Author Topic: Biblical Historicity  (Read 19346 times)

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Offline Adami

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2010, 10:39:09 PM »
So, say I consciously take the blame for somebody else's heinous murder, and end up getting life in jail for it. But, I go in, knowing that my big buddy will get me out in three days anyway. Did I sacrifice anything?

Also, there was a lot of physical torture going on with Jesus.

Well we know there was at least some. We don't know how much.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2010, 10:45:37 PM »
Rumby, that really is a good question.  The problem is we are talking about the historicity of the resurrection, not the theology behind it.  We aren't seeking to know why as we are trying to figure out what actually happened.  Once we get an answer to what happened, we can start pondering why things happened the way they did.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2010, 12:25:21 AM »
If I may to speak about rising from the dead it is next to impossible to really prove given that A) It's impossible as far as we know the action B) not many people were witness to seeing Christ after he died. The 12 apostles saw him and even one of them was in the same boat as most people who don't believe that is he wanted pure scientific imperical evidence to back it up. He wanted to see Christ, touch Christ, etc. But to still believe in the resurrection story cannot ultimately come from research it HAS to come through faith. The Bible in itself is a book about God spoken through the human condition using examples from history and experiences from people who encountered God that we (well The Church) felt were geniune experiences. I don't think I ever heard of the resurrection stories getting tacked on later. Luke's Gospel has the biggest section of the resurrection story and historians are convinced Luke wrote all of it and The Acts of the Apostles immediately afterwards. So I would need a source to this claim to read where they are coming from since from what I know of the history of the Bible is that, the letters of Paul come first, written around 40AD. The Gospels come later around 70AD with John being last who also wrote The Book of Revelations.

When it comes to what happened external around Christ, all of this is backed up through historical evidence. We are very familiar with what was happening, who were the major characters, political parties, situations, etc. What we don't have are documents that back up the Gospels, which in my mind would have been a bit strange if we did. This would be like finding a library of files about some random group of fisherman during The Anglo-Saxon war which someone would have to have written. So in reading Paul, if he tacked anything on it would be added human experiences from his perspective, much the same as an eyewitness might talk about an event from a matter of perspective. The Gospels are in the same boat. Again, different authors, two using outside source material we have still yet to find called Q, who simply wrote these books again bringing their experiences into the pages and also writing based on their own disciplinary style: Matthew writing as a teacher, Luke writing to a friend as if recounting events from a journal, John writing in a very stylistic prose that is miles ahead of the other three, obviously better educated in the art of writing.

What actually happened is written in these Gospels and the Letters. Whether you believe these people or not is a matter of faith. I seriously doubt that history can prove that Jesus did not walk on water or cure the sick, etc. All you have to back up these stories are the testimony of rather poor fisherman who have no political power whatsoever. Why it happened I don't think history can answer either.
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2010, 07:51:17 AM »
So, say I consciously take the blame for somebody else's heinous murder, and end up getting life in jail for it. But, I go in, knowing that my big buddy will get me out in three days anyway. Did I sacrifice anything?

Also, there was a lot of physical torture going on with Jesus.

Well we know there was at least some. We don't know how much.

you sacrificed 3 days worth of punishment.

When you've got God punishing you it's gonna be pretty painful. Also for the sake of the metaphor you started of being beaten then mocked then scourged (by this point most people are already dead) then you go to Jail and to make sure you're in there good and tight they cuff you to your door, then they move you to solitary and on your third day you break out yourself.

Also the difference between you and Jesus is that he never did anything wrong by any law. You cannot truthfully tell anyone that you have not commited any thing that is punishable under the Jewish Law.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2010, 08:01:04 AM »
I don't think I ever heard of the resurrection stories getting tacked on later.

I don't think that's particularly surprising really. I myself was an altar boy for years, and in none of the sermons was it ever touched that Luke and Matthew don't agree on when Jesus was born.
I mean, obviously no church will seed discord amongst their followers by pointing out sticky issues with the source material.

Quote
What actually happened is written in these Gospels and the Letters. Whether you believe these people or not is a matter of faith. I seriously doubt that history can prove that Jesus did not walk on water or cure the sick, etc. All you have to back up these stories are the testimony of rather poor fisherman who have no political power whatsoever. Why it happened I don't think history can answer either.

