess

[Adami]

DT needs moar Myung lyrics, Labrie melodies and proggy Rudess

As long as proggy Rudess doesn't mean shreddy or goofy Rudess.

[pogoowner]

DT needs moar Myung lyrics, Labrie melodies and proggy Rudess

As long as proggy Rudess doesn't mean shreddy or goofy Rudess.

Indeed. No more circus music moments, please.

[lithium112]

Indeed. No more circus music moments, please.

Ok, I gotta ask - my friend has always said that there's some sort of circus music bit in Octavarium. Is this what you're talking about and, if so, what part is that? I've never known...