Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?

[William Wallace]

Yeah, Raich really pissed me off.  That's when I decided that for all his alleged brilliance, Scalia is just another lackey like the rest of them.  He's just better at articulating his bullshit.

What else is new? My frustration stems from the feds involving themselves in issues that they have no constitutional authority to be involved in. It's a stretch to apply the commerce clause to marijuana sale and consumption; even the tortured "progressive" interpretation runs into a wall here, I think.

I really wish our state and federal governments would at least take a look at the reasons why the plant has become illegal in the first place. By that, I mean looking at those reasons from an objective and ethical point of view.

BUT THE CHILDREN AND COMMUNISM AND TOUGH ON CRIME

This is what the guy from Flowers For Algernon would sound like if he ran for office.

[El Barto]

Did some reading up on it during lunch, and this is a pretty shitty idea.  I was unaware that people with prescriptions could sell their excess to clubs and dispensaries.  Right now, anybody in Cali with decent intelligence and a spare bedroom could be making good bucks legally (and many are).  Prop 19 would do away with that.  The only people allowed to sell their grass would be big businesses who can afford the hundreds of thousands in fees and permits.  The people in Cali have a great deal working right now.  It's the most pot-friendly place there is.  While I obviously think that it should be legal everywhere, this bill doesn't seem to do anything but give all the power and the money over to corporations (like every other law that seems to get passed).  Personally, I'd rather have some college kid making $5k a month than see it just go to Phillip Morris. 

Interesting corollary.  If the proposition passes, the price will plummet when R.J. Reynolds forces the small fry out of the game.  As it stands right now, individuals are making good money in the game, and it's all getting pumped back into the economy.  It seems to me that lots of added wealth to plenty of the citizens would be better for Cali than some increased wealth to out of state corporations.   

[7StringedBeast]

Did some reading up on it during lunch, and this is a pretty shitty idea.  I was unaware that people with prescriptions could sell their excess to clubs and dispensaries.  Right now, anybody in Cali with decent intelligence and a spare bedroom could be making good bucks legally (and many are).  Prop 19 would do away with that.  The only people allowed to sell their grass would be big businesses who can afford the hundreds of thousands in fees and permits.  The people in Cali have a great deal working right now.  It's the most pot-friendly place there is.  While I obviously think that it should be legal everywhere, this bill doesn't seem to do anything but give all the power and the money over to corporations (like every other law that seems to get passed).  Personally, I'd rather have some college kid making $5k a month than see it just go to Phillip Morris. 

Interesting corollary.  If the proposition passes, the price will plummet when R.J. Reynolds forces the small fry out of the game.  As it stands right now, individuals are making good money in the game, and it's all getting pumped back into the economy.  It seems to me that lots of added wealth to plenty of the citizens would be better for Cali than some increased wealth to out of state corporations.   

While I agree with you that more money going into big corporations doesn't necessarily help the little guy much, I disagree on the fact that anyone should be able to sell it.  If you can grow it yourself, and then sell the product to a vendor, that is one thing.  But the fact is, the stuff should be taxed like any other product.  The process in which it is sold should still be done legally.  If you get the proper permits to sell your own, you should be allowed.  But it shouldn't be done under the table.

[El Barto]

While I agree with you that more money going into big corporations doesn't necessarily help the little guy much, I disagree on the fact that anyone should be able to sell it.  If you can grow it yourself, and then sell the product to a vendor, that is one thing.  But the fact is, the stuff should be taxed like any other product.  The process in which it is sold should still be done legally.  If you get the proper permits to sell your own, you should be allowed.  But it shouldn't be done under the table.

The way it currently stands seems to be that people can sell to authorized vendors, but not to just random townsfolk.  Said townspeople have to go to an authorized vendor (with a script, although that seems to be a rubber stamp kind of thing).  This seems like a perfectly fine arrangement.  While it isn't currently being taxed (since it's technically considered medication), it is pumping tons of dough into the economy.  I'm not sure that isn't a better benefit than the tax would be if the marijuana equivalent of big Pharm drives the price down to nada. 

[El Barto]

I think this goes without saying, but he is in favor Proposition 19.