Here's the thing: I would agree with your argument if all we had was one single source copy of the NT. Then, essentially, everything would either have to be taken at face value, or none at all.
However, that is not the case. There are thousands of manuscripts, and the differences between them give enormous insight into what was the most likely source material, and what parts have veru likely been added. as Ehrmann says, there are more differences in the manuscripts than there are words in the NT. For sure, the majority of those differences are simple spelling differences, but there are many that can't just be brushed away leisurely.
And it's not that we don't have objective measures either. There are very strong guiding principles by which one can infer facts from the manuscripts. For example, there is the principle that no copyist would create a copy of a gospel that would make the object of his copying (Jesus) look worse than the version he has in front of him for copying. From that standpoint, what possible explanation could there be that the oldest manuscripts we have don't include the resurrection part? It would make no sense whatsoever for someone to sit down for hours on end to copy a gospel, but then leave out a whole section from the version he's copying from.
The conclusion is obvious: The resurrection part was added by someone who wanted to improve on the gospel. Maybe he thought the ending was too abrupt, or lacked punch for someone like the son of God to just disappear.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2010, 08:04:40 AM »
you sacrificed 3 days worth of punishment.

When you've got God punishing you it's gonna be pretty painful.

Jesus was painfully punished by God during the 3 days he was dead? That is new to me, I would like to see any kind of reference for that.

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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2010, 09:43:48 AM »

The conclusion is obvious: The resurrection part was added by someone who wanted to improve on the gospel. Maybe he thought the ending was too abrupt, or lacked punch for someone like the son of God to just disappear.

rumborak


I'm sorry but I don't agree. I have never heard any historian mention Luke written by two people so I really need a source or citation for this in order to understand where the person is coming from. The current status on the Gospel of Luke is that most people believe it was written by the Companion of Paul, however there are scholars who believe the author is unknown and will never be known however regardless of this revelation I haven't come across the idea from scholars that Luke was spliced and that other elements were added to the text. In fact I have a rather detailed Bible in front of me that gives excellent accounts of historical information as well as commentary and there is nothing in this book (published recently) that indicates that any of the resurrection stories were "added" at a later date. It also wouldn't make sense that the resurrection stories werenot part of the "oral tradition" as the resurrection story is the vital link to it all. Without it we might as well be Muslim or Jewish. The resurrection is a crux of the faith. If that was not part of the original oral tradition then it doesn't make sense why anyone would just go ahead and add that later on and on top of that make sure that the other two did the same. If the resurrection stories were tacked on then they tacked on all three so are we saying that the same scribe wrote all three or that three different scribes did the same thing? Sorry but I really think that's far fetched and something that would be clearly documented and easy to find.

Also when it comes to sermons please understand that one priest is the whole voice of the Church. Every priest is going to be different, have a different approach when it comes to the homily. Some spend their time joking and telling stories, others will preach as if it's 1455, while quite a few will actually introduce you to ideas and expressions of the text and even supply some history, and textual information. I have heard many homilies where the mention the nativity stories of Matthew and Luke and how they do not match. They cite scholars from as far back as 1100 who touch upon this and have incredible things to say about it. Also any priest out there who denies the Bible has inconsistancies isn't paying attention. Of course the Bible is inconsistant, it's a collection of stories from different people, from different eras, trying to teach you something about the human condition and through these expressions and experiences teach you something of the Divine Word. These inconsistanties do NOT invalidate the Word of God given the you must separate the Word of God from the human word. The human word is of opinion while the Word of God is of truth. (This last sentance is a matter of faith. If you don't believe in it, fine. I'm not pushing this on anyone) So I'm always trying to wonder why a person will openly state the Bible is inconsistant and riduculous when you are supposed to dig into the text to find the Word of God. I cannot stress more on reading books from Saints like Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, or Saint John of the Cross. The Saints do a much much better job of opening the Bible and some even provide excellent historical basis and fact.   :smiley:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:03:56 AM by Vivace »
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2010, 09:45:11 AM »
you sacrificed 3 days worth of punishment.

When you've got God punishing you it's gonna be pretty painful.

