Wow, someone in DT was listening to Rainbow!

[SnakeEyes]

Just watch the video and you'll see.

edit:  or, at least watching their videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXZnQ9jj7U

[Aniland]

Uhm...

[SnakeEyes]

Uhm, what?

[yeshaberto]

never seen the video before....cool video for a classic song

[YtseJam]

lol

[SnakeEyes]

I don't understand what the, "lol" about.  Did you people not watch the video?

[Ice9ine]

Apart from the hynotherapist bit and the keyboardist looking like the guy from the movie the Warriors, I dont get it.

[Algo Fonix]

Those are some boss glasses the therapist is wearing.

I just don't understand, though.

[tri.ad]

Huge stretch.

[wolfking]

I've always loved this song, top 3 Rainbow song easily.  JLT sounds amazing as usual.  Underrated melodic hard rock.

[Lowdz]

The more Rainbow the better!
I would've loved to have seen DT do Rising as a classic album night. A Light in The Black would be awesome with JP and JR!
Stargazer was fantastic.

[rumborak]

You know, might as well open a tasty can of worms in this thread:

I have to say that exploring old prog has had a directly adverse effect on my appreciation of DT. I don't know, you could of course say that I was naive going into DT, since I assumed that 100% of their ideas came from their own pen. But there's just been so many occasion where years down the road I learned that this awesome riff I always loved was just taken (albeit slightly modified) from some other band's song. Home, Trial of Tears, the ending of Octavarium...

rumborak

[TAC]

The more Rainbow the better!
I would've loved to have seen DT do Rising as a classic album night. A Light in The Black would be awesome with JP and JR!
Stargazer was fantastic.

Absolutely NO questrion!

You know, might as well open a tasty can of worms in this thread:

I have to say that exploring old prog has had a directly adverse effect on my appreciation of DT. I don't know, you could of course say that I was naive going into DT, since I assumed that 100% of their ideas came from their own pen. But there's just been so many occasion where years down the road I learned that this awesome riff I always loved was just taken (albeit slightly modified) from some other band's song. Home, Trial of Tears, the ending of Octavarium...

rumborak

It's had the exact opposite for me. It's made me appriciate old prog more, and that with a metral slant, I really dig!

[Scrub206]

Those are some boss glasses the therapist is wearing.

I just don't understand, though.

....HA

[King Postwhore]

TAC is dead on.  All bands have had their influneces somehow make it into their music consciously or unconsciously.

[Tick]

I feel dumb because I just can't wrap my brain around too much stuff posted around here? I have no clue what this thread is supposed to signify?

[King Postwhore]

The Street Of Dreams video and concept = SFAM.

[rumborak]

I dunno, I find that a somewhat disingenuous argument. I listen to a lot of bands, many of whom I know (at least to some degree) their influences of. Only Dream Theater goes to the extent of directly taking a riff from another band's song, modifying it slightly and plugging it into their own song.
I mean, if they had put somewhere into the album liner that Trial of Tears contains an hommage to UK's "In the dead of night", that would have been different. Finding out about it years later by accident just gave it a bitter aftertaste.

rumborak

[jsem]

Rainbow = 

Rising has got to be in the top 3 hard rock albums ever, this song isn't bad either - but Dio is missing from it

[LudwigVan]

I had posted this Rainbow vid a while ago, but I think it's obvious DT listened closely to Rainbow - Gates Of Babylon.  The wanky Octavarium-like keyboard opening into a Home-like middle-eastern epic riff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu8HiZepRWo


I've always thought that DT's template came from Deep Purple's 5-piece setup (and by extension, Rainbow's as well).   It's no small wonder that DT covered all of Made In Japan and Rainbow's Stargazer.  

[SnakeEyes]

I wasn't saying that the MUSIC was similar, just that the concept for the video is similar to SFAM.  Both are awesome, though. 

[Setlist Scotty]

I mean, if they had put somewhere into the album liner that Trial of Tears contains an hommage to UK's "In the dead of night", that would have been different. Finding out about it years later by accident just gave it a bitter aftertaste.

Funny - i've heard both and never put a connection between them. Care to post the time stamps where they are the same?

As for the rip-off factor that you are essentially bringing up - it can be a bit of a turn off. But the question of whether they literally ripped off a riff/musical passage or just were heavily influenced is a difficult thing to conclude. For instance, the beginning of Endless Sacrifice is obviously DT's version of the intro to Metallica's Sanitarium. Does that bother me? No. Ironically enough, Metallica copped a riff from Rush's Tom Sawyer for Sanitarium, but no one ever takes issue with it (that I've seen). Supposedly Rush constructed Tom Sawyer in a similar manner to the Journey track Nickel and Dime (tho I don't hear it). And no one takes issue with Carry On My Wayward Son from Kansas which is a complete rip-off of the early Journey track I'm Gonna Leave You. Take it even further back, look at how many of Led Zeppelin's "own" songs are actually glorified covers, and yet there's no reference to the original whatsoever. And I'm sure you can go on youtube and type in <insert band name> and rip-off and find out that they have borrowed, stolen, whatever a song, riff, musical interlude, etc. Here's a couple I came up in just a couple minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt9Zpu98wqA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuzaaGiNjy0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoyEVTN_h9I&feature=related
and a whole series called "Metal That Sounds Like Other Metal" - here's the 3rd volume of 23:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftsL8hTFIkM&feature=related

So if that is gonna cause you to lose appreciation for DT, better consider not listening to music, because there are many other bands and artists who are doing the same thing, if not worse!

