Official Helloween thread v. Pumpkins United

[jjrock88]

I thought Helloween was on fire with Time of the Oath, Better than Raw and the Dark Ride.  I was really pumped to hear the Rabbit disc and when I did, it was a let down.  I've come to like it, but to me, it was a drop in quality.  IMO, every Helloween disc since then has been a solid listen, but hasn't wowed me since Dark Ride.

[NotePad]

Hey TAC, do you live in america, or canada? Because i'v always wondered how popular they REALLY were when those 2 keepers first came out. I heard the were huge, and were on the brink of, say, Maiden or even Metallica like success. Then of course pink bubbles, and north america didnt even get a release of that for a long time. How was it back then?

[TAC]

I live in a half hour south of Boston, but in the late 80's, I grew up closer to Cape Cod. I saw Helloween's on the Keepers Pt.1 tour. They opened the Grim Reaper/Armored Saint/Helloween tour. I saw it in Providence on 8/24/87. These were club shows.
I can post pics when I get home.

They toured Keepers Pt 2 on an MTV Headbangers Ball tour. It was headlined by Anthrax, and I forget the third band. I'm pretty sure Grapow did this tour. I can't remember why but I missed it when they came to Boston. They played the Orpheum (theater).

I would also add that they were never huge, nor were they ever on the cusp of being huge.

[NotePad]

I would also add that they were never huge, nor were they ever on the cusp of being huge.

They most certainly were!

Well, I'v heard things. The 2 keepers albums sold very well in America, they even got to tour there, which wouldn't happen again for a long time. Record label issues prevented Pink Bubbles from getting a good release and attention etc. Wasn't released in America for a long time.

Now, Pink Bubbles was not a bad album. After the success of Keepers, their next one certainly would have brought them even more success if they pushed it more and gave it a better release. I don't think it has anything to do with the quality of the music on it. There was a little less 'power' metal in it but was still good. If Pink Bubbles had sounder like Keepers pt 3 it wouldn't have made much difference because it still would not be available to many fans.

But, actually, i guess the change in musical style probably did play a bigger part then i'd like to think. Chameleon lost them a lot of fans. But Pink Bubbles if think should appeal to a lot of keepers style fans.

[TAC]

I would also add that they were never huge, nor were they ever on the cusp of being huge.

They most certainly were!

Sorry, man, but in the US at least they most certainly were not.
They were 3rd on the bill on a club tour, and 3rd again on the MTV tour. That was it. The edited Halloween video was played on Headbanger's Ball, but it was so stupid, it did not do them justice.

When I got Pink Bubbles, it was extremely disappointing. And I mean extremely! On the first pass it had a few good songs, but none in the Keepers' league. I will say that it has aged very well and I love the album.

[kirksnosehair]

Kirk, those first two Keepers albums are TAC Classics. I mean they are intregal parts of my musical life. I was on them when they came out and they have never gotten old.

When Kiske left, I bought the first two CD singles with Deris, Mr Ego and Perfect Gentlemen. I just could not deal with the change of voice. So I ignored Deris era Helloween up until a couple of years ago. I still don't care for Master Of The Rings, the first with Deris, but Time Of The Oath is MUCH better, and if you like The Dark Ride, I'd recommend that.

I'll give "Time Of The Oath" a listen.  Thanks, bro. 


As for their popularity in the states, I don't think it compares to Maiden or Metallica. 

[NotePad]

Well, all I'm really trying to get across is that they COULD have been much more popular then they are. Ok, so maybe Pink Bubbles wasn't keepers style. Personally I prefer Pink Bubbles to both keepers pt 1 and 2. I'v never been a big fan of them, other then Eagle Fly Free and a couple others. Pink Bubbles on the other hand is more for me. Part of this has to do with Roland Grapow joining. I much prefer songs he's written over songs Kai Hansen's written, not only with Helloween. Kids of the Century, The Chance, Mankind are my favorites off it. They're not power metal, or at least keeper style power metal, but they're awesome songs.

I'm not the only person who thinks that Helloween could have been very, very big if they kept going in the direction they were going. I don't think they ever would be as big as Metallica, but maybe Megadeth. People loved Kiske's vocals, the guitar duels, anthem like songs; people still and will always consider them classic albums. Hansen left because they were becoming too successful for him too handle. If they kept in the direction of Keepers, I very much believe they would have ended up headling tours with a band like Maiden.

Helloween is my favorite band. I only ever listen to the stuff with andi deris and feel like he helped bring out the best in the band. But I can't deny the fact that they would be much more successful had weiki and co capitalized on the success of Keepers and kept at it. Sometimes I wonder why they went in another direction with pink bubbles.