Jesus was painfully punished by God during the 3 days he was dead? That is new to me, I would like to see any kind of reference for that.

rumborak


Me as well. Since when did God ever punish Christ? I would love to read this source.  ;)
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2010, 09:48:11 AM »
rumby, you keep saying that the resurrection wasn't included in the earliest copies, but I think you are misrepresenting the concept.  There was no depiction of a resurrected Jesus in the earliest manuscripts of Mark, but it is clear that he is depicting that Jesus was resurrected.  And accounts of the resurrected Jesus (such as they are) were always present in the text of Matthew, Luke, John, and other noncanonical gospels.

So the concept of Jesus being resurrected was present as far back as we can historically show.  If we go back further than Mark, to the sayings gospel Q, we see a document that may or may not have included a passion/resurrection sequence, but whether it did or not, it remains a hypothetical construct (although one which I believe existed).
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2010, 10:23:13 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't agree. I have never heard any historian mention Luke written by two people so I really need a source or citation for this in order to understand where the person is coming from.

I'm not saying that Mark was written by two people in the sense you are portraying it right there. I am saying there was an original version of Mark, and somebody, not Mark, added the resurrection part.

A web page I just dug up quickly:

https://www.christiancadre.org/member_contrib/Mark_Ending.html

Quote
Almost all scholars, whether conservative or liberal, agree that the ending of Mark common to modern English versions -- Mark 16:9-20 -- was not a part of the original text. The reason for such a strong consensus is twofold.

The first is that the oldest manuscripts lack verses 9-20. As Donald Guthrie, notes:

    The two Alexandrian Unical Mss, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus" end at 16:8. New Testament Introduction, at 90. Additionally, early Christian writers noted that the ending was not in their earliest manuscripts. "Jerome and Eusebius both state that the best manuscripts available to them did not contain this longer ending.

Douglass Moo, An Introduction to the New Testament, page 103. Given the lack of early manuscript evidence, it is very unlikely that these verses were original to the text.

The second reason, is that there are significant linguistic and stylistic differences between 9-20 and the rest of Mark. "The longer ending contains several non-Markan words and expressions." Moo, op. cit., page 103.

As a result of these two facts, "[t]oday it is generally recognized that the report of the Resurrection and Ascension (16:9-20) found in the majority of the manuscripts and versions was not a part of the original Mark." W.G. Kummel, Introduction to the New Testament, page 71. Where then, did the modern ending of Mark come from? Most likely later scribes added endings based on how they "knew" the story ended by relying on Matthew, Luke, and, perhaps, John.

So, somebody down the road decided to fluff up Mark to correspond to what his/her impression of the "real" ending was.

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Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2010, 10:26:19 AM »
Wait, people didn't know that already?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2010, 10:34:07 AM »
Rumby, I think you and Vivace are sort of talking past each other on this issue.  Yes, the account of the actual post-resurrection sightings may not have been in the original manuscript.  You are correct on that issue.  That is not only common knowledge, but is reflected in virtually every reliable modern translation (usually either by having a footnote appear in verse 8, having the text of verses 9-16 offset, or having the text of 9-16 appear solely in a footnote).  So in that sense, you are correct.

I'm not sure whether you were saying the resurrection itself wasn't included, which is I think how Vivace and hef understood your post.  If so, you overstated your point.  Even if the above does prove the post-resurrection sightings in 16:9-16 were not included in the original text, there is plenty about the resurrection that is there.  Jesus makes several predictions about it in earlier chapters.  And then we have this in 16:1-8:

