All will be fine, fellow DT fans. MP and DT will go on...

[bodiesinflight]

but DT CAN be DT without Mike Portnoy.

No, no, no. DT cannot be DT without him. Thank you for trying to lift everyone up with the positive outlook but MP was the heart of that band. Plain and simple. Without him, there is no DT.

I'm going to go listen to DT now and cry until I have no more tears left. 

Bollocks

[Samsara]

Well, I said similar, not identical. You've often cited Chris as the focal guy when it came to press and interviews, and the glue that seemed to hold things together. He handled a lot of behind the scenes stuff and had a hand on the business end. Think of all the things that will be absent now that Mike is gone. He was directly responsible for all DVD releases as well as the Yste Jam stuff. He was indeed the mouth for the band. I'm just saying that some could see it going one way, which is the shitty road like QR, but mot of us are optimistic that the remaining members won't sit around with their thumbs up their butts. The musical talent is still staggering, and with the loosened grip of Mike's controlling attitude, perhaps we'll see some good stuff to come. I personally am hopeful for a return to form, as the direction taken hasn't been too exciting in my opinion.

You did say similar, but it is entirely dissimilar in regard to the creation of the music, which is the fundamental purpose of a band. I wanted to be real clear on that, because in no way is it similar in the most important regard - the music itself. But yes, in the things you mentioned above, Chris and Mike P. had like roles in their respective old bands.

[Samsara]

but DT CAN be DT without Mike Portnoy.

No, no, no. DT cannot be DT without him. Thank you for trying to lift everyone up with the positive outlook but MP was the heart of that band. Plain and simple. Without him, there is no DT.

I'm going to go listen to DT now and cry until I have no more tears left. 

Well, no offense, but you obviously don't know much about music if you think there will be no DT without the drummer who didn't write music other than his drum parts.

The band's face will be different, its spokesman different, and the interaction with the fans will be different. MP filled all those roles, and they will change. But the most important thing, the music, will probably not be all that much different. The core writers for the band are still there. Portnoy isn't a guy like Charlie from Anthrax, who writes all the songs for the band, but still plays drums. Portnoy was a drummer that wrote lyrics and handled all the odds and ends.

I know people like to champion the guy for being more than that, but he wasn't. He cared a LOT about the fans, and deserves every accolade he has gotten for how much he cared for the fans and for his drumming. But he wasn't a music songwriter. He was a part-time lyricist who wrote his drum parts.

DT's music is a LOT more than that. If Petrucci left, DT would be over. Completely. But Portnoy? Bah, it'll be a little different, but things will be fine.

So if you need to cry, here's a tissue, but I would encourage you to stop being so melodramatic. He's a drummer.

[bosk1]

Agreed with the larger point.  But, again, Mike absolutely DID write the songs.  Did he bring complete songs to the table?  No.  But the way the band wrote, at least for the last 10 years or so, my understanding is that nobody did that with the exception of JP bringing Wither in as an essentially completed piece.  The rest of the songs were written in the studio by JP, Mike, and Jordan with some contributions by Myung. 

[LadyEars]

Well, no offense, but you obviously don't know much about music if you think there will be no DT without the drummer who didn't write music other than his drum parts.

Offense taken. I know enough about music to know that MP was the driving force behind DT. Aside from him contributing to and basically controlling every single aspect of that band, he is the best prog metal drummer in the world and the biggest part of the CHEMISTRY that cannot be replicated. MP was the heart of the band. PERIOD. NONE of what DT created could have been done w/o MP. And while I'm sure the music will go on, it will NO LONGER BE DREAM THEATER. It can't be because the heart is gone.     

[Samsara]

Agreed with the larger point.  But, again, Mike absolutely DID write the songs.  Did he bring complete songs to the table?  No.  But the way the band wrote, at least for the last 10 years or so, my understanding is that nobody did that with the exception of JP bringing Wither in as an essentially completed piece.  The rest of the songs were written in the studio by JP, Mike, and Jordan with some contributions by Myung.  

No, he did NOT, bosk1. He wrote his drum parts, which his bandmates said were useful ideas. He didn't write the guts of a song, which are the guitar and keyboard riffs that are arranged to make a song.

edited to add - Portnoy was given credit because he was IN THE ROOM while the music was being created by JR and JP. That is why (in my opinion), that they did it that way. SO that MP got his just desserts when it came time to publishing. Sure, MP's drums were there at song conception. But it's not like he sat down at the keyboard and said "I wrote these two keyboard riffs that will go well here as a basis for a song."