[TAC]

Notepad, do you mind if I ask how old you are? I'm just trying to figure out your perspective, and when you became a fan.

I can tell you that I was a huge Helloween fan by the time Pink Bubbles came out. If you asked me in 1988 what my favorite album was, I might've said Keepers Pt.2. I had the same feeling about Pink Bubbles as I did about Metallica's Black album, which ironically, I bought both together on the same day. Both were such huge let downs. That's probably hard to understand, but that's how it was. I know some Metallica fans who came into the band in the 90's cannot understand how TBA could be considered a disappointment, but to me, it was, and the same goes for a lot of old school metallers.
Now both have aged extremely well and both are excellent albums.

Metallica and Maiden are both on different planes completely. I'm not sure Helloween was ever going to reach that status, no matter what. I do agree with you that they had an excellent band, but there were too many issues in keeping the lineup consistent. Losing Hansen, and then Kiske, and obviously with what happened with Ingo, the band just imploded.

But interestingly enough, Weikath found a great partner in Deris. They have made tremendous music over the years and have built a solid reputation for the Helloween brand, and that it is no longer dependant on the Kiske era as it's identity. In fact, the Kiske era is secondary.
Now I'm a Kiske fan and those albums are my favorites, but Helloween really emerged from the ashes as a more serious, consistent, and focused band.

[wolfking]

That last paragraph is so damn true.

[NotePad]

Okay. I'm 24. And i don't want to seem like someone who thinks they know it all. This is just how i see ir..or how i'd like it to be. I got into them thru Dark Ride, maybe a year after it was released, and awhile before Rabbit was released. When rabbit came out i was disappointed somewhat. I enjoyed parts of it but was let down because Dark Ride was where i thought the band should be. But now when i listen to it i see what they were doing: they were trying to do power metal the way the band used to. Helloween, like most bands, describe each album as back to their roots with each release. But i found this very true with Rabbit. For the most part the music was classic power metal pumpkin style. I can totally see why the did The Legacy next, their line up called for it. Weki and Sascha can play as partners the way Weiki did with Kai back when.

What you said about Deris and Weiki is very true. They clearly get along very well, way better then he did with Kiske. It's clearly much better for the band. And ironically enough, Kai and Kiske have that new band Unisonic together now. Havn't listened to it, but best bet for people who want keepers style music is to listened to them. Helloween with Deris has gone in a new direction. I think they have really found their sound with the last 2 albums. I liked The Legacy, but i think its better for everyone if they just evolve and try not to look at the past, which i think they accomplished with their last 2. I think they should have waited a few more years before doing The Legacy. But its all good either way

[NotePad]

I love Andi deris' voice, but wouldn't Tobias Sammet be fucking great for Helloween. I'm just checkin out some of his stuff right now. Avantasia is interesting, but Edguy is more of a band so i think i'm more likely to buy one of their albums. Can anybody recommend me a good Edguy album to buy?

But yea, Tobias Sammet is clearly influenced by Kiske, but he also has at times a rasp similar to Deris, and can reach those high notes like Kiske very very easily ( i will admit that when deris sings high it sounds quite forced i must say). If Deris ever dies or something they should contact this guy 

[bl5150]

Edguy diehards seem to love Vain Glory Opera and the early stuff but I prefer the latter more melodic metal stuff -  you can't go too far wrong with any of them but I'd start with either Rocket Ride,  Mandrake or Age of the Joker.

[wolfking]

Can anybody recommend me a good Edguy album to buy?

But yea, Tobias Sammet is clearly influenced by Kiske, but he also has at times a rasp similar to Deris, and can reach those high notes like Kiske very very easily ( i will admit that when deris sings high it sounds quite forced i must say). If Deris ever dies or something they should contact this guy 

Mandrake.  I listened to it today actually, amazing power metal. 

I believe Tobias' main influence along with Kiske is Dickinson.

[TAC]

For Edguy, I'd start at the beginning with Kingdom Of Madness and The Savage Poetry.

[wolfking]

I don't think Kingdom of Madness is a good starting point for Edguy, but on the other hand, the remake of Savage Poetry is amazing.

[kirksnosehair]

Never did give this band a good listen.  I should rectify that.

[TAC]

KOM is filled with energy and heaviness. It's raw, but powerful. I love it.

I'm with you on Mandrake, Wolf, as it really is their signature album, but since Notepad is a Helloween fan, there is no album where the classic Helloween influence can be found than on KOM.

