Author Topic: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?  (Read 22395 times)

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Offline TheVoxyn

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2010, 06:05:00 AM »
Maybe they should take a look at how it works here.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2010, 08:38:58 AM »
but communism and family values or something
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Offline Chino

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2010, 05:23:31 PM »
So.... Proposition 19. Think its going to pass?

Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2010, 05:29:34 PM »
Most likely. Up to an ounce in hand and growing for personal use in a small space would be legal although I don't know how state legislation will sync up with federal where it is still illegal.

Offline Chino

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2010, 05:31:17 PM »
Most likely. Up to an ounce in hand and growing for personal use in a small space would be legal although I don't know how state legislation will sync up with federal where it is still illegal.

I think once California proves how much financial sense it makes, and 3 or 4 other states follow, there isn't going to be much the feds can do.

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2010, 05:59:02 PM »
Attorney General Eric Holder said that it would still enforce federal marijuana laws regardless of whether Prop 19 passes

Even though it's legalized in the state, the federal laws still apply, apparently

Offline El Barto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2010, 06:01:34 PM »
Attorney General Eric Holder said that it would still enforce federal marijuana laws regardless of whether Prop 19 passes

Even though it's legalized in the state, the federal laws still apply, apparently
Yeah, thank God Bush isn't still around.  Oh, wait!   :facepalm:




This guy pretty much has it nailed.  https://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/10/19/miron.prop.19/
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2010, 06:07:10 PM »
Yeah that was the article I read earlier

Personally, I'm almost totally indifferent to whether or not this passes. I'm personally anti-drug (yes, even pot), and so I don't want it to pass. However, I can't ignore the possible positive tax ramifications of it. So I don't know.

Offline Seventh Son

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2010, 06:19:29 PM »
Yeah that was the article I read earlier

Personally, I'm almost totally indifferent to whether or not this passes. I'm personally anti-drug (yes, even pot), and so I don't want it to pass. However, I can't ignore the possible positive tax ramifications of it. So I don't know.
Would you consider yourself anti-alcohol?
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Offline emindead

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2010, 06:45:36 PM »
I think it is rather brilliant the way you guys are going to get drugs legalized over there. First a small proposition that allows people to grow and carry an ounce. Once people finally understand that the world will not collapse, then the rest of the drugs will be legalized. Then Colombia will be the richest planet on earth. Then I will be able to buy all of Adami's gold etc...

Seriously, if you are against something, then don't do it. But don't make people not have just because you are against it and it won't directly affect you.

Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2010, 07:07:02 PM »
Quote
In a free society, the presumption must be that people can smoke, snort, eat or inject whatever they wish, so long as they do not harm others. The burden of proof should rest on those who would ban marijuana, not those who want it legal. That burden has never been met.

So true.

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2010, 07:15:05 PM »
Yeah that was the article I read earlier

Personally, I'm almost totally indifferent to whether or not this passes. I'm personally anti-drug (yes, even pot), and so I don't want it to pass. However, I can't ignore the possible positive tax ramifications of it. So I don't know.
Would you consider yourself anti-alcohol?

Not totally. I mean, I don't understand the college mindframe of: "olol let's get shwaysted lolz", and I don't think we're doing enough to enforce underage laws here (especially since a fraternity on my campus was shut down for gangbanging some freshmen because they were providing copious amounts of booze)

but if you're 21+, I don't give a shit what you do as long as you don't give it to minors.

Seriously, if you are against something, then don't do it. But don't make people not have just because you are against it and it won't directly affect you.

I like to make this argument for gay marriage and abortion, but that always seems to be thrown back at me.

If the law passes, it passes. Because I don't live in California it won't affect me anyway. Pennsylvania will NEVER legalize it on its own.

Offline j

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2010, 07:23:25 PM »
Yeah that was the article I read earlier

Personally, I'm almost totally indifferent to whether or not this passes. I'm personally anti-drug (yes, even pot), and so I don't want it to pass. However, I can't ignore the possible positive tax ramifications of it. So I don't know.
Would you consider yourself anti-alcohol?

Not totally. I mean, I don't understand the college mindframe of: "olol let's get shwaysted lolz", and I don't think we're doing enough to enforce underage laws here (especially since a fraternity on my campus was shut down for gangbanging some freshmen because they were providing copious amounts of booze)

but if you're 21+, I don't give a shit what you do as long as you don't give it to minors.

If you support the 21 year old cutoff for legal alcohol consumption, why not for other drugs?

Quote
Seriously, if you are against something, then don't do it. But don't make people not have just because you are against it and it won't directly affect you.