Quote
1(A) (B) When the Sabbath was past,(C) Mary Magdalene and(D) Mary the mother of James and(E) Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. 3And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away(F) the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?" 4And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back—(G) it was very large. 5And(H) entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side,(I) dressed in(J) a white robe, and(K) they were alarmed. 6And he said to them,(L) "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter that(M) he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you." 8And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2010, 11:06:03 AM »
Well, the problem I have with those kind of passages now is, if a scribe is willing to patch on a whole section of formerly non-existent text, I am sure he/she will have had no qualms about modifying previous text too to make it gel better with the new section.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2010, 11:10:02 AM »
In the abstract, perhaps you are correct.  But in this specific instance, manuscripts that have 16:1-8 and not 16:9-16 intact as quoted above date much earlier than the manuscripts that do contain 16:9-16.  So there's no reason to assume 1-8 were modified (unless you are saying the same scribe that you think later patched on 9-16 then went back in time and fixed up 1-8 [as well as mentions earlier in the book of a resurrection] so that they would fit his later addition).
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2010, 11:58:08 AM »
In the abstract, perhaps you are correct.  But in this specific instance, manuscripts that have 16:1-8 and not 16:9-16 intact as quoted above date much earlier than the manuscripts that do contain 16:9-16.  So there's no reason to assume 1-8 were modified (unless you are saying the same scribe that you think later patched on 9-16 then went back in time and fixed up 1-8 [as well as mentions earlier in the book of a resurrection] so that they would fit his later addition).

I'm not saying 16:1-8 were inventions, but the passage in question:

Quote
But go, tell his disciples, especially Peter, that he goes before you into Galilee: there you shall see him, as he said to you.

can have many interpretation, including the "mundane" interpretation "Jesus will be with you spiritually on your journey to Galilee, and you will communicate with him (through visions) when you are there".
The later scribe then decided to "flesh out" this section with a more literal interpretation of that passage.

I mean, what is your theory that fits the fact that 16:9-16 didn't exist in the oldest manuscripts and are of distinctly non-Markian writing style?

rumborak
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 12:03:45 PM by rumborak »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2010, 12:20:07 PM »
I mean, what is your theory that fits the fact that 16:9-16 didn't exist in the oldest manuscripts and are of distinctly non-Markian writing style?

I don't have one.  I'm not arguing that it necessary does or does not belong there.  I don't think the evidence for or against it is as clear-cut as some make it out to be, but ultimately, I don't think it matters much since there really isn't anything in that one particular passage that we don't get elsewhere in other texts (including earlier passages of Mark).
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2010, 12:28:03 PM »
I see what you're saying, and I would agree that it is up to one's choice to decide the magnitude of these changes.

I think what this whole discussion showed though that one can not just make blanket statements about the Bible's historicity. Some are clearly correct, some are clearly not historical at all.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2010, 12:41:42 PM »
I see what you're saying, and I would agree that it is up to one's choice to decide the magnitude of these changes.

I think what this whole discussion showed though that one can not just make blanket statements about the Bible's historicity. Some are clearly correct, some are clearly not historical at all.

rumborak


Yeah, I understand where you're coming from.  There is clearly room for a lot of debate.  But that is true of any other document as well.  I mean, there are plenty of well-reasoned, scholarly arguments why a lot of things Tacitus recorded may be fabrications or at least unreliable because of bias.  But that doesn't mean his writings don't have immense historical value.  I realize it is much easier to write off religious texts when approaching them from a secular perspective.  But even if one views the religious perspective as being suspect and views anything supernatural as a complete fabrication, that in and of itself should not necessarily undermine the historicity of a lot of it.  At least, that's how I look at it. 
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2010, 12:56:50 PM »
No reason to add anything Bosk has said it all. Yes.. we were clearly talking past each other. The idea that Mark is incomplete is common knowledge but that's not what I understood from the discussion where it seemed the idea of the resurrection of Christ, the very idea was a simple tack on by scribes after the fact. This is clearly not true at all as it presents a very difficult paradox if it were true. Also this idea that something was "fluffed" seems a bit pointed to me. That is as if the scribe took the document and went "no no no! Let's take this character out and let's re-write this story here and put this here." as if he were brought in to liven things up. I cannot for a second believe that's how scribes looked at documents and worked on them. I take them a bit more seriously than that. In my mind what is added or changed would be like an artist trying to "restore" a work of art or sculpture. If parts of the document were lost then what "should" have been there according to the author not according to the scribe. This is all conjucture by the way but it makes the most sense to me over the idea that Scribes "invented" stuff in order to make it "better". I guess anything is possible, but this just seems something out of a Dan Brown novel to me than actual history.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2010, 12:59:40 PM »
I see what you're saying, and I would agree that it is up to one's choice to decide the magnitude of these changes.