[rumborak]

Funny - i've heard both and never put a connection between them. Care to post the time stamps where they are the same?

Whoa, are you serious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDnNGskWUY (2:58-4:20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR004WVV3LE (6:16-7:40)

EDIT: Just listened to your example videos. None even come close to the DT thing IMHO, other than the Satriani/Coldplay one. One video was even just out of ignorance of how guitar playing works.

rumborak

[Setlist Scotty]

Oh please - dude, you're being ignorant if you mean to tell me that none of them save the Coldplay/Satch one aren't the same as to what you're saying. With regards to the In the Dead of Night (admittedly, it's been a long time since I've heard the track) vs. Trial of Tears, there's no doubt where DT got their influence from for the middle section of the song, but flat out ripping them off and modifying them just enough so that they wouldn't get nailed for plagiarism? Not a chance.

[jsem]

It's not exactly ripped off, but you def. see the influence.

I mean, look at This
Same thing.

[SnakeEyes]

To everyone:

Allow me to apologize.  I'm glad that the discussion is staying civil and I hope this thread doesn't get locked, but it was never, ever my intention to imply that DT, "ripped off" anyone.  I posted this video because I just thought it was interesting. 

A guy gets hypnotized and the hypnotherapist ends up being bad in the end. 

I just thought that was kind of a cool similarity to SFAM.  I never seriously meant that DT ripped that idea off from Rainbow.  So, continue the discussion if you will, but as long as my intentions were clear. 

[RaiseTheKnife]

DT did a live cover of "In the Dead of Night" at Ronnie Scott's in '95 (available on the "Uncovered" boot).  So it was certainly an influence when they began writing tracks for FII the following year.  I see it as more of a paying homage than a ripping off. 

I recall a gutiar magazine interview in '98 where JP credits the Trial of Tears solo as being very Holdsworth influenced.

During the writing process, DT even names their riffs for similarities of what they sound like (i.e. the "Meshugah" riff on This Dying Soul).  They intentionally want to blend different recognizable styles into their songs.  Its what makes their songs especially special.

[rumborak]

Oh please - dude, you're being ignorant if you mean to tell me that none of them save the Coldplay/Satch one aren't the same as to what you're saying.

I'm saying that for example the video you posted with the "most copied metal riff" was made by someone who has apparently never played guitar.
I'm not saying DT is the only band that rips off. I just find DT's "copying" very blatant, much more blatant than IMHO necessary.

I mean, for example, say JP wants to play a Holdsworth-style guitar solo. Nothing wrong with that, it's a distinct style of guitar playing. Why choose the same bassline in the back, with virtually identical chord progressions? That choice is where, in my opinion, hommage crosses over into rip-off.

rumborak

[SnakeEyes]

I don't have a problem with chord progressions.  I mean, that's like saying Beethoven, "ripped off" Mozart for using a I-IV-V progression.  A chord progression isn't a song, but rather a melody is the song. 

[Orbert]

I mean, for example, say JP wants to play a Holdsworth-style guitar solo. Nothing wrong with that, it's a distinct style of guitar playing. Why choose the same bassline in the back, with virtually identical chord progressions? That choice is where, in my opinion, hommage crosses over into rip-off.

I know this exact comparison has come up before, but really, you make it sound like they're exactly the same, and they're just not.  Same feel, same guitar sound, but different chords and rhythm, and the bass line is similar but not the exact same.  It's an homage maybe, but not a ripoff.  I just consider it more of DT wearing their influences on their sleeves.

[Perpetual Change]

Funny - i've heard both and never put a connection between them. Care to post the time stamps where they are the same?

Whoa, are you serious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDnNGskWUY (2:58-4:20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR004WVV3LE (6:16-7:40

Dude, you've brought the Trial of Tears example up before, and no-one really agree with you then, so why bring it up now and act all surprised that people still don't agree?

Anyway, I agree with this:

It's had the exact opposite for me. It's made me appriciate old prog more, and that with a metral slant, I really dig!

It probably stems from the fact that I rarely ever let myself think the artists I'm listening to 'completely original' anymore.

[Adami]

No one agreed on the ToT thing?

I do!

It's not a direct rip off, but it's DAMN similar.

[KevShmev]

I agree that the beginning of "Endless Sacrifice" sounds like their homage to Metallica's "Sanitarium," but it also sounds directly lifted from the Michael Jackson song "Give in to Me."  I mean, how can you listen to this and not hear it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNQqpJej368

In the case of plagiarism or whatever you want to call it, there is definitely a big difference between sounding like an influence and doing riffs or melodies that sound a lot like those heard in songs by bands you are open about being influences.  DT veers into the latter part of that way too often, much more than most other bands.  No, they are not the first band to do that, and they won't be the last, but they have been doing it pretty frequently for quite a while now.

Also, that Rainbow song is great!  I was always a fan of that song and video growing up.

[Algo Fonix]

No one agreed on the ToT thing?

I do!

It's not a direct rip off, but it's DAMN similar.

You can definitely tell ToT was inspired by it.

[Setlist Scotty]

I agree that the beginning of "Endless Sacrifice" sounds like their homage to Metallica's "Sanitarium," but it also sounds directly lifted from the Michael Jackson song "Give in to Me." 

I knew this would be brought up, but I'm pretty confident that it was purely coincidence that it's the same - I can't imagine any of the guys intentionally saying "hey, there's this cool riff in an MJ song that we should incorporate into our song!" I honestly don't believe any of the guys listens to much of MJ, if any at all. And on the chance occurrence that one of them did hear that song, they probably recalled it subconciously, not realizing that it was from an MJ song instead of being an original idea.