Had he done something like that (or on guitar), sure, ok then. But he did NOT. He was simply in the room, and jammed with the songwriters to create the songs. But you can take out MP's drum stylings and put someone else in there and play something with different fills, and still have the same song. You can't take out the riffs or the arrangement and do the same thing.  THAT is why MP isn't music songwriter. He didn't contribute any of that.

He sat back on his drum stool and came up with a drum fill pattern for the songs that JP and JR came up with. There is a BIG difference. But MP got credit as a writer all the time, because he was in the room, and frankly, in my personal opinion, he wanted a piece of the publishing (which is important).

[Samsara]

Well, no offense, but you obviously don't know much about music if you think there will be no DT without the drummer who didn't write music other than his drum parts.

Offense taken. I know enough about music to know that MP was the driving force behind DT. Aside from him contributing to and basically controlling every single aspect of that band, he is the best prog metal drummer in the world and the biggest part of the CHEMISTRY that cannot be replicated. MP was the heart of the band. PERIOD. NONE of what DT created could have been done w/o MP. And while I'm sure the music will go on, it will NO LONGER BE DREAM THEATER. It can't be because the heart is gone.     

I wouldn't argue that his impact within the band will be missed, but frankly, I think that chemistry and what it produces, was shot over the last few album cycles. Just my personal opinion, but while JP and MP had a bond, my gut feeling is he didn't have much of a bond with JLB, JR, or even JM when it was all said and done.

Again I say, MP's impact on the music will be felt, but not in the songwriting department. THe drums will be different and the band's interaction with fans and the media will be very different, but until someone shows me a clip of MP playing a guitar and writing a Dream Theater song, then I still say nothing will change from the music side, except for the other guys getting involved a bit more, and perhaps they will hire a real producer for once.

Sorry you don't feel that way, Lady, but hey, you gotta feel the way you gotta feel.

[bodiesinflight]

Well, no offense, but you obviously don't know much about music if you think there will be no DT without the drummer who didn't write music other than his drum parts.

Offense taken. I know enough about music to know that MP was the driving force behind DT. Aside from him contributing to and basically controlling every single aspect of that band, he is the best prog metal drummer in the world and the biggest part of the CHEMISTRY that cannot be replicated. MP was the heart of the band. PERIOD. NONE of what DT created could have been done w/o MP. And while I'm sure the music will go on, it will NO LONGER BE DREAM THEATER. It can't be because the heart is gone.     

You're obviously a massive MP fan but you're being totally OTT about the whole thing. JP is more important to DT and so was KM before he left.
As for chemisty, what chemistry? The biggest problem in DT in recent years has been the lack of chemistry if you ask me, and I think MP is largely to blame for that with his attitude towards other members of the band (we all know what I'm talking about here).
And plenty of what DT couldn've been done without MP. He was nowhere near as involved in the early records as the later ones (i.e. post KM) and funnily enough DT's two best albums (in mine and many others' humble opinions) were both before Mike was as large a part of the writing process.
Furthermore if MP is needed to drive DT then why is he deciding he wants to do other stuff while the other band members are fully up for continuing with an 11th studio album? Sounds like they have more drive then he does as far as I'm concerned.
As for the hear thing, that's totally unfair. MP always talks about DT as his "baby" but in reality it belongs as much to JP as it does MP. Just because JP isn't as vocal in the press/management side as things that doesn't mean that he isn't the most important member of the band.

Also, you should listen to some guys called Danny Carey, Neil Peart and Tomas Haake drumming before saying stuff about "best prog metal drummer"
. While I will always admire MP's playing he just doesn't have the same individuality as many other players.

[MykeHavoc]

Well, I believe this is up for debate, as Mike has some ability to play bass/guitar and write lyrics along with hooks. As far as how much, well, obviously writing credits don't differentiate every little bit.

[John94]

The only noticeable change will probably be the lacking Octabons.

[Samsara]

Well, I believe this is up for debate, as Mike has some ability to play bass/guitar and write lyrics along with hooks. As far as how much, well, obviously writing credits don't differentiate every little bit.

Someone should ask JP, JR, and MP if MP ever sat down and handed them riffs to play as songwriting contributions. I guarantee that answer would be "no," or at the most "once or twice, but he mostly was in the room playing drums to what we came up with."

The latter is what it probably was.

Songwriting credits (publishing) is a funny thing. It can be masked big time, depending on how you had things set up between the band members.

[LadyEars]

Fuck it. I don't have the will or the energy to argue any of these points. All I know is that this news eats ass and balls. The good news for me is this day can't get any worse now.  