I think what this whole discussion showed though that one can not just make blanket statements about the Bible's historicity. Some are clearly correct, some are clearly not historical at all.

rumborak


Yeah, I understand where you're coming from.  There is clearly room for a lot of debate.  But that is true of any other document as well.  I mean, there are plenty of well-reasoned, scholarly arguments why a lot of things Tacitus recorded may be fabrications or at least unreliable because of bias.  But that doesn't mean his writings don't have immense historical value.  I realize it is much easier to write off religious texts when approaching them from a secular perspective.  But even if one views the religious perspective as being suspect and views anything supernatural as a complete fabrication, that in and of itself should not necessarily undermine the historicity of a lot of it.  At least, that's how I look at it. 

That's fair enough I think. As you say (and that's a very new tune I hear from you here), one has to look at the specific example. As Hef pointed out, there is no way to reconcile for example the different birth dates that Luke and Matthew give; realistically, neither of them actually knew, and they extrapolated backwards just as we do these days.

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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2010, 01:01:27 PM »
I see what you're saying, and I would agree that it is up to one's choice to decide the magnitude of these changes.

I think what this whole discussion showed though that one can not just make blanket statements about the Bible's historicity. Some are clearly correct, some are clearly not historical at all.

rumborak


The same can and should be said about any history of that era. Things just were not written down as much as they were in the future so having any clear cut knowledge of these periods of time will always be sketchy at best however every year historians and scholars keep uncovering new things and fill in the gaps so maybe at some point down the road we will have a clear cut idea of things. So I would hope that people don't dismiss the Bible and accept other books about the same era as historical fact. I'm not saying the Bible is 100% historical. That's not what the Bible was meant to be. But it is clearly written behind a historical context and background that we can verify and have validated so why a person who dismiss the Bible's information on the Jewish Diasporia yet accept information from another book is beyond me.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2010, 01:05:05 PM »
Also this idea that something was "fluffed" seems a bit pointed to me. That is as if the scribe took the document and went "no no no! Let's take this character out and let's re-write this story here and put this here." as if he were brought in to liven things up. I cannot for a second believe that's how scribes looked at documents and worked on them. I take them a bit more seriously than that. In my mind what is added or changed would be like an artist trying to "restore" a work of art or sculpture. If parts of the document were lost then what "should" have been there according to the author not according to the scribe. This is all conjucture by the way but it makes the most sense to me over the idea that Scribes "invented" stuff in order to make it "better". I guess anything is possible, but this just seems something out of a Dan Brown novel to me than actual history.

I highly, highly recommend to you reading the "Misquoting Jesus" book in that regard. Scribes did change the Bible, for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes they thought somebody before them had altered the original and tried to "revert" it, by that act adding even more modifications. And yes, sometimes they also altered stuff to make it appeal more to their target audience. Just look at the different styles of the gospels themselves; they are clearly written with a target audience in mind, and they differ greatly in details at times, due to that. Don't you for example find it at least a bit "odd" that John would choose to shuffle around the order of events in Jesus' life?
I think you shouldn't underestimate how "living" Christian theology was in those times when the gospels were written down the first time. There was a large spread of beliefs regarding what/who Jesus was, including people who thought he wasn't the Messiah at all. What you are reading as the canon is a snapshot of a particular set of beliefs that ended up winning, more due to politics than because of inherent veracity.

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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 01:52:24 PM »
Also this idea that something was "fluffed" seems a bit pointed to me. That is as if the scribe took the document and went "no no no! Let's take this character out and let's re-write this story here and put this here." as if he were brought in to liven things up. I cannot for a second believe that's how scribes looked at documents and worked on them. I take them a bit more seriously than that. In my mind what is added or changed would be like an artist trying to "restore" a work of art or sculpture. If parts of the document were lost then what "should" have been there according to the author not according to the scribe. This is all conjucture by the way but it makes the most sense to me over the idea that Scribes "invented" stuff in order to make it "better". I guess anything is possible, but this just seems something out of a Dan Brown novel to me than actual history.