That's actually a very bad thing from your point of view.  People like us have it much better in Cali now than if that thing passes.

I'm not debating, I'm curious of your point of view. Why is it better now?

It's already mostly legal.  Prescriptions are rubberstamped, and that allows people to buy it or grow their own.  If they grow their own,  they can sell their excess to dispensaries legally, and they get no interference from Johnny Law.  It's basically decriminalized.  Under this system, big business can't really get their foot in the door.  Since R.J. Reynalds can't get a prescription, they can't grow it. 

The purpose of prop 19 is to turn the tables so that it becomes a business.  If it passes, then people will still be able to grown their own, but only small amounts and they won't be able to sell it.  The only people who will be able to sell it are the corporations who spend gazillions on permits, and more importantly, lobbying.  Instead of lots of dispensaries selling nice quality bud grown by local people, it'll be big tobacco selling cheap weed out of 7-11s and liquor stores.

Furthermore, Dickhead Obama's Justice Department is currently ignoring the goings on in Cali.  It's a small enough deal that it's not worth continuing Bush's policies.  However, they've made it pretty clear that if this thing passes, all bets are off.  Now if that happens, do you think Uncle Sammy is going to bring the boot down on Phillip Morris, or on medium sized operations with hippies growing KB to sell boutique style?  The DEA will deal harshly with the people that you and I actually want to patronize.

There are also plenty of other restrictions that come along with it.  One example is that there aren't currently a lot of laws concerning where you "medicate."  That'll change real fast.  Basically, Cali is probably the best place in America to be a stoner right now.  In an effort to hand over all the money to big business, they're going to screw it all up.

[Chino]

I know, and that is sad. Unfortunately Prop 19 is the only chance many other states have at even the thought of legalization. Especially in Connecticut. I think there will still be great bud that you could buy all over the place. It's bullshit that people in Cali can use it "medically" and if I get caught with a gram bag of it I get to spend a few hours in a cell.

[lateralus88]

El Barto, you make some fantastic points, but I have to respectfully disagree and believe Prop 19 should still be passed. Call it a gut feeling, but I just can't help but think that Prop 19 will be a catalyst into more fair marijuana based legislature. It has to start somewhere.

[El Barto]

El Barto, you make some fantastic points, but I have to respectfully disagree and believe Prop 19 should still be passed. Call it a gut feeling, but I just can't help but think that Prop 19 will be a catalyst into more fair marijuana based legislature. It has to start somewhere.

I thought you were staunchly anti-drug!  Have I gotten my Jews mixed up?

Anyway, I have two problems here.  While good bud will still be available in Cali, the rules will be fundamentally changed for the common head there, and they'll take a big step backward.  Stoners really are better off there right now.

Now, if I thought it would be a game-changer for the rest of Amerika, then I'd say that maybe they're taking one for the team, but I don't think that it will be.  In fact, I think it'll be a resounding failure.  The plan for it is impractical.  The tax revenue they're projecting is delusional.  The black market will still exist.  Law enforcement resources will remain the same.  And as I pointed out in an earlier post, I think Herr Holder will calculate federal interference to insure that the experiment is a failure.  Add to that, as William Wallace is so fond of pointing out, you're going to have the government meddling heavily into commerce, which will just open the door for more corruption.  In this case he's actually right. 

Rather than places like Connecticut saying "hey, look how well it went in Cali!!!", they're going to be saying "wow, look how big a mess it was in Cali!"  As it stands, the medical marijuana program there seems to be working well enough, and I don't see the place going to hell [any quicker] because of it.  I'd rather see the current program held up as an example of how other states should do it.  So far, 14 states have enacted medical usage laws.  Just let the ball keep rolling slowly.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

It won't change anything at the federal level if only because Eric Holder said that they'll still impose federal law concerning marijuana.

Eventually, it's going to go to the courts and be overturned, I imagine

[William Wallace]

Check out this article in my local paper about the pro legalization prop 19 opposition. It essentially elaborates on El Barto's criticism of the measure.

https://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1865695

Landers is pro-legalization. “But Prop. 19 is not legalization,” Landers argues. “It says that nowhere in the law.”