[NotePad]

From what I have heard of them, there's something about them that reminds me actually more of recent Helloween rather then classic helloween. Is lavatory love machine on rocket ride? Rocket ride is one I'd like to buy first. See- lavatory love machine; sounds like something something on Rabbit. But I know Tobias is very influenced by Kiske. This Tobias guy can sing I tell you! And a great voice. His stage presence is great too, definitely musta come from watching Bruce D. I doubt he is influenced by Deris.
(was just watching edguy and Helloween live performances. Man Andi cannot hold a candle to someone like Kiske live, or this Tobias guy. Andi is just so....off, so much of the time live)

Edgy is great. Would love to see them on a tour with Helloween. I'm interested in all their stuff, but is their early stuff REALLY like early helloween?

[wolfking]

Rocket Ride is where the band started to move out of the power metal and into a more hard rock sort of thing.  Rocket Ride had mixed reviews, but I love it, lots of good material.

[NotePad]

Like helloween, one of the reasons edguy appeals to me is because they are power metal but don't write about fantasy type things.

And their catchy sing-along chorus' and songs remind me of Helloween, recent helloween. Why dont these bands get more commercial attention? Here in the us and canada, if songs like lavatory love machine or Burning Sun or the song Straight Out of Hell were played on a rock radio station, i guarantee there would be tons of people digging it and looking them up and requesting them. Even though edguys recent stuff is more rock orientated, it still sounds like metal to me and i would still classify it as power metal.

[NotePad]

There was an article i read recently written around when the Dark Ride came out, comparing it to Alice Coopers album 'Brutal Planet'. Apparently that one has downtuned guitars and just an overall vibe similar to dark ride. (I always thought in Feed My Frankenstein' Cooper has moments of sounding like Deris). I'm not too familiar with Cooper, but i listened to parts of Brutal Planet online and i can see where the comment comes from.

I was thinking of buying this brutal planet album. I love Dark Ride very much Anyone heard this Cooper CD?

[TAC]

Oddly, I was thinking of Alice Cooper while listening to 7 Sinners today.

I'm DTF's biggest Alice fan. You might like Brutal Planet, Notepad. I didn't like it at first, but it has aged pretty well. I love like 4 or 5 songs, but then don't care for the rest.

[wolfking]

Brutal Planet is a pretty kick ass album.  The DVD form that tour is great too.

[NotePad]

The sample I'v heard sound pretty  good. I may buy it if i ever come across it.

I'm still wanting to buy 7 Sinners. Last time i went to a store that actually has a metal section i was planning on getting it but wasn't there, but got Straight outta Hell instead Which as i'v made clear, is a fuckin awesome record. Apparently 7 Sinners has a very similar sound, which i find interesting cuz it seems with each release Helloween have a new sound, u know? the guitars and everything always sound very different. Like Straight out of hell is obviously very heavy, so was dark ride, but the guitar sounds differ a lot. Dark Ride sounds like the guitars were tuned very low, whereas the new one was very heavy but didn't have the low tuning sound. that's just how i perceive it.

7 sinners is supposed to be less 'happy'. Straight out of hell wasn't necessarily happy tho, just noticeably more positive lyrically, and i guess harmonically too ;p.  Sounds like 7 sinners is the closest we'll ever get to another Dark Ride. Oh i'd be so happy if they announced they were writing a record titled 'The Dark Ride PT 2'. Goddamn i'd be so happy.

[wolfking]

7 Sinners is a pretty heavy record, although the production kills it a little, it's heavy but sounds quite thin.  Amazing album though.

[ZKX-2099]

7 Sinners is the best Deris fronted Helloween album.

[TAC]

7 Sinners is a pretty heavy record, although the production kills it a little, it's heavy but sounds quite thin.  Amazing album though.

Plus it is mixed so freaking loud. Similar to Gambling. It might actually be worse.

[NotePad]

I don`t own gambling. But i`v listeened to songs from it, on youtube and a downloaded copy a friend had. The production sound on both i noticed didn`t sound very great, kind without depth. Is this how the actual album sounds normally?

As you may be able to tell from my rambling, i'v been going thru a new helloween phase. Watching videos, buy new albums i'v missed when i can find them (not many stores with metal sections anymore where i live).

Watching their live performances, seems like Gerstner kinda steals the show most of the time from Weikath. Weikath is a great player, (and songwriter). Maybe it's always been this way, as he seems layed back on stage. Even on songs he wrote himself, Sacha seems to get to playe the better solos. Also watching their Wacken 2011 performance, they played mostly kiske sung songs. I find that odd. Doesn't play to Andi's strengh. Why did they do this? Is it like this with most shows and live performances?