I like to make this argument for gay marriage and abortion, but that always seems to be thrown back at me.

Terrible argument for abortion.  Sensible when applied to gay marriage.  Somewhere in the middle for drug legalization, I think, but I'd say it leans more toward the latter.

-J

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2010, 07:30:11 PM »
Yeah that was the article I read earlier

Personally, I'm almost totally indifferent to whether or not this passes. I'm personally anti-drug (yes, even pot), and so I don't want it to pass. However, I can't ignore the possible positive tax ramifications of it. So I don't know.
Would you consider yourself anti-alcohol?

Not totally. I mean, I don't understand the college mindframe of: "olol let's get shwaysted lolz", and I don't think we're doing enough to enforce underage laws here (especially since a fraternity on my campus was shut down for gangbanging some freshmen because they were providing copious amounts of booze)

but if you're 21+, I don't give a shit what you do as long as you don't give it to minors.

If you support the 21 year old cutoff for legal alcohol consumption, why not for other drugs?

Quote
Seriously, if you are against something, then don't do it. But don't make people not have just because you are against it and it won't directly affect you.

I like to make this argument for gay marriage and abortion, but that always seems to be thrown back at me.

Terrible argument against abortion.  Sensible when applied to gay marriage.  Somewhere in the middle for drug legalization, I think, but I'd say it leans more toward the latter.

-J

For the drug thing: I know people who smoke weed. They do it regularly. One of them used to be my best friend. He's pretty smart, but when he started smoking he devolved into a dumbass who thinks all his arguments are gold because they sound good (to him), when he's high. I could see, in him, that marijuana DOES affect your brain, and I don't care what your personal experiences are, it can screw up peoples lives. Granted, alcohol does the same thing. If this were a utopian world (in my view) prohibition would still be in effect. As it is, it's not, and so I approve the age limit grudgingly.

I don't drink except for religious purposes, really. I'm turning 21 in less than a month and I intend on buying myself a drink or two, but I'm stopping there. I've seen what happens to drunk people, how they act, and I do not intend to be like them, and so I'm cutting myself off. Yeah, it may sound like a boring 21st birthday, but I'm okay with that.

And I'm curious; why would that argument not work for abortion? The OPTION is there, and nobody's forcing anyone to get abortions, and it shouldn't directly affect you. So what's the big deal?

Offline j

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2010, 07:45:27 PM »
For the drug thing: I know people who smoke weed. They do it regularly. One of them used to be my best friend. He's pretty smart, but when he started smoking he devolved into a dumbass who thinks all his arguments are gold because they sound good (to him), when he's high. I could see, in him, that marijuana DOES affect your brain, and I don't care what your personal experiences are, it can screw up peoples lives. Granted, alcohol does the same thing. If this were a utopian world (in my view) prohibition would still be in effect. As it is, it's not, and so I approve the age limit grudgingly.

I don't drink except for religious purposes, really. I'm turning 21 in less than a month and I intend on buying myself a drink or two, but I'm stopping there. I've seen what happens to drunk people, how they act, and I do not intend to be like them, and so I'm cutting myself off. Yeah, it may sound like a boring 21st birthday, but I'm okay with that.

Fair enough.  I know people who have screwed up their lives with drugs too, and it's sad.  But people screw up their lives in a lot of ways.  It's arguable whether or not legalizing certain drugs would actually lead to greater consumption or safer product.  Also, particularly in the case of weed, it could potentially have a crippling effect on the Mexican drug cartels, because it comprises something like 60% of their livelihood.  Anyway, all stuff to consider.

Quote
And I'm curious; why would that argument not work for abortion? The OPTION is there, and nobody's forcing anyone to get abortions, and it shouldn't directly affect you. So what's the big deal?

PM to save the thread from going off topic. :tup

-J

Offline El Barto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2010, 07:50:52 PM »

For the drug thing: I know people who smoke weed. They do it regularly. One of them used to be my best friend. He's pretty smart, but when he started smoking he devolved into a dumbass who thinks all his arguments are gold because they sound good (to him), when he's high. I could see, in him, that marijuana DOES affect your brain, and I don't care what your personal experiences are, it can screw up peoples lives.

Quote from: Spock
The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play.
Of course marijuana effects the brain; that's the point.  It's one of many ways to effect it temporarily.  Personally, I've found it damned beneficial to occasionally enjoy facets of life from the perspective of a dumbass.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2010, 08:38:29 PM »
For the drug thing: I know people who smoke weed. They do it regularly. One of them used to be my best friend. He's pretty smart, but when he started smoking he devolved into a dumbass who thinks all his arguments are gold because they sound good (to him), when he's high. I could see, in him, that marijuana DOES affect your brain, and I don't care what your personal experiences are, it can screw up peoples lives. Granted, alcohol does the same thing. If this were a utopian world (in my view) prohibition would still be in effect. As it is, it's not, and so I approve the age limit grudgingly.