He sees 19 only as a threat to patients. Proponents vigorously reject this, but Landers—an armchair legal eagle who has worked on more than a half-dozen Capitol bills—impresses with his comeback. He says there is no language in the measure to ensure that Prop. 215 will remain unchanged.

The tinfoil-hat crowd says this omission is intentional and that Oaksterdam’s Richard Lee—who, like many dispensary owners, has made millions while supposedly operating as a not-for-profit—wants to take away patients’ rights to collectively cultivate large quantities of marijuana. They call 19 the gateway to the corporate-cannabis age.

But Landers, who never raises his voice or veers off-topic, isn’t one for schemes. “It’s going to take away patients’ cultivation rights,” he agrees. “And it’s going to regulate us out of the backyard.”

[Chino]

Not really completely irrelevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRyLbsW3wZE&feature=related

[El Barto]

The one thing that concerns me about the vote tomorrow is that if it loses, which is looking likely, it might well set back a few of the other states.  I'm obviously opposed to prop 19, but it will bum me out when people cite the vote tomorrow as a mandate for prohibition.  Particularly since most of the people voting against it will be doing so for shitty reasons.  Honestly, the way these ass-hats put this thing out there is kind of a lose/lose situation.  But, at least the stoners in Cali will still have a damn fine situation. 

[Chino]

The one thing that concerns me about the vote tomorrow is that if it loses, which is looking likely, it might well set back a few of the other states.  I'm obviously opposed to prop 19, but it will bum me out when people cite the vote tomorrow as a mandate for prohibition.  Particularly since most of the people voting against it will be doing so for shitty reasons.  Honestly, the way these ass-hats put this thing out there is kind of a lose/lose situation.  But, at least the stoners in Cali will still have a damn fine situation. 

Yeah. It seems that the vote isn't for whether or not pot should be legal. It's more like if we can't make a ton of money on this, we aren't going to give you the privilege, which really blows.

[Nigerius Rex]

Its not even the ridiculous taxes and fees that will come of legalization, its all of the other minor regulations that result of the initial legalization.

[El Barto]

Its not even the ridiculous taxes and fees that will come of legalization, its all of the other minor regulations that result of the initial legalization.

Yup.  It's the undoing of a lot of the good things they already have.  In this case, I wouldn't even consider the tax unreasonable except for the cheapest smoke available. 
 

[PlaysLikeMyung]

So proposition 19 did not pass. Thoughts?

[7StringedBeast]

It will delay the eventual legalization of Marijuana in the country.

Here is what I want to see in our nation.  No one getting arrested for Marijuana usage.

Law enforcement taken off of the Marijuana cases and put onto more harmful and problematic drugs.  Like Heroin, Meth. etc.

Marijuana is not even worth the DEA's attention.  And all those people thinking people will be outta work, its bullshit.  They can just focus on drugs that actually matter and actually harm the public good.

[El Barto]

So proposition 19 did not pass. Thoughts?

Obviously, I'm glad.  California remains a great place to be a stoner.  It would have been nice to see them lead a path, but I don't think Amerika is ready just yet.  Besides, as I already pointed out, their foray into legalized grass would have been a disaster and probably would have been a catalyst to move everybody else backwards.

[Chino]

So proposition 19 did not pass. Thoughts?

Obviously, I'm glad.  California remains a great place to be a stoner.  It would have been nice to see them lead a path, but I don't think Amerika is ready just yet.  Besides, as I already pointed out, their foray into legalized grass would have been a disaster and probably would have been a catalyst to move everybody else backwards.

The older half of America isn't ready.

[yeshaberto]

I am not surprised that it didn't pass, though I would've voted for it.  the one time I saw the numbers on it, it was pretty close. 

[Chino]

Its still amazes me it is illegal.

[yeshaberto]

yeah, that surprises me as well...the stigma attached to it baffles me

[Birch Boy]

Obviously, being sixteen, I'd like to see it legalized, but I live in New York anyway.

