Official Helloween thread v. Pumpkins United

[NotePad]

All right! Helloween. Love these guys. Just bought they're newest album after ignoring them since Rabbit Dont Come Easy sucked. Now i remember why i loved them so much. Heavy, catchy. They know how to write a chorus that sticks.

I know a lot of people will say only bother with the Keepers albums. Those people wrong. I prefer the Andi Deris stuff. I mean, in a way he really did save the band. After Chameleon those guys were fucked. I liked it btw ;p

My one problem is that the guys don't really seem to write songs as a band. Roland Grapow is a fantastic song writer, and Uli Kusch was also, and Andi.....and Weikath.....kinda. But the way the wrote song mostly individually i think caused a lot of theis albums to be all over the place. Although I loved it. When they kicked Roland Grapow out, they made a big mistake and wrote Rabbit dont come easy. I remember when Masterplans first CD came out and compared it to Rabbit...i was kinda embarrased for the helloween guys. Sasch Gerstner is nowhere near as good a songwriter as him.

Anyways The Dark Ride is still their crowning achievement in my opinion. I gave up when those guys were kicked out and Rabbit was written. But recently i checked out Keepter Legacy and actually loved it, and Step Out of Hell was really quite awesome. When these guys decide on a direction together and do it, it works. That's why Dark Ride was so great, they was the dark album they wanted to make no matter what they say now.

Anyone else a fan of Helloween? I cant find anywhere else to chat with people who listen to them. What's your favorite album? Do you think they made a mistake kicking out Roland Grapow considering they had just written their best album with him (i know, my opinion)?

[wolfking]

Rabbit is probably my fav album from them actually.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=17468.0

[wolfking]

In answer to your question, I liked the Dark Ride lineup and TDR was the album that introduced me into the band, but the last 5 albums they have done with this lineup is incredible, so no, I'm happy with the decision now, but at the time didn't understand it.

[bl5150]

I've sorta lost track of Helloween - in the Kiske years I always thought of them more as a "compilation band" - I could make a great compilation from all their albums but didn't really rate any of the albums as classics.  I did like many of the classic songs like "I Want out" and really enjoyed a track called Mankind from "Bubbles".

I thought Master of The Rings was a strong album and was really on board then with Deris, but I found Time of The Oath a big disappointment and dropped off the bandwagon then.   Amongst a whole mountain of discs I have here that I've never even played yet is Better Than Raw and The Dark Ride which I bought only due to word of mouth at some stage.   If wolfking's taste is anything like mine then sounds like I should remedy that situation.

[NotePad]

I actually consider Better Than Raw one of their best. Any Pink Bubbles had some really great songs on it. I't wasn't received very well, coming out after Keepers. But I also think it got next to no marketing so many people didnt even know it was out there. And maybe the song weren't as "power metal" as the previous albums. But Mankind, The Chance, those are great songs. And they are Roland grapow songs.

Grapow wanted the band to continue in the direction of Dark Ride, that was one of the reasons he was kicked out. But the funny thing is that Deris wrote most of the songs on it.
I never understood why the song Deliver Us wasn't put on Dark Ride as more than a Japanese bonus track. Helloween fans know what im talkin about

[wolfking]

Yeah, Better Than Raw is an amazing album and was my fav for a while before Rabbit came out.  Both bonus songs on the Dark Ride, Deliver Us and Crowds were spectactuar and should have been on the album.

[jjrock88]

Dark Ride and Better than Raw are my two favorite Helloween discs.  Master, Time of the Oath and the two Keeper albums are close behind.

[NotePad]

Yeah, I'v always loved Deliver Us and especially Madness of The Crowds. That was awesome. They wrote that album conscientiously trying to write a dark and heavy album, and they really succeeded. I am one of many that consider Dark Ride their best. Andi Deris seems to write most of their songs, he's pretty much the leader, and he can clearly write whatever he wants and succeed. I liked 'All Over The Nation' and 'Salvation', they were written by Michael Weikath, but they clearly shouldn't have been on that particular album. I love them, but it's really odd to me that those made the cut but not Deliver Us or Madness.

I wish they continued in that direction, but since they're Helloween I don't exactly blame them. I just wish they didn't kick out Grapow. I think Masterplans S/T album is a taste of what Helloween's post-Dark Ride album would've been like if he had stayed. But, Step Out Of Hell is pretty awesome though.

I always thought Helloween could have been huge had they had better management after Keepers 2 was released and toured. They sold a lot in the US. They fucked up.