I highly, highly recommend to you reading the "Misquoting Jesus" book in that regard. Scribes did change the Bible, for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes they thought somebody before them had altered the original and tried to "revert" it, by that act adding even more modifications. And yes, sometimes they also altered stuff to make it appeal more to their target audience. Just look at the different styles of the gospels themselves; they are clearly written with a target audience in mind, and they differ greatly in details at times, due to that. Don't you for example find it at least a bit "odd" that John would choose to shuffle around the order of events in Jesus' life?
I think you shouldn't underestimate how "living" Christian theology was in those times when the gospels were written down the first time. There was a large spread of beliefs regarding what/who Jesus was, including people who thought he wasn't the Messiah at all. What you are reading as the canon is a snapshot of a particular set of beliefs that ended up winning, more due to politics than because of inherent veracity.

rumborak


I have heard of this book and know a few friends who have read it and I remember a link to a review to which they firmly agreed and sided with.

https://www.denverseminary.edu/article/misquoting-jesus-the-story-behind-who-changed-the-bible-and-why/

I think I fully appreciate what happened during that time. I have studied the period so I clearly don't underestimate it. However I am unclear as to why you think the set of beliefs that "won" should be discredited due to whatever political forces put them into practice? How do we know what "won" isn't the correct answer? How do we know that scholars didn't ponder and research the original texts and develop the proper ideas and flesh out the dogmas that were subsisting in the texts? Why do we immediately distrust what won? Of course you are going to have opposing ideas right at the beginning. The Apostles couldn't even understand Christ when we was speaking to them directly. For example there were the following questions: Is Christ human and divine? Is he just human? Is He just Divine? Did he really rise from the dead? (can't rise from the dead if you are not human). What is this trinity? Is it real? (never mentioned in the Bible and the development of this dogma is incredibly interesting). They aksed a TON of questions. Hence why eventually they had to have a council and finally get everything somewhat fleshed out, especially since they were at that "legal".

These heresies are great reads and I highly recommend anyone who is interested in reading them. There were quite a few and some of them were just over-the-top.

I'll give one example because I have read about these heresies and after reading them and the arguments against and for, people back then were leaps and bounds ahead of most people today. One heresy stated that Christ was Divine but not human. If this were true, then Christ never died, he never rose from the dead, there was no immaculate conception, nor did he perform miracles. All of these events hinge on the idea that Christ was human AND divine. I won't go into that. So to change the Gospel texts to make this more clear is a "good" thing.   ;) Now if the text originally read that Christ was only divine then clearly if you understand how the above cannot hold logically, then we must concur that such a text never was written. How can we hold to a God who is true if we hold to His Word that can be immediately and logically disproven? So I still hold on my convictions that 1) no dogma's were changed, added on or removed that would have completely changed the dogmas we have now or were already written down and 2) the resurrection stories were not an added element after the fact. ;)
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2010, 02:46:42 PM »
However I am unclear as to why you think the set of beliefs that "won" should be discredited due to whatever political forces put them into practice? How do we know what "won" isn't the correct answer?

I find that a somewhat blue-eyed view of things, to assume whoever won was the right one, especially when it was achieved through pure political power and subsequent eradication of the heretics. Mind you, I am not particularly surprised that this particularly version of theology won; it is undoubtedly the most grand, and puts Jesus on the highest pedestal there is.
I would have to hear a good argument why, with all the different gospels out there (including the non-canonical ones), the canonical ones are inherently superior. Especially a spaced-out one like John. Also, why the theological interpretation of John should be trusted more than the much more down-to-Earth ones of the Synoptic gospels.

rumborak
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 02:52:31 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2010, 03:48:59 PM »
However I am unclear as to why you think the set of beliefs that "won" should be discredited due to whatever political forces put them into practice? How do we know what "won" isn't the correct answer?

I find that a somewhat blue-eyed view of things, to assume whoever won was the right one, especially when it was achieved through pure political power and subsequent eradication of the heretics. Mind you, I am not particularly surprised that this particularly version of theology won; it is undoubtedly the most grand, and puts Jesus on the highest pedestal there is.
I would have to hear a good argument why, with all the different gospels out there (including the non-canonical ones), the canonical ones are inherently superior. Especially a spaced-out one like John. Also, why the theological interpretation of John should be trusted more than the much more down-to-Earth ones of the Synoptic gospels.

rumborak


Because he agrees with them. He just puts everything in a different order. Who said biographies are supposed to be written chronologically anyway?

