Creating God in one's own image.

[Philawallafox]

Nothing in existence is perfect. Is that ALL to blame for Adam and Eve?

This is what the Bible says.

Would this be an inconvenient time to point out this is all pointless hypothesizing because Adam and Eve never existed?

That in itself is a hypothesis. a Pointless hypothesis to make. Evidence is on my side for that. I actually have evidence that they existed. If you want to claim they never existed; prove it.

[Adami]

The bible doesn't say anything about universal imperfections. Nor does it attribute DNA.....wait, it never mentions DNA.

[Philawallafox]

The bible doesn't say anything about universal imperfections. Nor does it attribute DNA.....wait, it never mentions DNA.

I'm pretty sure it says "all creation" in Romans 8 and DNA is part of creation isn't it? Wait, you didn't read the passages I referenced.

[Adami]

Paul wasn't aware of DNA or anything outside of his field of vision. His "all creation" is limited.

[GuineaPig]

Would this be an inconvenient time to point out this is all pointless hypothesizing because Adam and Eve never existed?

That in itself is a hypothesis. a Pointless hypothesis to make. Evidence is on my side for that. I actually have evidence that they existed. If you want to claim they never existed; prove it.

uhhhhhhhhh


Could I see this evidence?  Where do you even draw the line at what is and what is not human? 

[Philawallafox]

Paul wasn't aware of DNA or anything outside of his field of vision. His "all creation" is limited.

Actually his "creation" referred to everything that has been created. Jews knew acutely about heredity (they were very proud of family lines and made great attempts to trace their family lines back as far as possible). They knew that sin had tarnished their worldly bodies. This is why they looked forward to their resurrected bodies which wouldn't age and wouldn't have imperfections.

So while they didn't know what DNA was, they know that the body is imperfect and it decays. You don't need to know about DNA to know that things aren't right.

[Philawallafox]

Would this be an inconvenient time to point out this is all pointless hypothesizing because Adam and Eve never existed?

That in itself is a hypothesis. a Pointless hypothesis to make. Evidence is on my side for that. I actually have evidence that they existed. If you want to claim they never existed; prove it.

uhhhhhhhhh


Could I see this evidence?  Where do you even draw the line at what is and what is not human? 

Gen 1-3

[Adami]

That's your proof for Adam and EVe?

Genesis?


Really?

[GuineaPig]

I can't remember, does Genesis say Adam is an Australopithicus or a Homo?

[Adami]

I can't remember, does Genesis say Adam is an Australopithicus or a Homo?

Hetero.

[ack44]

Would this be an inconvenient time to point out this is all pointless hypothesizing because Adam and Eve never existed?

That in itself is a hypothesis. a Pointless hypothesis to make. Evidence is on my side for that. I actually have evidence that they existed. If you want to claim they never existed; prove it.

uhhhhhhhhh


Could I see this evidence?  Where do you even draw the line at what is and what is not human? 

Gen 1-3

fuck

[Adami]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

[Philawallafox]

I can't remember, does Genesis say Adam is an Australopithicus or a Homo?

it says "man" and "woman".

It says God's image. It traces humans which we know were Homo Sapiens back to Adam and Eve. As a result I have no reason to believe that they weren't Homo Sapiens.

[GuineaPig]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

That's a plot hole that ALWAYS bugged me, but I hadn't seen anyone mention 'til now.

@Phil

But we clearly have about 4 million of divergent evolution from other primates.  When were they given souls?  Was it all Garden of Eden up in here up until ~150,000 years ago?  Where do you draw the line between homo sapiens and other species of the genus?  How can you reconcile this with other elements of natural history that clearly show the rest of Genesis has no bearing on our natural history?

[Philawallafox]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

Cain's wife came from Eve.

Which isn't so bad considering that Eve came from Adam, she didn't haver any dissemination. The bible has no problem with Adam having sex with a derivitive of himself. As a result of that it's safe to assume that God set things up so that weird things didn't happen seeing they were the "proto"family so to speak.

I hold no qualms with believing that God set up some really strong DNA in Adam and Eve that held for extreme variations among their children. After that natural selection and micro evolution set in and we have variations in skin colour and eye colour etc. where people have adapted to the climate and culture etc.

[Adami]

The bible doesn't say that caines wife came from eve. You're assuming.

[Philawallafox]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

That's a plot hole that ALWAYS bugged me, but I hadn't seen anyone mention 'til now.

@Phil

But we clearly have about 4 million of divergent evolution from other primates.  When were they given souls?  Was it all Garden of Eden up in here up until ~150,000 years ago?  Where do you draw the line between homo sapiens and other species of the genus?  How can you reconcile this with other elements of natural history that clearly show the rest of Genesis has no bearing on our natural history?

"4 million of divergent evolution" 4 million of what?

look we're both arguing from different perspectives here. I'm arguing from what the bible tells me wich is: God created man and woman in his image" which is what separates humans from the primates.

On the note of evolution, you show me solid evidence of a species jump (or "macro" evolution) and I'll find evidence of a mistake or a hoax.

[Philawallafox]

The bible doesn't say that caines wife came from eve. You're assuming.

You're right. i'm assuming that when the Bible says God created Adam and Even and doesn't mention anyone else that there was in fact, no one else.

[Adami]

The bible doesn't say that caines wife came from eve. You're assuming.

You're right. i'm assuming that when the Bible says God created Adam and Even and doesn't mention anyone else that there was in fact, no one else.

You'd think since they spend page after page mentioning every person from every generation in Gen, they'd at least make mention of Caines wife being born.

But they didn't. Strange eh?

[GuineaPig]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

That's a plot hole that ALWAYS bugged me, but I hadn't seen anyone mention 'til now.