By the way, is there an Official Helloween message Board anymore? There is this really crappy one called Your Turn that no one uses but has been around forever. That's the only one i can find. Their official forum seems to have disappeared! 

[wolfking]

I think the darker production and undertones of the album really helped All Over Nations and Salvation.  I think they fit really well into the album.

[NotePad]

To the person that said Weikath doesn't get enough credit, I don't agree. At some point after Andi Deris joined the band he seemed to give main writing duties over to Deris and Roland Grapow. And they write great songs, that's why Im still so disappointed that Grapow was kicked out. He wrote more songs and much better songs then Weikath.

Weikath just seems lazy. Other then his 2 on dark ride, his songs are usually the ones I like the least and often feel out of place. Although, to his credit, some of his do feel very classic Helloween. But they always feel out of place.

What do you guys think of Legacy? Do you think it deserves to be a Keepers album? And who do you think is the better songwriter, Grapow or Gerstner? (I'll never get over kicking the guy out)

[wolfking]

Hey man, Grapow has been out for years, time to move on I think.    And really, the last Masterplan album was great, but what they have been doing the last three albums, I prefer what Helloween have been doing in comparison.

Legacy is a tremendous album and I'm fine with it having the Keeper name to it.  Been listening through some Helloween albums the last couple of days and I gotta say I love what the band are doing now.  I think Sascha has been an amazing asset to the band.  I do think Andi is the strongest writer now in the band.  Weiki is solid enough and adds some variety to the albums, but yeah, he's been playing it safe now for a while.

[TAC]

Although I have them all, I am not really that well versed in the Deris era. I do like the Dark Ride though. I think I'll put a few of the Deris CDs in the car for the next week.

[wolfking]

Although I have them all, I am not really that well versed in the Deris era. I do like the Dark Ride though. I think I'll put a few of the Deris CDs in the car for the next week.

Do it man, they are incredibly good.

[NotePad]

Ok so i posted this on the only Helloween board i can find, called Your Turn, but I'm not sure anyone goes there.

I remember a really old post at the original helloween.org. I went and used the website the Wayback Machine, and found it.

Here is what the post said: "The introduction track "Invitation" off of Keeper Of The Seven Keys Pt 2 is being used as theme music for the upcoming USA presidential elections.'

Here is a link to it, but it may or mat not work:
'https://web.archive.org/web/20010202072500/https://helloween.org/index2.html"

Was this real? or a joke?

[wolfking]

No idea, but pretty cool if it was true I guess.

[NotePad]

Yes that woulda been great. I managed to actually contact Michael Weikath by email using the address he lists on helloween.org. It's been killing me that I can't find any other info on it.

He replied and said that there had been a request by the Ministry, but that the then management never answered to it. He seemed to be a little puzzled by that, just as I am. I could only imagine that being good for the band. I find this disappointing.

[wolfking]

I actually find it impressive that Weiki replied to you.  Given his personality, I wouldn't expect that.

[NotePad]

Damnit, was typing a post but accidentially closed window. Anyways, i was saying that i agree, it's really cool for him to reply to his fans like that. I was thinking the email provided wasn't real and just a joke cuz it was odd, but guess not. I think he's probably a really nice guy. After all, he's the one that pushes the band to write positive, inspiring music.

I know i said i wasnt a huge fan of Rabbit, but was just listening to it earlier in my car. I was disappointed somewhat when it first came out cuz Dark Ride is one of my all time fave albums, but i still enjoyed it. Always have. The Tune is one of the best songs they've done. Sounds like it coulda been on Keepers. Just a little sign is catchy as hell. I can kinda see why they would feel confident enough to write a keepers album after what they did on rabbit. (although i prefer the more modern sounding stuff they do)

I'v always thought that if the band really, truely wanted to continue in the direction of the Keepers albums, they should let Weikath be their main songwriter. His songs always sound so classicly Helloween power metal. But he only ever writes at most like 2 songs each albums. Most of it is Andi, who writes great stuff, in many styles. But Weikath knows how to write a classic Helloween Keepers style song.

I think i heard somewhere that the 2 big 'epic' songs off Legacy were written more as a band collaborating. Or at least King for Thousand Years was. I truely believe that writing individually makes things uneven sometimes. Or at least have more focus stylistically. Which i think they did on their last 2 cds. I just think it's interesting how some bands write together like DT, and some bands write individually like Helloween.

I was just looking at writing credits on wikipedia, and I noticed the lack of writing credits for Roland Grapow. I always thought that he wrote some of their best stuff. And he is credited with a lot of my favorites. But some albums, like Better than Raw, there is no credit for him. I also heard he was a big part in Dark Rides direction. Just something i noticed. I think i heard them say somewhere that the credits on their CDs are often wrong and not entirely true. I know that he's done kickass stuff with Masterplan.