The non canonical ones are non canonical for a reason. They were written by heretical splinter groups like the Gnostics. If you ever want something spaced out to mull over check out Gnosticism.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2010, 04:17:27 PM »
Because he agrees with them. He just puts everything in a different order. Who said biographies are supposed to be written chronologically anyway?

Err, ok. No comment here, seriously.

rumborak
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2010, 04:37:33 PM »
Because he agrees with them. He just puts everything in a different order. Who said biographies are supposed to be written chronologically anyway?
The differences are quite a bit more staggering than just putting everything in a different order.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2010, 04:40:11 PM »
Historically, the differences in the gospels fly in the face of the people that claim that Mat, Lk, and Jn were copied from Mk, or off of each other in general.  It also greatly diminishes the chance that the four authors conspired together.  

There is a theological answer for why different information was in the gospels, and the order they are in....

Matthew portrays Jesus as king.  (the reason for the Davidic lineage, and all the speeches, leadership activities, etc.)
Mark portrays him as a servant.  (constant actions performed by Jesus...why you get so many miracles in Mark)
Luke portrays him as a man. (lineage traced back to Adam....also portrays Jesus's emotions, such as "Jesus wept")
John portrays him as a God.  (verse 1 states Jesus is God...etc.)

There are also four cherubims....a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle....those are all types of the four things I just mentioned, in respective order...

And four is the number of creation...

Just some interesting tidbits for ya!   :tup
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »
Historically, the differences in the gospels fly in the face of the people that claim that Mat, Lk, and Jn were copied from Mk, or off of each other in general.  It also greatly diminishes the chance that the four authors conspired together.  
No one claims that Matthew, Luke, or John "copied" from Mark.  Many scholars think that Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source in composing their gospels.  That's not the same thing.  Furthermore, at least one scholar I've read thinks that John used Mark's passion narrative as a source.  No one thinks that the four authors conspired together AFAIK.

There is a theological answer for why different information was in the gospels, and the order they are in....

Matthew portrays Jesus as king.  (the reason for the Davidic lineage, and all the speeches, leadership activities, etc.)
Mark portrays him as a servant.  (constant actions performed by Jesus...why you get so many miracles in Mark)
Luke portrays him as a man. (lineage traced back to Adam....also portrays Jesus's emotions, such as "Jesus wept")
John portrays him as a God.  (verse 1 states Jesus is God...etc.)

There are also four cherubims....a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle....those are all types of the four things I just mentioned, in respective order...

And four is the number of creation...

Just some interesting tidbits for ya!   :tup
I don't agree with your characterizations, I don't know what "four cherubims" have to do with anything, and I don't know what you mean about four being the number of creation, but you are right that each of the gospels portrays Jesus differently, with some differences being much bigger than others.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2010, 04:51:22 PM »
But 4 is half the number represented by Octavarium.  And 4 is the number of nuggets in a Happy Meal.  So, obviously, nuggets abound.

But wait...it doesn't stop there!

Chickens were not unclean animals, and were thus a permissible food source for the Jews.  Cherubim have wings, which indicates a Jewish preference for wings.  4 chickens x 2 wings = 8

8 => TRAPPED INSIDE THIS OCTAVARIUM!  And this story, folks, ends where it began.

:octavarium:
^note 4 balls...nugget!
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2010, 04:53:38 PM »
 :lol

But the thing is...even if the other authors used Mark as a source, they wouldn't have written things that would be so vastly different.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2010, 05:07:20 PM »
Not necessarily.  One of the most difficult things about looking at past historical accounts is that we typically can't trace the flow of ideas.  There could be written or oral accounts we don't have, or judgments the author made without noting them. 

In the example I gave in the other thread about the Roman noble Coriolanus, there's discrepancies between the different accounts of his life that we can't trace.  Most puzzling is why Plutarch, who very clearly based his own account off of Livy's, recounted a fate for Coriolanus different then either of the ones Livy suggested.  We don't have any insight into how the historical opinions/research changed in the interim; it makes it really difficult for historians now to trace the flow of ideas.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2010, 07:24:31 PM »
:lol

But the thing is...even if the other authors used Mark as a source, they wouldn't have written things that would be so vastly different.
The ones that used Mark (Matthew and Luke) AREN'T vastly different.  They mostly include a lot of stuff that Mark didn't have, and occasionally alter something Markan to fit their presentation of Jesus.

