Presence and ego

[AndyDT]

I've read or listened to a few Eckhart Tolle books and have found them very interesting. However, I can't end up but feel that the end result is to go around spaced out, aimlessly. Even though he says "you can still have goals", if you haven't got the ego behind them how are you going to get motivated to reach them?

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Tolle talks about your "Outer purpose" and "Inner purpose". Your outer purpose includes everything material and mind-generated content. So the goals you are talking about are part of your outer purpose. What I get from your post is that you're under the assumption that goals have to be ego-motivated. The problem with ego-motivated goals is that the ego can never get enough. Once you reach an ego-motivated goal, your ego is going to set another goal. Of course, there will be temporary happiness after reaching an ego-motivated goal, but there will be no lasting joy. This is true for everything concerning your outer purpose. Every outer purpose is destined to fail, because of the law of impermanence. The only way you can have lasting joy is by focusing on your inner purpose. Your inner purpose has nothing to do with goals or future events, it's focused on the step you're taking right now: the present. Every future goal starts with the step you are taking right now. You don't need your ego to take that step, just your being.

Now, you're also implying that focusing on your inner purpose means that you're spaced out. Being spaced out would mean that you were below your normal level of consciousness, being drunk or watching TV for example. By focusing on your inner purpose you're rising above your normal level of consciousness.

Another thing to consider: what would you rather be?

-Relatively aimless, but with a fulfilled inner purpose. (Buddha)
-Having a fulfilled outer purpose and an unfulfilled inner purpose. (suicidal billionairs)

The last option, outer riches and inner poverty, is sadly more common. When you reach your inner purpose, you will see that nothing you do can add to what you already have. Then you can set goals, just for fun. Or you can sit underneath a bodhi tree all day and do nothing. Just like Tolle did until he thought it would be fun to write a book.

[AndyDT]

He isn't saying that ego is unnecessary though is he? Isn't the ego a survival mechanism? Isn't goal setting vital to survive and reproduce? I understand it to mean that goals won't fulfil you because you'll always want more and to expand but they are still a part of life.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

The ego is certainly not unneccesary. We can still use the ego when we are present, Tolle calls this "clock-time". In clock-time, we can set goals, plan ahead: use the ego as a survival mechanism. This is what the ego was orginally meant for. It's just that in everyone who does not have a fulfilled inner purpose, the instrument (the ego) has completely taken them over. They believe they are their ego (or mind), they are unconciously identified with it.

You say goals are a part of life. They are indeed a part of life, but only a part of the outer purpose of your life. In your inner purpose, time, and thus goals, don't exist.

[Philawallafox]

Another thing to consider: what would you rather be?

-Relatively aimless, but with a fulfilled inner purpose. (Buddha)
-Having a fulfilled outer purpose and an unfulfilled inner purpose. (suicidal billionairs)

Is it better to be feared or respected? I say why not have both?

I choose c/
Completely fulfilled outer purpose and being full of joy all the time.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Another thing to consider: what would you rather be?

-Relatively aimless, but with a fulfilled inner purpose. (Buddha)
-Having a fulfilled outer purpose and an unfulfilled inner purpose. (suicidal billionairs)

Is it better to be feared or respected? I say why not have both?

I choose c/
Completely fulfilled outer purpose and being full of joy all the time.

Your outer purpose can never be completely fulfilled, since it's run by the ego. The ego always wants more, it is never completely fulfilled. Also, even if it was somehow completely fulfilled it wouldn't last, because every outer purpose is subject to the law of impermanence.

But I think you meant having a pretty good outer purpose and being full of joy. That's possible, ofcourse. I just gave examples of both extremes. But keep in mind that the expectations of the outer purpose change along with the inner purpose. If you have a fulfilled inner purpose, you'll have little desire to earn millions of dollars because you know it wouldn't improve your quality of consciousness.

[Philawallafox]

truth be told I'm about as educated on this theory as average joe plumber.

however i would juist up and replace ego if i'm never going to be satisfied because of it.

[AndyDT]

The first problem with presence I noticed is that on practising it day to day, subconscious negative thoughts or feelings can still be undermining my performance so I have to deal with them on the level of thought. Observing them alone surely can render you ineffective in what you need to do in the moment.

