Official Helloween thread v. Pumpkins United

[TAC]

Missing the Los Angeles show was one of the biggest concert disappointments of my life (I had a family issue come up, and while I could have still gone, it would have been the wrong decision to do so), and to-date, I still haven't listened to Helloween because I just get all upset over missing one of my favorite singers (Kiske) sing songs from two of my favorite records (Keeper 1 and 2).

I hear you Bri. That was painful to read my man.

It's also the reason that since the Bruins lost in the Stanley Cup, I've been wearing a Providence Bruins hat all summer. On full display in the TACation pics.

[MirrorMask]

So I'm listening to Keeper: The Legacy tonight and I had this thought.


What do you guys think about the upcoming album? Any chance it's built on the Keeper concept?

Perhaps the tour could be Keeper promoted pulling tracks from the 1st two albums, as well as The Legacy and New Album.


There are spots in King Of 1000 Years that would fit Kai perfectly, and in Occasion Avenue where Kiske could slide into.

This could have been a good occasion to do a "third" Keeper album, doing a "fourth" would be overkill... plus when you have Kiske back you have already all the publicity needed, no actual need to make another Keeper to pump up the album.

I wouldn't be totally opposed to another Keeper concept in some way, but I assume they'll just concentrate on writing a stand alone album full of killer songs.

And yes, King for a 1000 Years should be in the next setlist, story wise it's a bit difficult to split it among singer because it's entirely sung from the point of view of the devil, but as you said Kai Hansen could take some spots here and there.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Was there even a Keeper "concept" to begin with? As far as I'm aware, the Keeper albums don't tell a story, & don't really have many musical similarities unless you count having a 13 minute song as a concept.

A fourth Keeper album would be nothing but a marketing gimmick imo, & I think that'd be a little disappointing, especially if it's as full of forced references as Pumpkins United was.

[MirrorMask]

Well, there kinda is a story if you want to. The album themselves are not concept albums, but in Halloween there's this evil lurking around and "Follow the sign", as short as it is, became kinda a recurring theme, being quoted in other songs.

Keeper of the Seven Keys is the actual main song of the saga, and in King for a 1000 Years the devil imprisoned by the seven keys breaks free finding a human alley, and in My Life for One More day we find the Keeper himself who urges the fight to carry on.

[TAC]

A fourth Keeper album would be nothing but a marketing gimmick imo, & I think that'd be a little disappointing, especially if it's as full of forced references as Pumpkins United was.

Well, I thought The Legacy album was a marketing gimmick. I think when bands do this, to me it says they're out of ideas. I bought it anyway and listened a few times, but my prejudices held me back.


But my deep dive on the Deris Era has revealed a couple things about The Legacy. One, it's one of the strongest top to bottom albums of this era, and two, it might have my favorite song as well.



Bands are full of marketing gimmicks. Hell, it's how DT has planned their last two tours.

[MirrorMask]

Maybe they should have just called the album another way, and still keep the couple (or three? I remember reading about The Invisible Man being about the Keeper too...) of songs about the Keeper and that's it. It would have fared better.

Gamma Ray's Land of the Free II is an amazing album, but nobody takes it seriously because of it being a sequel.

[The Walrus]

Maybe they should have just called the album another way, and still keep the couple (or three? I remember reading about The Invisible Man being about the Keeper too...) of songs about the Keeper and that's it. It would have fared better.

Gamma Ray's Land of the Free II is an amazing album, but nobody takes it seriously because of it being a sequel.

A shame too because Land of the Free 2 is the best post-2000s Gamma Ray record.

[TAC]

Gamma Ray's Land of the Free II is an amazing album, but nobody takes it seriously because of it being a sequel.

True. Good call.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Operation Mindcrime II

[gazinwales]

Maybe they should have just called the album another way, and still keep the couple (or three? I remember reading about The Invisible Man being about the Keeper too...) of songs about the Keeper and that's it. It would have fared better.

Gamma Ray's Land of the Free II is an amazing album, but nobody takes it seriously because of it being a sequel.

I never bothered with it, never heard it all, not a note.
On these recommendations I have just ordered a used copy.

[TAC]

You won't be disappointed. 

[TAC]

I'm on vacation but I'm still listening.

Going through Rabbit and The Legacy, these are the songs moving on...