[antigoon]

Samsara, while you're right that Portnoy didn't actually write riffs, he did play a big role in arrangement and overall ideas about the direction of the music. So I don't think we can discount the role he played as a kind of director. It's definitely more than just writing drum parts.

[LadyEars]

Samsara, while you're right that Portnoy didn't actually write riffs, he did play a big role in arrangement and overall ideas about the direction of the music. So I don't think we can discount the role he played as a kind of director. It's definitely more than just writing drum parts.

Yes, this!

[Samsara]

Samsara, while you're right that Portnoy didn't actually write riffs, he did play a big role in arrangement and overall ideas about the direction of the music. So I don't think we can discount the role he played as a kind of director. It's definitely more than just writing drum parts.

Yeah, I can see that, sure. But I don't see his role in that regard being something that can't be easily taken over by someone else in the band. He didn't generate song ideas. He co-produced and co-arranged records with JP. WIthout MP, JP simply takes the reigns. It's not a big deal.

Again, all you MP heads out there, not taking shots at MP. Just saying that while I agree things sound funny saying Dream Theater without Mike Portnoy, that all will sound well in the DT world without him. It's not like we lost JP.

When Kevin was lost, the music still carried on, and he was a songwriter, who also wrote lyrics (although I'd argue Kevin's absence in the lyric and songwriting department did change the band fundamentally).

But MP is a drummer and co-producer/arranger. Losing him isn't the end of Dream Theater. THe band will still sound the same. Had it been JP, then that is a different story. MP is a GREAT drummer, and he cared about the fans more than any musician I have ever been around (and these days, I've been fortunate enough to be around many of them). But at the end of the day, he plays drums and doesn't write the music the songs are generated from. DT will go on just fine. Just keepin' it real, yo. 

[LadyEars]

Also, you should listen to some guys called Danny Carey, Neil Peart and Tomas Haake drumming before saying stuff about "best prog metal drummer"
. While I will always admire MP's playing he just doesn't have the same individuality as many other players.

Only one of the three you mention above are prog metal drummers - Danny Carey and he does not hold a candle to MP. Not saying he's not an amazing drummer but he is just not of the caliber of MP. Neal Peart is straight prog or prog/rock. Tomas Haake is straight metal. Therefore I still hold that MP is the best prog metal drummer in the world.

[bosk1]

Samsara, while you're right that Portnoy didn't actually write riffs, he did play a big role in arrangement and overall ideas about the direction of the music. So I don't think we can discount the role he played as a kind of director. It's definitely more than just writing drum parts.

The bolded part.  And, he actually DID write riffs and chord progressions regularly.

[Samsara]

Samsara, while you're right that Portnoy didn't actually write riffs, he did play a big role in arrangement and overall ideas about the direction of the music. So I don't think we can discount the role he played as a kind of director. It's definitely more than just writing drum parts.

The bolded part.  And, he actually DID write riffs and chord progressions regularly.

If he did, cite your source, because in everything I ever read (Lifting Shadows, articles, etc.), and watched (countless interviews), that is not how his involvement has been described.

Don't just "riff" off the top of your head, bosk1. If you are going to be definitive (what I have stated has been on the DVDs and in the book), then cite it, otherwise, don't just guess. I've seen and read the same stuff as you, and nowhere in any of that does it say he writes riffs and chord progressions.

If you are talking to someone who is telling you that, then you need to have them give you the source. Otherwise, that is just BS.

And IF (and that is a VERY big IF) I am wrong, I'll happily admit it and reconsider the situation before posting again. But you need to provide proof. As I said, everything I described in regard to how DT writes songs, was gotten from Lifting SHadows, various articles, and various DVD and interview footage. YOu and I watch and read the same stuff, so I want to know where you got your info.

Name some songs too where Portnoy had the riff and chord progression too. Because according to everything that is out there in the public eye, he didn't write riffs and chord progressions.

[bodiesinflight]

Also, you should listen to some guys called Danny Carey, Neil Peart and Tomas Haake drumming before saying stuff about "best prog metal drummer"
. While I will always admire MP's playing he just doesn't have the same individuality as many other players.

Only one of the three you mention above are prog metal drummers - Danny Carey and he does not hold a candle to MP. Not saying he's not an amazing drummer but he is just not of the caliber of MP. Neal Peart is straight prog or prog/rock. Tomas Haake is straight metal. Therefore I still hold that MP is the best prog metal drummer in the world.