[Philawallafox]

The first problem with presence I noticed is that on practising it day to day, subconscious negative thoughts or feelings can still be undermining my performance so I have to deal with them on the level of thought. Observing them alone surely can render you ineffective in what you need to do in the moment.

well...they always will be...nothing you can do will blot them out...

[In The Name Of Rudess]

The first problem with presence I noticed is that on practising it day to day, subconscious negative thoughts or feelings can still be undermining my performance so I have to deal with them on the level of thought.

Okay. So, you are experiencing negative thoughts and feelings. There are 2 ways in which feelings can take shape:

1. The painbody is awakened, possibly by a trigger.
2. The feelings are triggered by a thought.

In case 1, you will first feel a wave of negative emotion, and not necessarily any thoughts. You have to be present to sense the initial wave. Then, the painbody will try to manufacture negative thoughts. However, if you stay present it will not succeed. This is explained in detail in the part about the painbody in Tolle's books.

In case 2, the feelings have been triggered by a thought. This means that you have indentified with the thought. This is where watching your thoughts comes in. Now, watching a thought doesn't have to mean stopping whatever you're doing and dropping into a meditative state (although that would be the best thing to do). You can just continue whatever it was you were doing, but do it as focused and mindful as possible, while remembering that the thought is just part of the ego. If you do this, then this:

Observing them alone surely can render you ineffective in what you need to do in the moment.

will not be a problem, since you can just continue any activity. Staying present, or being mindful when you are engaged in an activity, is the only way to alleviate negative thoughts and feelings. They can't be dealt with on the level of thought. That would be the ego attacking itself, an ouroboros. You need to rise above thought, using presence.

This may be interesting for you to read: https://www.wildmind.org/applied/daily-life

well...they always will be...nothing you can do will blot them out...

Blotting them out is not the intention. Recognising them as part of the ego is.

[Philawallafox]

well...they always will be...nothing you can do will blot them out...

Blotting them out is not the intention. Recognising them as part of the ego is.
[/quote]

sure what do you do with them once you recognise them as ego?

Also... if you're always so self absorbed in your own ego howv are you supposed to achive anything?

What's the purpose of your life?

[In The Name Of Rudess]

sure what do you do with them once you recognise them as ego?

Nothing. You let them be.

Also... if you're always so self absorbed in your own ego howv are you supposed to achive anything?

People who are self-absorbed in their ego will achieve things, but they won't ever be truly happy. Achieving things is outer purpose.

What's the purpose of your life?

I'm not fully enlightened yet, although I'm probably roughly at 70% of the way. So I think your question is what the purpose of life is for people with a completely fulfilled inner purpose. Well, that was your answer. Their inner purpose is already fulfilled.

Like you've stated, you are not very educated in the subject. It would be better to first read the books, then ask questions.

[Philawallafox]

sure what do you do with them once you recognise them as ego?

Nothing. You let them be.

what's the point of that?

Also... if you're always so self absorbed in your own ego howv are you supposed to achive anything?

People who are self-absorbed in their ego will achieve things, but they won't ever be truly happy. Achieving things is outer purpose.

So there are two purposes to life; and Enlightenment is the result of achieving both?

What's the purpose of your life?

I'm not fully enlightened yet, although I'm probably roughly at 70% of the way. So I think your question is what the purpose of life is for people with a completely fulfilled inner purpose. Well, that was your answer. Their inner purpose is already fulfilled.

ok then. What does an inner purpose look like?

Like you've stated, you are not very educated in the subject. It would be better to first read the books, then ask questions.

well I could. but yuo're more fun to challenge. No point in believing something if you can't defend it to someone.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

sure what do you do with them once you recognise them as ego?

Nothing. You let them be.

what's the point of that?

If you don't let your thoughts be, like >98% of people in western society, you become identified with them. Your thoughts will be added to the ego, which is a mental construct of thoughts and ideas that tries to maintain your "image". When this image is threatened, the ego jumps into action causing negative emotions. By not adhering to this mental structure, one becomes ego-less. This is called being present. People who are free of the ego are enlightened.

Also... if you're always so self absorbed in your own ego howv are you supposed to achive anything?

People who are self-absorbed in their ego will achieve things, but they won't ever be truly happy. Achieving things is outer purpose.