And I forgot what comedian said it, but he said something along the lines of: "Happy, hungry, sleepy. What's so bad about those effects?"
Obviously it was funny when he said it, but still, like a lot of people say, alcohol is a far more dangerous drug in terms of how it immediately (and long-term, I'd say) affects you, and it's legal.

[El Barto]

yeah, that surprises me as well...the stigma attached to it baffles me

That stigma is started at a young age and reinforced for many years.  Starting in elementary school, you have cops showing up twice a year to explain how it'll destroy your life.  And for all of that negative reinforcement, there aren't very many role models popping up to say "yeah kids, smoke dope,  it's grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!"  However, the times are changing and it's becoming more acceptable to portray it in a positive light.  We're watching the stigma diminish.  It just takes time.

[7StringedBeast]

yeah, that surprises me as well...the stigma attached to it baffles me

That stigma is started at a young age and reinforced for many years.  Starting in elementary school, you have cops showing up twice a year to explain how it'll destroy your life.  And for all of that negative reinforcement, there aren't very many role models popping up to say "yeah kids, smoke dope,  it's grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!"  However, the times are changing and it's becoming more acceptable to portray it in a positive light.  We're watching the stigma diminish.  It just takes time.

lol tell that to Michael Phelps.  I do agree with you though.  It is changing.

[William Wallace]

This election has convinced me that California voters are the stupidest around. Two contradictory propositions on taxation passed, 19 was rejected, our micro version of cap and trade is going forward, and the Democrats have managed to hold on to the state legislature - and take the governorship. Seriously, fuck us.

[Chino]

yeah, that surprises me as well...the stigma attached to it baffles me

That stigma is started at a young age and reinforced for many years.  Starting in elementary school, you have cops showing up twice a year to explain how it'll destroy your life.  And for all of that negative reinforcement, there aren't very many role models popping up to say "yeah kids, smoke dope,  it's grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!"  However, the times are changing and it's becoming more acceptable to portray it in a positive light.  We're watching the stigma diminish.  It just takes time.

We had cops come ever single week, and they brought guest speakers every 2 weeks. Honestly, I think it did more harm than good. If anything it made me curious. The message I got was, man these guys let it take control of their lives and they are still looking pretty good, all I have to do is not let it take control and I shouldn't have any worries.

[El Barto]

Yeah, the thing is, the more you overstate the danger of it, the easier it is to recognize that you're full of shit. 

[EPICVIEW]

This election has convinced me that California voters are the stupidest around. Two contradictory propositions on taxation passed, 19 was rejected, our micro version of cap and trade is going forward, and the Democrats have managed to hold on to the state legislature - and take the governorship. Seriously, fuck us.

I agree.. they vote down the pot prop..but elect Boxer? Dennis Miller was very funny on this subject last night

[Chino]

CT passed medical today!

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Legislative-panel-OKs-medical-marijuana-in-Conn-1324231.php

[El Barto]

CT passed medical today!

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Legislative-panel-OKs-medical-marijuana-in-Conn-1324231.php

Congratulations.  After all this time, now you can finally go out and get stoned.   

[Super Dude]

My take on legalizing pot has always been this: as long as there can be like a legal age as with smoking and drinking, and as long as there are plenty of PSAs like the don't drink 'n' drive and drink responsibility ones we have now as far as promoting responsible usage, I think it would be okay.

And I think that people should be aware that smoking pot, as smoking cigarettes, does result in lung damage, although that's more a fact of the smoking part than the pot part.

[Ħ]

I have a question.  I am unsure on this issue.  Would marijuana be available at local retailers, like walmart or something?  and would there be an age limit?  i know not everyone will agree to these answers, but what is the general consensus among supporters of legalization?

[Chino]

I have a question.  I am unsure on this issue.  Would marijuana be available at local retailers, like walmart or something?  and would there be an age limit? 

I don't think it will be available at huge retailers. Maybe decades down the road, but very unlikely. However it would be nice to buy a pound in bulk from costco  . I hope it never gets to the point. I love walking into smoke shops. It's an awesome atmosphere and would enjoy giving myself a reason to visit more often. Of course there will be an age limit.

[Ħ]

Er, I meant what should the age limit be?  I'm thinking 21, but then again that's just an arbitrary number.