[wolfking]

Yeah, I think King for a Thousand Years was written by the whole band, including Dani.  As you said, Weiki really is the only link left to the Keepers material.  He definitely keeps that vibe in their music today, that's why I still think he is the most important part of the band along with Andi.

If you haven't already, there's an interview with Masterplan that came with the first album and it briefly has Roland and Uli discussing their Helloween departure.  They were not very happy.

To be honest, I never really understood the reasoning behind firing Uli and Roland.  Uli wrote Mr Torture which could easily be mistaken for a Weiki tune, and while Garpow did write 2 of the darkest tunes, Andi did contribute I Live For Your Pain, We Damn the Night, Crowds and Mirror Mirror which are just as heavy.  But if you look at Better Than Raw, Uli wrote the heaviest tunes by far.

[NotePad]

Yea, I read an interview with Roland recently, don't know when it was from, but it was interesting. He said Weiki mainly wanted to keep the music in the style of the Keepers albums. And like I said, if you look at the writing credits of their albums, Weiki writes the songs that i would say sound the most like Keepers-style power metal. That definitely played a part in his decision to fire them. And from the sounds of it, it mainly WAS his decision.  Grapow wrote some of the best stuff on dark ride, including my favorite one 'Escalation 666'- which is definitely not a typical Helloween song, but i love it so much. I just can't get over how they fired such great songwriters.

And I agree somwhat with what you said about Mr. Torture. Helloween is mainly a power metal band, and Mr. Torture is a great power metal song. BUT in keeping with the style of the album, it has dark lyrics, which Weiki has made clear he does not like. Another thing i don't get is that Andi Deris wrote the majority of the songs on that album, so I don''t really but his reasoning for firing those other 2.

From reading many interviews with the bandmembers recently, I think that Helloween is struggling with finding a balance with their music. They want to stay heavy and have a somewhat 'modern' sound, but they also don't want to write dark music. I think with the new one 'Straight out of hell' they have found that balance. I love this CD soooooo much.

[wolfking]

Yeah, the new album was pretty impressive.

[NotePad]

I will add that Andi Deris has one of the oddest, and most unique, singing voices out there. I'v always preferred him over the Michael Kiske fellow, who I still to this day feel has a rather boring and typical singing voice.

I wonder if Deris still smokes. I remember reading awhile back that he smoked. I think that is a horrible thing for a singer too do. 

[wolfking]

I wonder if Deris still smokes. I remember reading awhile back that he smoked. I think that is a horrible thing for a singer too do. 

[TAC]

Deris is pretty versatile, I'll give him that, but there is nobody that I take over Kiske.  Nobody.

[NotePad]

Don't want to start an argument.....but Iv always felt Kiske was way overrated. Deris is underrated, as a singer and a songwriter. I mean, even alone, he's written songs that I think are soooooo much better then the Kai Hansen/Kiske stuff.

Was just listening to a couple of the deris & bad bankers songs on YouTube. They sound pretty amazing I must say. Iv always known that out of all the Helloween guys, Deris had the biggest tendency to write commercially accessible stuff. The Bad Bankers songs sound like something you might hear on a Deftones record or something. Hope I can find it here in Vancouver Canada. I can only hope.

[NotePad]

I have a question. I always thought Occasion Avenue was part of the 'Keeper trilogy', after Keeper and king for thousand years. But i was just reading up about thier cd Unarmed and the Keepers Trilogy on it has Halloween, Keeper, and King for 1000 years. Is Occasion Avenue not part of the trilogy?

By the way, can someone tell me what the Keeper songs are about? And I never knew Halloween was part of that story. Thought it was about something totally unrelated.

[wolfking]

Honestly, I'm not one to follow songs in my music.  I always thought King would be part of it, but I feel Occasion Avenue didn't but then the intro could tell a different story.  I can't help.

[NotePad]

Yea i dont know.

Why arn't there more people on this thread! This is the only place i can find where i can chat about them! I really love them, was one of the first metal bands i got into, a while after Dark Ride was released. It was the first album i bought from them. First song i heard was Mr. Torture. The only band i listened to before them was Maiden. Love BNW, but in total honesty the first song that hooked me was Angel and The Gambler. Yea love the Blaze stuff. Which led me to his band, and obsessing over Silicon Messian. Somehow that led me to Helloween, can't remember how tho. I think i just really liked their name.