So there are two purposes to life; and Enlightenment is the result of achieving both?

There is inner purpose and outer purpose. Outer purpose is everything material, inner purpose is your quality of consciousness. Enlightenment is the result of achieving inner purpose. Enlightenment does not mean achieving outer purpose. As I've said before, outer purpose can never be completely achieved. The ego is insatiable.

What's the purpose of your life?

I'm not fully enlightened yet, although I'm probably roughly at 70% of the way. So I think your question is what the purpose of life is for people with a completely fulfilled inner purpose. Well, that was your answer. Their inner purpose is already fulfilled.

ok then. What does an inner purpose look like?

It's not material. Then it would be outer purpose. It's impossible to put into words what an inner purpose is exactly, because then it would just become an idea: a mental construct.

Like you've stated, you are not very educated in the subject. It would be better to first read the books, then ask questions.

well I could. but yuo're more fun to challenge. No point in believing something if you can't defend it to someone.

Okay. For the record, it's not believing, it's knowing. All this buddhist theory about inner purpose, outer purpose, presence etc. has been empirically determined. As Buddha himself said:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

Observation and analysis is done through meditation and mindfulness, the main tools of the buddhist.

[Philawallafox]

sure what do you do with them once you recognise them as ego?

Nothing. You let them be.

what's the point of that?

If you don't let your thoughts be, like >98% of people in western society, you become identified with them. Your thoughts will be added to the ego, which is a mental construct of thoughts and ideas that tries to maintain your "image". When this image is threatened, the ego jumps into action causing negative emotions. By not adhering to this mental structure, one becomes ego-less. This is called being present. People who are free of the ego are enlightened.

i'm not sure what you mean. Could you please stop using jargon? The best I can make out is that you become recognised by your thoughts and...umm your thoughts are part of your ego but your ego acts separate to your thoughts causing negative emotions. Which is bad.

Also... if you're always so self absorbed in your own ego howv are you supposed to achive anything?

People who are self-absorbed in their ego will achieve things, but they won't ever be truly happy. Achieving things is outer purpose.

So there are two purposes to life; and Enlightenment is the result of achieving both?

There is inner purpose and outer purpose. Outer purpose is everything material, inner purpose is your quality of consciousness. Enlightenment is the result of achieving inner purpose. Enlightenment does not mean achieving outer purpose. As I've said before, outer purpose can never be completely achieved. The ego is insatiable.

so. your inner purpose is how awake you are? does that mean I am enlightened every morning when i wake up?

What's the purpose of your life?

I'm not fully enlightened yet, although I'm probably roughly at 70% of the way. So I think your question is what the purpose of life is for people with a completely fulfilled inner purpose. Well, that was your answer. Their inner purpose is already fulfilled.

ok then. What does an inner purpose look like?

It's not material. Then it would be outer purpose. It's impossible to put into words what an inner purpose is exactly, because then it would just become an idea: a mental construct.

Sounds unachievable. Surely a purpose is a construct in itself or it isn't a purpose in the first place?

Like you've stated, you are not very educated in the subject. It would be better to first read the books, then ask questions.

well I could. but yuo're more fun to challenge. No point in believing something if you can't defend it to someone.

Okay. For the record, it's not believing, it's knowing. All this buddhist theory about inner purpose, outer purpose, presence etc. has been empirically determined. As Buddha himself said:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

Observation and analysis is done through meditation and mindfulness, the main tools of the buddhist.

Ok for the record if it's your reason and your meditation and your mindfulness it's what you BELIEVE
if yuo're adhering to what Buddha said then you're ignoring his teaching and that sounds like some self negating teaching to me.

[Adami]

Buddha didn't say "don't believe in anything". He simply said don't believe in something simply because you were told it. Find your own truth.

[Philawallafox]

Buddha didn't say "don't believe in anything". He simply said don't believe in something simply because you were told it. Find your own truth.

So why listen to him then?

[Adami]

Buddha didn't say "don't believe in anything". He simply said don't believe in something simply because you were told it. Find your own truth.

So why listen to him then?

We only listen to him if we have found personally that what he says makes sense. If it doesn't, we ignore it.

[Philawallafox]

Buddha didn't say "don't believe in anything". He simply said don't believe in something simply because you were told it. Find your own truth.