I don't drink except for religious purposes, really. I'm turning 21 in less than a month and I intend on buying myself a drink or two, but I'm stopping there. I've seen what happens to drunk people, how they act, and I do not intend to be like them, and so I'm cutting myself off. Yeah, it may sound like a boring 21st birthday, but I'm okay with that.

Fair enough.  I know people who have screwed up their lives with drugs too, and it's sad.  But people screw up their lives in a lot of ways.  It's arguable whether or not legalizing certain drugs would actually lead to greater consumption or safer product.  Also, particularly in the case of weed, it could potentially have a crippling effect on the Mexican drug cartels, because it comprises something like 60% of their livelihood.  Anyway, all stuff to consider.



-J

As far as the cartels are concerned, in the article Barto posted, he said that most drug money comes from cocaine and methamphetamines as opposed to marijuana, so it won't be as crippling as a lot of people suspect. I haven't seen these numbers though, so I can't confirm

Offline El Barto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2010, 09:29:47 PM »
While that's certainly true, it's also the case that black market weed will still be around.  The tax rate is fairly close to the current market rate.  Legal weed will be quite a bit more expensive than the underground variety. 
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Offline Fuzzboy

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2010, 10:05:07 PM »
I personally don't see any reasons to keep drugs that you can't OD or get addicted to, such as LSD and pot illegal. I'll always remember the case where a girl put some acid in her teacher's drink and they convicted her of trying to poison him, which is impossible. It seems to me that people misunderstand these drugs and just don't really care enough to understand them. They just put a "bad" stamp on it and never consider it's potential.
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Online Adami

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2010, 10:06:26 PM »
Even though I think all drugs should be legal, LSD is far from a harmless drug. It might not kill you on a chemical level, but it's pretty easy to die on it if taken wrong.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2010, 10:32:33 PM »
anyone here hear about the 115 tons of cannabis they found today....wow!  that is a lot of weed!

Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2010, 11:14:56 PM »
I don't really give a shit whether they make pot legal or not. I'll still smoke it either way.
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Offline Fuzzboy

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2010, 11:58:58 PM »
Even though I think all drugs should be legal, LSD is far from a harmless drug. It might not kill you on a chemical level, but it's pretty easy to die on it if taken wrong.

You could say the same about alcohol and some prescription stuff like Codeine.
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Online Adami

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2010, 12:14:43 AM »
Even though I think all drugs should be legal, LSD is far from a harmless drug. It might not kill you on a chemical level, but it's pretty easy to die on it if taken wrong.

You could say the same about alcohol and some prescription stuff like Codeine.

Yes I can.
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Offline Fuzzboy

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2010, 12:56:39 AM »
Even though I think all drugs should be legal, LSD is far from a harmless drug. It might not kill you on a chemical level, but it's pretty easy to die on it if taken wrong.

You could say the same about alcohol and some prescription stuff like Codeine.

Yes I can.

Oh my bad, for some reason the "I think all drugs should be legal" part of your post got skipped over. Carry on  :P
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2010, 02:58:33 AM »
Quote from: CNN Article
Prop 19's passage could mean a Supreme Court showdown, which California would lose. In the 2005 Gonzalez v. Raich case, the court held that the Constitution's commerce clause allows the federal government to bar individuals from cultivating marijuana on their own property for their own medicinal use. Reasonable people dispute the ruling, but the Supreme Court's conservative-to-liberal ratio has not changed. So the court will again invoke the commerce clause, wrongly, to justify a federal ban on full legalization.
Well...fuck.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2010, 05:49:38 AM »
Quote from: CNN Article
Prop 19's passage could mean a Supreme Court showdown, which California would lose. In the 2005 Gonzalez v. Raich case, the court held that the Constitution's commerce clause allows the federal government to bar individuals from cultivating marijuana on their own property for their own medicinal use. Reasonable people dispute the ruling, but the Supreme Court's conservative-to-liberal ratio has not changed. So the court will again invoke the commerce clause, wrongly, to justify a federal ban on full legalization.
Well...fuck.