Rabbit Don't Come Easy

Just A Little Sign
Open Your Life
The Tune
Sun 4 The World
Hell Was Made In Heaven
Listen To The Flies


Keeper: The Legacy

King For 1000 Years
The Invisible Man
Born On Judgement Day
Pleasure Drone
Silent Rain

Occasion Avenue
Do You Know What You Are Fighting For
The Shade In The Shadow
My Life For One More Day

[wolfking]

Land of the Free 2 just missed out on my top 50.  It was 51.  Amazing album.

Tim, I'm glad that 5 Rabbit songs are moving on.

[Polarbear]

Land of the Free 2 just missed out on my top 50.  It was 51.  Amazing album.

Tim, I'm glad that 5 Rabbit songs are moving on.

Shame that "Open Your Life" isn't moving up. My favorite from Rabbit and probably among my top.10 of Deris era.

Has anyone seen the new trailer for "United Alive"? Looks spectacular! Can't wait to buy the blu-ray, and play it through a good sound system.

[TAC]

Tim, I'm glad that 5 Rabbit songs are moving on.

Yes. Not sure how much further they'll get. I'm ultimately trying to get to a Top 10. Decisions will be quite tough moving forward. There are only 3 songs I know for sure that are making the Top 10. Some songs I am moving forward not because they have a chance of making it, but because I think they should at least be Top 25 worthy. I feel like this is more where the Rabbit songs fit.

Shame that "Open Your Life" isn't moving up. My favorite from Rabbit and probably among my top.10 of Deris era.

I know, right? It was basically between that and Sun 4 The World. I felt like I had to cut one song here. There isn't much wiggle room between most of these songs. They are all basically equally as good. Getting it down to a ore manageable list will only be more painful.

[The Walrus]

It was basically between that and Sun 4 The World. I felt like I had to cut one song here.

You chose the wrong one!

[TAC]

OK...you guys happy now? 

[wolfking]

Tim not selecting Open Your Life shows the Rabbit naysayers how strong it really is.

[TAC]

Next round of cuts:


Gambling With The Devil

The Saints
Paint A New World
Final Fortune
The Bells Of The 7 Hells
Dreambound
Heaven Tells No Lies
We Unite
Find My Freedom
See The Night


7 Sinners

Who Is Mr. Madman?
Long Live The King
You Stupid Mankind
If A Mountain Could Talk
My Sacrifice
Far In The Future
I'm Free

Straight Out Of Hell

World Of War
Burning Sun
Waiting For The Thunder
Years
Make Fire Catch The Fly
Church Breaks Down


My God Given Right

Heroes
My God Given Right
Swing Of A Fallen World
Creatures In Heaven
Claws
-

[TAC]

So here are the 34 songs vying for the Top 25.

Give me a week, and I'll do the Top 25 in a quick countdown style.


Master Of The Rings

Still We Go

The Time Of The Oath

Power
Before The War
Kings Will Be Kings
Mission Motherland
The Time Of The Oath

Better Than Raw

Falling Higher
Hey Lord
Don't Spit On My Mind
Midnight Sun
Back On The Ground

The Dark Ride

All Over The Nations
Salvation
We Damn The Night
Immortal
The Dark Ride

Rabbit Don't Come Easy

Just A Little Sign
Open Your Life
The Tune
Hell Was Made In Heaven
Listen To The Flies


Keeper: The Legacy

King For 1000 Years
The Invisible Man
Born On Judgement Day
Silent Rain
Occasion Avenue
My Life For One More Day


Gambling With The Devil

The Saints
Paint A New World
Final Fortune
The Bells Of The 7 Hells
Dreambound
Heaven Tells No Lies
We Unite
Find My Freedom


7 Sinners

Who Is Mr. Madman?
Long Live The King
If A Mountain Could Talk
Far In The Future

Straight Out Of Hell

Make Fire Catch The Fly
Church Breaks Down


My God Given Right

My God Given Right
Swing Of A Fallen World
Creatures In Heaven

[TAC]

I must say what an absolute beast Andi Deris is. Holy shit. I think I mentioned it before, but this has been a fucking goldmine that I have been sitting on.

I'm also working on an album ranking and I am fucking clueless how it will turn out. The material is so consistently good, it's really hard to separate.

[wolfking]

I must say what an absolute beast Andi Deris is. Holy shit. I think I mentioned it before, but this has been a fucking goldmine that I have been sitting on.