So why listen to him then?

We only listen to him if we have found personally that what he says makes sense. If it doesn't, we ignore it.

Then why do buddhists not examine every other religion first? it sounds to me like Buddhism is the only belief system that who's aim is to not exist.

It can't be possible to be fully enlightened. The Ego will always remove you from Enlightenment. as Enlightenment itself becomes an end it makes itself an outward purpose, thereby negating itself.

[Adami]

Many buddhists do examine other religions. Why some don't is a personal decision.

I'm sorry you don't like buddhism, or that you view of humanity so beyond low. But please don't be so condescending about it.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

@Philawallafox: An important hallmark of the ego is that it must be superior to others. One of the most important ways for the ego to feel superior is being right. Being right is identification with a mental position - a perspective, or opionion. For the ego to be right, ofcourse, someone else needs to be wrong. Belittling other people's perspectives is a good way of making them wrong. I would say that your behaviour was a nice demonstration of this fact.

[Philawallafox]

@Philawallafox: An important hallmark of the ego is that it must be superior to others. One of the most important ways for the ego to feel superior is being right. Being right is identification with a mental position - a perspective, or opionion. For the ego to be right, ofcourse, someone else needs to be wrong. Belittling other people's perspectives is a good way of making them wrong. I would say that your behaviour was a nice demonstration of this fact.

So now you're saying you're right because you're wrong?

and you're calling me arrogant?

[In The Name Of Rudess]

@Philawallafox: An important hallmark of the ego is that it must be superior to others. One of the most important ways for the ego to feel superior is being right. Being right is identification with a mental position - a perspective, or opionion. For the ego to be right, ofcourse, someone else needs to be wrong. Belittling other people's perspectives is a good way of making them wrong. I would say that your behaviour was a nice demonstration of this fact.

So now you're saying you're right because you're wrong?

I'm not saying anyone is right, just that your ego was belittling my perspectives because it felt threatened. You are doing the exact same thing I was trying to explain in this thread: equating yourself with your ego.

and you're calling me arrogant?

Hmm, that sounds a bit like a threat, doesn't it? After also having read some of your posts in other theads, I can say that your ego seems to be very active. It's easily provoked. Watch that.

"In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher."

If you don't mind, I won't be responding to any of your posts as long as your ego is this active.

[AndyDT]

The first problem with presence I noticed is that on practising it day to day, subconscious negative thoughts or feelings can still be undermining my performance so I have to deal with them on the level of thought.

Okay. So, you are experiencing negative thoughts and feelings. There are 2 ways in which feelings can take shape:

1. The painbody is awakened, possibly by a trigger.
2. The feelings are triggered by a thought.

In case 1, you will first feel a wave of negative emotion, and not necessarily any thoughts. You have to be present to sense the initial wave. Then, the painbody will try to manufacture negative thoughts. However, if you stay present it will not succeed. This is explained in detail in the part about the painbody in Tolle's books.

In case 2, the feelings have been triggered by a thought. This means that you have indentified with the thought. This is where watching your thoughts comes in. Now, watching a thought doesn't have to mean stopping whatever you're doing and dropping into a meditative state (although that would be the best thing to do). You can just continue whatever it was you were doing, but do it as focused and mindful as possible, while remembering that the thought is just part of the ego. If you do this, then this:

Observing them alone surely can render you ineffective in what you need to do in the moment.

will not be a problem, since you can just continue any activity. Staying present, or being mindful when you are engaged in an activity, is the only way to alleviate negative thoughts and feelings. They can't be dealt with on the level of thought. That would be the ego attacking itself, an ouroboros. You need to rise above thought, using presence.

So if I'm at work or somewhere and the ego is busy creating inferiority or fear and doom thoughts, it's fair to say that one or two will get through and send a subconscious "I am useless" thought creating that state. You can change your state by countering this or using affirmations. Presumably this is ego but otherwise what are you left with? Observing your "useless" emotional state. Is that enough? Are you saying it's not useful to even bother to correct this? Or that ideally, when you're enlightened enough you can catch it before it takes root with a "ah, I recognise you" kind of awareness?

This may be interesting for you to read: https://www.wildmind.org/applied/daily-life

Yes thanks I'll read through that.

well...they always will be...nothing you can do will blot them out...