@Phil

But we clearly have about 4 million of divergent evolution from other primates.  When were they given souls?  Was it all Garden of Eden up in here up until ~150,000 years ago?  Where do you draw the line between homo sapiens and other species of the genus?  How can you reconcile this with other elements of natural history that clearly show the rest of Genesis has no bearing on our natural history?

"4 million of divergent evolution" 4 million of what?

look we're both arguing from different perspectives here. I'm arguing from what the bible tells me wich is: God created man and woman in his image" which is what separates humans from the primates.

On the note of evolution, you show me solid evidence of a species jump (or "macro" evolution) and I'll find evidence of a mistake or a hoax.

Sorry, meant 4 million years. 

And a serious wut.  We have a number of observable examples of "macro"evolution (which is just plain old-fashioned evolution; I don't understand why creationists believe this is impossible considering the time scales we are dealing with).  Human evolution is fairly well mapped out, for one.  Evolution of land mammals similar to cows to whales is extremely well documented.  The development of most amphibians is pretty well preserved by the fossil record, too.

[j]

On the note of evolution, you show me solid evidence of a species jump (or "macro" evolution) and I'll find evidence of a mistake or a hoax.

Well, this sentence is definitely true.

-J

[Philawallafox]

The bible doesn't say that caines wife came from eve. You're assuming.

You're right. i'm assuming that when the Bible says God created Adam and Even and doesn't mention anyone else that there was in fact, no one else.

You'd think since they spend page after page mentioning every person from every generation in Gen, they'd at least make mention of Caines wife being born.



But they didn't. Strange eh?

Not really. They genealogy of Genesis 5 only covers the first born son. It doesn't even mention Cain but we know he existed.

Genesis goes through all of it's genealogies by the father. Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Joseph. Generally the wives only come up for storytelling purposes. So no I don't find it hard to believe that Eve had daughters.

[rumborak]

I'm just thinking this through right now. Cain's wife comes from Eve, and the father can also only be Adam. So, Cain's wife is actually his sister. The offspring of Cain has the option to either too mate with their own siblings, or with their parents.
Didn't know Eden was in West Virginia.

rumborak

[Adami]

I'm just thinking this through right now. Cain's wife comes from Eve, and the father can also only be Adam. So, Cain's wife is actually his sister. The offspring of Cain has the option to either too mate with their own siblings, or with their parents.
Didn't know Eden was in West Virginia.

rumborak

Yea, phil already said that god gave them strong DNA so that they'd be ok. I guess the bible mentioned that.

[rumborak]

Ah, I see. Phil doesn't really know what DNA is. Fair enough.

rumborak

[Adami]

Ah, I see. Phil doesn't really know what DNA is. Fair enough.

rumborak

Just that it's broke and causes cancer cause we sinned.

[Philawallafox]

I'm just thinking this through right now. Cain's wife comes from Eve, and the father can also only be Adam. So, Cain's wife is actually his sister. The offspring of Cain has the option to either too mate with their own siblings, or with their parents.
Didn't know Eden was in West Virginia.

rumborak

Back in the day 'keeping it in the family' wasn't a terribly big thing. It still happens (to a lesser extent) these days; Hindus marry Hindus, Jews marry Jews etc etc. When your prospects are limited you go with what you have.



These days incest is bad because there are options and not using them is just lazy.

[Philawallafox]

Ah, I see. Phil doesn't really know what DNA is. Fair enough.

rumborak

Just that it's broke and causes cancer cause we sinned.

you're very good at reducto ad absurdum

[Adami]

I'm just thinking this through right now. Cain's wife comes from Eve, and the father can also only be Adam. So, Cain's wife is actually his sister. The offspring of Cain has the option to either too mate with their own siblings, or with their parents.
Didn't know Eden was in West Virginia.

rumborak

Back in the day 'keeping it in the family' wasn't a terribly big thing. It still happens (to a lesser extent) these days; Hindus marry Hindus, Jews marry Jews etc etc. When your prospects are limited you go with what you have.



These days incest is bad because there are options and not using them is just lazy.

That's not why incest is bad.

[ack44]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

 The Bible has a bunch of problems but I seriously fail to see how this is one of them. Just seems like a case of filling in the blank.

[Vivace]

The bible is chock full of contradictions, some of which are being discussed in about 32578625983 other threads right now.  I agree there has to be a distinction made between man's words and God's.  But where can we see the "Divine Word" in its untainted form?  If man's interpretation of God's word is not reliable, then what is?

You simply just have to have faith that the word of God in the Bible is the best possible form even with man's imperfections. We either accept that what we have is correct or we anguish in the idea that we can never come to know God at all. Given that #2 for me again creates an impossible quandry, "why would an eternal good God creates mankind and make it impossible for us to know him?" The Divine Word of the Bible is untainted. It must be so but again, that's my faith talking and my trust in about a million plus people who are wiser than I and have given me the assurance that it truly is the Word of God.

[Adami]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

 The Bible has a bunch of problems but I seriously fail to see how this is one of them. Just seems like a case of filling in the blank.

Unless that blank is that the wife is his sister, then it's not very easy.

[Ħ]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

 The Bible has a bunch of problems but I seriously fail to see how this is one of them. Just seems like a case of filling in the blank.

Unless that blank is that the wife is his sister, then it's not very easy.

Cain, Abel, and Seth weren't the only children Adam and Eve had.  One of the genealogies states that they had daughters as well.

[ack44]

Phil, old buddy, since you take the bible so literally. I am curious, where did Caines wife come from?

 The Bible has a bunch of problems but I seriously fail to see how this is one of them. Just seems like a case of filling in the blank.

Unless that blank is that the wife is his sister, then it's not very easy.

 It's Mesopotamian black humor 

[Vivace]

Wow, has this thread digressed.