A little OT, but has anyone heard the Masterplan albums without Jorn? The singers sound like Jorn Lande wannabes tbh. But like i said, Roland can write fuckin beautiful tunes

[wolfking]

Yeah, Helloween nowadays is very underrated IMO and not talked about much here.

There is a Masterplan thread if you search too which is a lot more popular.  I liked Mike in Masterplan and Rick proved himself on Novum Initium.  Both the latter and MK2 are miles ahead of the Jorn sung Time To Be King, which was rubbish.

[TAC]

Been going through some of the Deris albums this week. I'm not huge crazy about Deris, but I feel like it's still growing on me. Most of The Dark Ride is absolutely excellent. I'm sorry Wolf, but Rabbit just doesn't do a lot for me. I'm on to Time Of The Oath, which I also like a lot.

And yes, that last Masterplan album was excellent.

[NotePad]

I'v been giving Rabbit another shot too recently. But it just doesn't really do it for me either. It's like a poorer version of Better Than Raw (one of their best . Just a little sign i love though, The Tune is saved by its chorus and is the only reason i listen to in. In Fact The Tune's chrous is one of the main reasons i play the cd. And then Listen To The Flies. Other then that i can't think of any noteworthy Helloween songs on it. Nothing To Say got a lot of hype by fans at first, but overall...well, i don't even remember most of the song actually ;(.

[kirksnosehair]

Yeah, Helloween nowadays is very underrated IMO and not talked about much here.

There is a Masterplan thread if you search too which is a lot more popular.  I liked Mike in Masterplan and Rick proved himself on Novum Initium.  Both the latter and MK2 are miles ahead of the Jorn sung Time To Be King, which was rubbish.

I'm trying to rectify that.  wolfking, I recently picked up "The Dark Ride" and I've listened to it twice.  Good album.  Definitely a bit different than other stuff I've heard.  I have "Straight Out of Hell" and like that one too.  It's different to hear aggressive-sounding metal in a major key but it almost seems like that's their signature style.


Now, I bought "Keeper of the Seven Keys" (parts 1 and 2) and never really got into them with those.  The production was pretty lousy and I just didn't connect with the music at all.  Should I go back to those with fresh ears?  Is there a remaster out there somewhere?  Or what do you recommend I try? 

[NotePad]

I'm trying to rectify that.  wolfking, I recently picked up "The Dark Ride" and I've listened to it twice.  Good album.  Definitely a bit different than other stuff I've heard.  I have "Straight Out of Hell" and like that one too.  It's different to hear aggressive-sounding metal in a major key but it almost seems like that's their signature style.


Now, I bought "Keeper of the Seven Keys" (parts 1 and 2) and never really got into them with those.  The production was pretty lousy and I just didn't connect with the music at all.  Should I go back to those with fresh ears?  Is there a remaster out there somewhere?  Or what do you recommend I try? 

Dude Helloween is maybe my favorite band and I don't even like the first 2 keepers albums. A couples songs like March of Time, I'm Alive, Eagle i enjoy, but that's it. I don't even think those are greatest hits material. Most of the keeprs songs i find too bland for my tastes

I'm a fan of Helloween with Deris. And I think Straight Out Of Hell is one of their best albums. I hope they keep going in this direction. And for the first time since Better Than Raw, Weiki's songs dont sound out of place ;p.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend going back and trying keepers again. Like me, it's probably just not your thing. I wouldn't say the band doesn't write songs that are keepers style anymore- they still do. Their new stuff is just as fast and powerful, with catchy anthem like chorus'. But Deris is just a more creative vocalist, and a great songwriter. Other then that I'm not really sure how to compare new Deris-era Helloween with the Keepers albums. It's all there, but just better

Fuck the Keeper of The 7 Keys. Don't even bother. They ain't that great.

[TAC]

Kirk, those first two Keepers albums are TAC Classics. I mean they are intregal parts of my musical life. I was on them when they came out and they have never gotten old.

When Kiske left, I bought the first two CD singles with Deris, Mr Ego and Perfect Gentlemen. I just could not deal with the change of voice. So I ignored Deris era Helloween up until a couple of years ago. I still don't care for Master Of The Rings, the first with Deris, but Time Of The Oath is MUCH better, and if you like The Dark Ride, I'd recommend that.

[wolfking]

The Keeper albums are indeed classic, but saying that, I'm not a huge fan of Part 2, but the first part is perfect.

I always knew since it came out that I was one of the only ones that loved Rabbit as much as I do.  I still stand by my opinion but totally understand why some wouldn't dig it as much as most of their other albums.