Blotting them out is not the intention. Recognising them as part of the ego is.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

So if I'm at work or somewhere and the ego is busy creating inferiority or fear and doom thoughts, it's fair to say that one or two will get through and send a subconscious "I am useless" thought creating that state. You can change your state by countering this or using affirmations. Presumably this is ego but otherwise what are you left with? Observing your "useless" emotional state. Is that enough? Are you saying it's not useful to even bother to correct this?

Exactly. Don't try to make the feeling go away. By countering the feeling you are creating resistance to the feeling. Resistance to what is means suffering.

If a negative feeling comes up during meditation it can be a good exercise to focus completely on the feeling and let it be, without there being any resistance. Seperate the feeling from the thoughts that triggered it. When you do this, the feeling is no longer you, you are the observing presence. As soon as you become the observing presence, you have recognised that the thought is not you and it will lose its power over you. This may not happen instantaneously, it can take several minutes for the energy to drain. Then you can just continue your meditation. In the beginning it would be best to try this with a moderately strong feeling. You may not yet have enough presence to stop a very strong emotion from taking you over.

Or that ideally, when you're enlightened enough you can catch it before it takes root with a "ah, I recognise you" kind of awareness?

That would be even better. You'll get the hang of that pretty fast, because habitual thought patterns always start the same way, with the same thoughts or the same feelings. When the first thoughts of the pattern comes along, you can interrupt it by recognising it. The earlier you recognise a pattern the easier it becomes to let it go. Meditation is very useful for recognising the thought patterns that occur most frequently.

[AndyDT]

So you'd recommend these techniques in the face of criticism say at work? I've often wondered how others react. It's not so much the criticism as what my mind has done after, having a knock-on effect throughout my life - more like a cancer laying devouring all self-esteem. I assume you'd call this ego? So I thought the answer was reacting to the feelings with positive statements but that doesn't seem to work at least as much as analysing the criticism itself and adjusting mentally to it. People say be tough, be resilient - yes, but what does that involve? From my reading so far, I would say facing down the feeling (courage) and killing the stories that emerge from it (presence). What do you think?

[In The Name Of Rudess]

So you'd recommend these techniques in the face of criticism say at work?

Yes.

I've often wondered how others react.

Taking criticism is hard, because it's a direct attack at the ego. The first reaction for most people is to defend themselves, or worse yet to lash back verbally or even physically. This is ofcourse not the best approach. They respond this way because they think they are the emotion. They are angry. By recognising that the emotion came from the ego you can take some distance from the emotion. You can accept that the criticism provoked the ego and caused an emotion. You don't have to react.

We can control our emotional responses to situations through the amydala. Meditation strengthens this regulatory part of the brain so you can build capacity to control amygdala hijacks by the ego when we meet with stress. Some time ago I read a story about an experiment with a buddhist monk and a confrontational professor. They were both wired for physiological measurement. At the start the professor's heartrate was already racing. However, the monk stayed so calm in the debate that he actually calmed down the professor. So, if we can develop and strengthen the controlling section of the pre-frontal cortex (amygdala) through meditation we can actually spread calm and rationality.

It's not so much the criticism as what my mind has done after, having a knock-on effect throughout my life - more like a cancer laying devouring all self-esteem. I assume you'd call this ego?

Yes. The situation isn't what's making you feel bad, the ego's resistance to the situation is. There is no logical reason to keep paying attention to thoughts concerning a confrontation that has already ended. Tolle uses the analogy of 2 ducks fighting in a pond here. It might be good to read that chapter again.

I would say facing down the feeling (courage) and killing the stories that emerge from it (presence). What do you think?

That's right. I would say killing is not the right word though, thoughts should only be recognised as coming from the ego. Then you should return to awareness in a gentle way. It can be helpful to use "mini-meditations" every couple of hours when under emotional pressure. Just breathe and be aware of your body and your senses for a couple of minutes. This can help you to maintain a mindful attitude throughout the day. You could use a timer on your computer or cellphone to remember doing them.

[AndyDT]

Not sure if this adds anything new, but I was reading about self-esteem. The author says that goal setting is essential to survival and evolution rather than being a western myth. For this you need some self-esteem so the self is still needed. I think Tolle is saying, don't let it define you.