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Offline El Barto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2010, 08:38:29 AM »
Quote from: CNN Article
Prop 19's passage could mean a Supreme Court showdown, which California would lose. In the 2005 Gonzalez v. Raich case, the court held that the Constitution's commerce clause allows the federal government to bar individuals from cultivating marijuana on their own property for their own medicinal use. Reasonable people dispute the ruling, but the Supreme Court's conservative-to-liberal ratio has not changed. So the court will again invoke the commerce clause, wrongly, to justify a federal ban on full legalization.
Well...fuck.


Yeah, Raich really pissed me off.  That's when I decided that for all his alleged brilliance, Scalia is just another lackey like the rest of them.  He's just better at articulating his bullshit. 


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Offline lateralus88

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2010, 08:47:38 AM »
I really wish our state and federal governments would at least take a look at the reasons why the plant has become illegal in the first place. By that, I mean looking at those reasons from an objective and ethical point of view.
I felt its length in quite a few places.

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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2010, 08:50:25 AM »
I really wish our state and federal governments would at least take a look at the reasons why the plant has become illegal in the first place. By that, I mean looking at those reasons from an objective and ethical point of view.

BUT THE CHILDREN AND COMMUNISM AND TOUGH ON CRIME
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2010, 08:53:15 AM »
I really wish our state and federal governments would at least take a look at the reasons why the plant has become illegal in the first place. By that, I mean looking at those reasons from an objective and ethical point of view.

BUT THE CHILDREN AND COMMUNISM AND TOUGH ON CRIME

AND THE PROFITS OF SEAGRAMS, PHILIP MORRIS, AND PFIZER!
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Offline lateralus88

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2010, 09:00:43 AM »
Precisely.
I felt its length in quite a few places.

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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2010, 09:38:51 AM »
There is no real good reason to not have pot be legalized across the whole country.  The fact is, cigarettes are legal for 21 and up.  Kids still get cigs and smoke them.  Same goes with alcohol.  Kids are going to smoke pot if its legal for 21 and up.  BUT, kids are already smoking pot now!  The thing is, if it becomes legal nothing is going to change.  It will be business as  usual except people won't have to buy from sketchy drug dealers.  People will have the option of buying quality product from a store.  It will be taxed, thus the pot smoker helping out society!  Woo.

Mainly, nothing will change.  People are already smoking pot now.  Making it legal will just keep pot smokers out of jail, where they shouldn't be in the first place.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2010, 09:40:56 AM »
Random musings about Prop 19.

I have no idea if it'll pass.  People are panicky about the budget problems, and most know that prohibition is a bad idea.  Yet, the Republicans are pretty damned mobilized, and this looks a lot like a fairly clear cut, left/right political matter.  Looks like a toss-up to me.

If it passes, it'll eventually be deemed a failed experiment.  The way I see it, most of what they're using to try and push it is bullshit.  The revenue forecasts are insane.  People with means will grown their own high quality smoke in their garage or second bedroom.  People without means will grow their own crappy dope in the backyard.  Half the people who choose to buy it for convenience will get it from the same dealer they do now because $50/lid tax is fairly steep.  The dealers will undercut the commercial sellers. 

Uncle Sammy will put the boot down on a few, select parties just to exert supremacy.  If they pick the right parties, medium sized connoisseur grade growers and distributors, and large scale outfits that lack the protection afforded by huge corporate ownership, they can really screw up the success of the attempt.  I suspect that any federal enforcement will be aimed at undermining the success of the program and will be moderately successful.

The cost of prohibition won't be effected since they'll just move Johnny to other things.  They're not going to suddenly lay off 500 coppers just because they're not needed to bust stoners any more. 

Pot use will eventually increase (though that's happening anyway).  The notion that normal, law abiding people will suddenly run out to buy a bag is silly.  However, as public perception of smoking becomes more tolerant, more people will partake.

One thing that will come of it is that it'll be slightly harder for kiddos to score a bag.  I can tell you that it was a lot easier for me to get weed than beer when I was 14.  I guess some people will consider this a good thing.

Lastly, as one who is a friend of the bong, I'd vote against the thing.  Cali is already a great place to be a stoner.  They're going to take a nice thing and ruin it.  They're adding unnecessary regulations and drawing too much attention from elsewhere.  While I obviously think that total decriminalization is the right thing to do, this doesn't come close, and sometimes the right move is just to lay low and be happy with what you've got.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Are these reason enough to keep pot illegal?
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2010, 10:19:51 AM »
I was at a rotary meeting the other day, and to my utter surprise the program was a debate on prop 19.  I am pretty unbiased, though I lean towards supporting the idea (though have doubts about the actual legislation), but the professor for the prop blew doors on the debate.  the other guy merely made over-generalizations and exagerrations and used fear tactics.  The other guy simply stated the simple facts over and over.