I'm also working on an album ranking and I am fucking clueless how it will turn out. The material is so consistently good, it's really hard to separate.

Yep. Brilliant era of Helloween.  Andi kept the band going and produced loads of good music.  That's why I'm partial to the Deris era.

[TAC]

I must say what an absolute beast Andi Deris is. Holy shit. I think I mentioned it before, but this has been a fucking goldmine that I have been sitting on.

I'm also working on an album ranking and I am fucking clueless how it will turn out. The material is so consistently good, it's really hard to separate.

Yep. Brilliant era of Helloween.  Andi kept the band going and produced loads of good music.  That's why I'm partial to the Deris era.

Not that long ago, I would've read that and wondered WTF. But I totally understand it now. They made ten extremely strong albums. That's a hell of a run.

Having lived through the Kiske Era, it was such a mind blowing experience.

I was listening to The Legacy live album and they included A Tale That Wasn't Right. I mean, Deris has balls, I'll give him that. There's no need to include that. That's a thankless exercise. But he fucking nails it.

[wolfking]

I must say what an absolute beast Andi Deris is. Holy shit. I think I mentioned it before, but this has been a fucking goldmine that I have been sitting on.

I'm also working on an album ranking and I am fucking clueless how it will turn out. The material is so consistently good, it's really hard to separate.

Yep. Brilliant era of Helloween.  Andi kept the band going and produced loads of good music.  That's why I'm partial to the Deris era.

Not that long ago, I would've read that and wondered WTF. But I totally understand it now. They made ten extremely strong albums. That's a hell of a run.

Having lived through the Kiske Era, it was such a mind blowing experience.

I was listening to The Legacy live album and they included A Tale That Wasn't Right. I mean, Deris has balls, I'll give him that. There's no need to include that. That's a thankless exercise. But he fucking nails it.

That's what it all boils down too mate.  As I've said before, The Dark Ride was my first Helloween album.  Andi was my introduction to them and at the time, Rabbit was the current release.  So I've been along for the rest of the ride.

[devieira73]

https://youtu.be/VAVeG4KS0JM
Well, INCREDIBLE, again 🤘🤘🤘
All this discussion about their discography, made me listen all the albums in these weeks... A LOT of great music, many great albums and my favourite maybe is Better Than Raw... perfect for my taste!

[TAC]

https://youtu.be/VAVeG4KS0JM
Well, INCREDIBLE, again 🤘🤘🤘

Wow that gave me goosebumps. Seeing them open with that was one of the greatest concert experiences of my life. The band was so joyful together, and this video really captures that.





I have my list narrowed down to 30. A Top 25 and 5 HM's. Damn this is so tough.

[TAC]

Got my Top 25 done and my albums ranked. Amazing! 

Countdown starts on Monday.

[wolfking]

Got my Top 25 done and my albums ranked. Amazing! 

Countdown starts on Monday.

Booyah!!

[TAC]

So when I started this, I think I had 66 songs make the first initial cut. That averages to over 6 songs per album. I'd say that is quite a statement on the 10 album Deris Era discography. And I would say that even leaving some songs off at that point was difficult.

I ended up trimming it down to 30 songs. With the Top 25 starting tomorrow, I thought I'd leave five Honorable Mentions tonight..


The Tune (Rabbit Don't Come Easy) (Weikath)

The first time I listened to this it didn't really click, but all of a sudden...bang! In my head, I kept hearing Kai sing this. I think it would be perfect for him. This song really just hung around long enough to make the HM list.


Silent Rain (Keeper: The Legacy) (Deris/Gerstner)

This song really jumped put at me. I thought it would end up a bit higher, but there was tough competition. Nice to see Sasha with a writing credit on the list. Excellent tune that closes the first disc of The Legacy.


My Life For One More Day (Keeper: The Legacy) (Deris/Grosskopf)

A closer of mini-epic proportions. An excellent song I love the pre chorus. Classic melodic Helloween. Starting with the solo section, the second half of this song is particularly strong.


Find My Freedom (Gambling With The Devil) (Grosskopf)

The first B Side to make the list. Fantastic song from Markus. Amazing chorus. It really lifts the song. A case where a B side is stronger than a number of album tracks. Excellent instrumental section.