John is vastly different, but other than the Passion story, there isn't any evidence whatsoever that he had any knowledge of Mark (or Matthew or Luke).
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2010, 10:05:32 AM »
I feel as if I should make a few things a bit more clear as I think my previous posts were not so clear at all.

It is widely known that the Bible has gone through "adjustments" but remember there was no Bible until 382 I believe when the Church got around to putting all "approved" material into a single collection. Now what do we mean by approved? Well the Bible was put together on the basis of Divine Revelation, not on the basis of historical fact. That is in putting together the Bible, the Church was not concerned about inconsistancies of history that had no effect on Christian Dogma. In other words, if two Gospels can't agree on where Christ was born, it doesn't matter as the birth of Jesus as the Son of God is an article of faith. The historical birth of Jesus is not an article of faith if we know for a fact the man was born. Faith rests in the unknowing, not in the knowing. The Bible is more concerned about divine revelation and the Word of God which is not inconsistant but unchanging. We should not also just forsake the very notion of the event actually happening for without the event actually happening, there is no event to speak or write of, so of course there must be some historical context attached.

We need to accept the human imperfection in the Bible but truth in God's perfection. If you are to base your entire faith in God on how historically accurate the Bible is, then I'm afraid you will never attain faith in God in your lifetime. Faith is not created through a measured human restriction. im not saying this to mean either accept the Bible and forget the historical inaccuracies. Not in the slightest. The inaccuracies are interesting in themselves but they should NEVER hinder a person's faith in the Divine Word. So that idea that John's gospel has events for Christ in a different order should not in anyway take away anyone's faith in God for it's not the order of the events but the event's themselves that important. Naturally the events should have a reasonable order, birth first, death last, but whether the beatitudes are first here or further down the road in other gospel when it comes to revelation is irrelavant. What is relavant is the Word itself during the Beatitude and the fact that event did happen.

Also it has been said we should not underestimate the scribes. This is fine and dandy, but then I shall ask that people do not underestimate the scholars who came after the scribes and the historians and theologians today who have and continue to bring the Word of God alive and we hope in the correct form, but if we have faith in God and in His ways, then we should have faith in those who are custodians to the Bible ad therefore have faith that the Bible we have now is the Divine Word of God in absolute correct form and that is complete and 100%. Again this is Catholic Doctrinal Teaching. Others will disagree and have their own Doctrinal teaching on the matter. To remove God from the Bible makes the Bible just another book. If that's what people want to do, that fine, but that's your opinion. ;)
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Biblical Historicity
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2010, 10:19:51 AM »
However I am unclear as to why you think the set of beliefs that "won" should be discredited due to whatever political forces put them into practice? How do we know what "won" isn't the correct answer?

I find that a somewhat blue-eyed view of things, to assume whoever won was the right one, especially when it was achieved through pure political power and subsequent eradication of the heretics. Mind you, I am not particularly surprised that this particularly version of theology won; it is undoubtedly the most grand, and puts Jesus on the highest pedestal there is.
I would have to hear a good argument why, with all the different gospels out there (including the non-canonical ones), the canonical ones are inherently superior. Especially a spaced-out one like John. Also, why the theological interpretation of John should be trusted more than the much more down-to-Earth ones of the Synoptic gospels.

rumborak


But this is way the human condition sees the Bible. Again, the Bible is the Word of God and we either trust the power of God in the creation of the Bible or not. This is not to say that God was vying for a side the whole time. This is saying, that the right people at the right time were in the right place moved by the will of God to make sure the Bible people had then and have today is the same unchanging word of God. Also I bolded the following above to make an observation. They are superior because they are the true Word of God and we know this because of faith not through argumentation. this is the whole point of the Bible. Textual Criticisms are great in that it brings more light into a rather dimly light world we still don't know everything about, but again, you cannot base faith on historical accurracy on the Bible. Faith comes from the Divine Word.

In hindsight the best thing here is to simply agree to disagree because I understand where you are coming from and unfortunately my ideas will never agree with yours.  ;)

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