Oh and Burning Suns is sooo great! Andi's vocals remind me of his vocals on Deliver Us (why don't they play that song live? How could that'v been a bonus track??? i mean, fuck!!!! the hell? At least Grosskopf's recently are making the actual albums)

[wolfking]

7 Sinners is a pretty heavy record, although the production kills it a little, it's heavy but sounds quite thin.  Amazing album though.

Plus it is mixed so freaking loud. Similar to Gambling. It might actually be worse.

The high pass filters that they ran through Gambling too is very annoying.  Shame these two albums suffered from teh production.  The new one was a lot better, but not perfect by any means.

[NotePad]

I own the newest one and think it sounds great, including overall production sound. From all i'v heard, i expect 7 Sinners to be very similar. I know the SOUND of the band will be very similar, but is the production the same (is it just as crunchy and 'full'?) Same question about Gambling.

[NotePad]

Don't want to start a new thread for this, and it's helloween related.

Has anyone heard the Unisonic record, with Kiske, Kai Hansen, and some Pink Cream 69 guys? I havn't yet. Place Vendome was a precursor to Unisonic, and i have heard their album 'Streets of Blood' (blood was it? i think). They, Place Vendome, i'v learned are an AOR band. I'm not too familar with AOR, but i get an idea what it means. The Place Vendome songs are definately radio friendly and soft rock/hard rock mix. Not bad, but i can see why Kiske would do it cuz it's poppy.

So I was surprised to heard about Hansen being in Unisonic, for the obvious reason, but also because i assumed Unisonic's music would be AOR and very much just Place Vendome with a different name. I have yet to hear Unisonic. I'd like to hear what people think here. Is it at all metal? is it just a continuation of Place Vendome?

Oh and just found a video of Unisonic live playing a place vendome song. was surprised to see Kiske playing guitar AND singing. Does he only do this live and not on the album? And has Hansen played live with them yet, since he was late joining?

[bl5150]

The whole Unisonic album is on Youtube so I won't waste space trying to describe it in detail - suffice it to say overall it's more metal than Place Vendome.   IMHO the first two Place Vendome albums are far stronger than Unisonic in the songwriting department and they are not all poppy AOR.  Sure there is a plenty of that but I don't consider this sort of stuff pop/AOR

Sign Of The Times   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpbGLCdyNPQ

Cross The Line https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12znzF4hHd4

Dancer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v4Vmgj7CFk

I wouldn't be surprised if Helloween fans (and I like a lot of Helloween material) considered Unisonic more their cup of tea but I prefer Place Vendome by some way.   - and one of the few Frontiers project bands that has really done it for me.

Oh........the second album was Streets of Fire

[wolfking]

Notepad, the production of the new album is a lot better than the last two albums.

The Unisonic album was pretty good, but I think there was too much hype around it.  It's pretty much halfway between Place Vendome and Helloween, but leaning a lot more to Place Vendome.

The first Place Vendome album is a melodic rock classic, brilliant stuff.  Streets of Fire was a lot more AOR, but was pretty good.  The new one is solid but nothing groundbreaking.

[bl5150]

Notepad, the production of the new album is a lot better than the last two albums.

The Unisonic album was pretty good, but I think there was too much hype around it.  It's pretty much halfway between Place Vendome and Helloween, but leaning a lot more to Place Vendome.

The first Place Vendome album is a melodic rock classic, brilliant stuff.  Streets of Fire was a lot more AOR, but was pretty good.  The new one is solid but nothing groundbreaking.

I haven't listened to the third PV properly yet but even the previews were enough to recognise a massive ripoff of one of their own songs from an earlier album.  That doesn't inspire confidence..............I will get around to listening to it but my initial impression from the previews and a few tracks is that it's rushed compared to the first two.  I remember they were advertising around the traps for songs not that long before it was released too .

[NotePad]

Dennis Ward wrote most of the music for the first Place Vendome album, not the next two. Is it really that.....AOR? Not bad though, gotta say, although it'll probably never actually be on radio!

I like coming here and bouncing my ideas of other Helloween fans. I'v been watching a lot of live videos of them. I love Andi, but goddamn does he make an ass of himself onstage! He just so goofy sometimes! Does he not realize how he looks! The hand gestures are just too much, most of the time they don't even make sense. Am I right!?!

At their Wacken open air show played mostly kiske songs. Do people really go there wanting to hear the keeper songs, knowing Andi will be singing them, and just doesn't suit them? If I ever had the ability to go to a Helloween concert, i honestly would much prefer to hear only post-Chameleon material.

And why does Sascha get all the good solos?!? It bugs me, everytime i see a show of theirs. Weikath is really just supporting Gerstner these days. Was it like this with Grapow?