Immortal (The Dark Ride) (Deris)

A shame that this song didn't make the Top 25. This song is so unique for this band. I feel like this song is still rising and if I did this list a year from now, it will have moved up quite a bit. The chorus is really moving. Fantastic stuff!


And counting down the albums...
Starting with a bit of a surprise:


10. Master Of The Rings



Master Of the Rings is basically responsible for me giving up on Helloween. I bought the two lead singles and thought the album tracks were so weak. Plus I had no idea what to make of Andi Deris. He was so different to Kiske, and not all that pleasurable on the ears. If their first album out of the shoot was The Time Of the Oath, my history with the band might have been quite different. It is easily the least represented album in my countdown.

9. Straight Out Of Hell



Another album not well represented on my list.  I don't not like it. But they have so many better albums as a whole. There are a number of decent tunes on this, but there's nothing great.

[wolfking]

Looking forward to this.  Find My Freedom being rated this high is surprising.  I always preferred See the Night so I'll have to go back and listen to that one.

I relatively agree with those two albums being near the bottom, however MGGR would be at the very bottom.

[TAC]

And now...the TAC Deris Era Top 25....



25. Heaven Tells No Lies (Gambling With the Devil) (Grosskopf)

Totally cool straight ahead rocker by Markus. I really like the chorus to this song and I think it's the best part. Really nice guitar solo section. I believe that's Sasha that starts it. He has a great tone. Especially during the Wolf Hoffman-esque  section right before the last part..


24. The Invisible Man (Keeper: The Legacy)  (Gerstner)

Nice intro by Markus. Andi sounds awesome on this. So versatile. Typical, but awesome chorus. The mellow part in the middle reminds me of Spinal Tap's Stonhenge. Did Helloween have midgets come out dancing? Love Sasha's solo there. It's JP-esque. This song has a surprising depth to it.


23.The Swing Of A Fallen World (My God Given Right) (Deris)

I think this song is really unique for Helloween. Gone are the double bass melodic choruses. This song has a sinister bad ass groove. I found my self totally headbanging. As with Immortal, also written by Andi Deris, it has a really odd chorus but it totally works. I'm not a fan of mid tempo mumbo jumbo, but this song has a pace that eclipses most songs like it. It grooves, but doesn't plod. Really interesting instrumental section that picks up nicely, and then bam! Sinister! I see in this thread that My God Given Right isn't very heralded, but it has a couple of gems, and this is one of them.


22. Who Is Mr. Madman? (7 Sinners) (Gerstner)

Impressive composition from Sasha. Andi sounds great on this, especially in the prechorus. He has an amazing voice, and what I like about this song is that he uses all of it. This song really picks you up and doesn't let you go until the end.


21. Far In The Future (7 Sinners) (Deris)

Love the chorus. Love the Thin Lizzy style guitar. Andi does a great job of fitting his style into Helloween's. It always seems to have a unique twist to it. This song really gets me going, and I think the chorus is absolutely glorious.



For the albums..

8. My God Given Right



I don't think this is a great album on the whole, but I think it has a number of really strong tunes, and I find it a bit better than the previous two. It also might be my favorite album cover from this era. I think for the most part, the album isn't too serious. It's fairly easy on the ears, if unspectacular.

7. Rabbit Don't Come Easy



Kade, I know you'll be disappointed with this, but let me put it this way. I like MGGR. I really like Rabbit. And I love everything else to come. This is a tough discog to rank because it's so consistently strong. This feels transitional though, with no real drummer on board, and Sasha's first album. I definitely like a lot of this, but they had much better music to come with their next couple of albums.

[The Walrus]

MOTR and SOOH under MGGR? Chameleon and Pink Bubbles above all of these? Can I buy some pot off you?

[TAC]

MOTR and SOOH under MGGR? Chameleon and Pink Bubbles above all of these? Can I buy some pot off you?

This is just a Deris Era countdown.

I find MOTR really weak. SOOH and MGGR are generally equal, but a gun to my head, I'm taking MGGR.


I've been thinking about how I'd merge their total discography. I may do that when it's all over.

[TAC]

Can I buy some pot off you?

If I had any, I'd give it to you, but I haven't touched the stuff in over 18 years. (Which coincidentally was when I stopped watching series TV.) 

[The Walrus]

Gun to my head or MGGR, I'm taking the bullet.