What do you define as prog metal? Meshuggah are a metal band that are far more progressive and forward thinking than DT have ever been, Peart is the drummer of a prog band that has often veered into heavy metal territory and Carey is a really original drummer who may not technically be as good as Portnoy but sounds better...because he's got his own style.

Also mega LOL at Meshuggah being "straight metal" - that's hilarious!

[skydivingninja]

I don't many specific songs that Portnoy wrote riffs for, but I know he did come up with the main Rite of Passage riff.

And he definitely had a hand in arranging the songs.  There were some clips of them writing BC&SL before the album came out where he was shown as an arranger.

[LadyEars]

Also mega LOL at Meshuggah being "straight metal" - that's hilarious!

 

[Samsara]

I don't many specific songs that Portnoy wrote riffs for, but I know he did come up with the main Rite of

How do you know?

[skydivingninja]

A post on this forum relating to an interview MP did or something.  It was a while ago, but I definitely remember seeing something about it on these boards.  He thought of the melody and left it on JPs answering machine, if I recall.

[bodiesinflight]

Also mega LOL at Meshuggah being "straight metal" - that's hilarious!

 

You're taking the piss out of yourself now, that's original


Meanwhile I was tempted earlier to defend MP cause he didn't write AROP but now I know he basically wrote the riff...

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Amazing post, Samsara 

[Samsara]

A post on this forum relating to an interview MP did or something.  It was a while ago, but I definitely remember seeing something about it on these boards.  He thought of the melody and left it on JPs answering machine, if I recall.

Ok, taking what you are saying as definitive and accurate (which no offense, is a bit of a stretch unless we see something), that still doesn't constitute writing a riff.

I can hum anything into a recorder and say I wrote a riff then. Doesn't work that way. Sure, a melodic idea is an idea, and I don't discredit that. But a simple melody for one song that is 9 minutes long, to be honest, is a stretch in regard to "writing" a song. It's a tiny part, sure, but JP had to come up with the riff and the ajoining chords.

Again, if I am completely wrong on MP's involvement, I will happily admit it and reconsider what I have said. But everything I have read and that is out there publicly showcases MP as not a songwriter, but rather a co-producer and co-arranager for DT's songs. JP and JR are the music songwriters.

If someone has some definitive proof that MP is the one who wrote a ton of riffs and chord progressions, and that he was a huge significant source of original riffs and progressions that made up DT's songs, then provide that proof, so I can admit my mistake.  

I honestly wouldn't have a problem being wrong on this, but I want proof, not speculation.

[KevShmev]

I don't many specific songs that Portnoy wrote riffs for, but I know he did come up with the main Rite of Passage riff.

Which is a fairly similar reworking of the "In the Name of God" riff. 

[Mladen]

I agree with every single word, Samsära. 

[bosk1]

Samsara, while you're right that Portnoy didn't actually write riffs, he did play a big role in arrangement and overall ideas about the direction of the music. So I don't think we can discount the role he played as a kind of director. It's definitely more than just writing drum parts.

The bolded part.  And, he actually DID write riffs and chord progressions regularly.

If he did, cite your source, because in everything I ever read (Lifting Shadows, articles, etc.), and watched (countless interviews), that is not how his involvement has been described.

Don't just "riff" off the top of your head, bosk1. If you are going to be definitive (what I have stated has been on the DVDs and in the book), then cite it, otherwise, don't just guess. I've seen and read the same stuff as you, and nowhere in any of that does it say he writes riffs and chord progressions...

I'm not guessing.  Watch the making of Systematic Chaos DVD or the making of The Whirlwind DVD, for example.

A post on this forum relating to an interview MP did or something.  It was a while ago, but I definitely remember seeing something about it on these boards.  He thought of the melody and left it on JPs answering machine, if I recall.

Ok, taking what you are saying as definitive and accurate (which no offense, is a bit of a stretch unless we see something), that still doesn't constitute writing a riff.

I can hum anything into a recorder and say I wrote a riff then. Doesn't work that way. Sure, a melodic idea is an idea, and I don't discredit that. But a simple melody for one song that is 9 minutes long, to be honest, is a stretch in regard to "writing" a song. It's a tiny part, sure, but JP had to come up with the riff and the ajoining chords.

What?    Since when does that not constitute songwriting?  If your definition is that he had to have physically picked up a guitar or keyboard (I guess singers, bassists, and drummers are screwed) and written a complete song from start to finish for it to have been "real writing," then I guess you're right about him not being a "writer" in that sense.  But that's really an artificial and overly restrictive definition that I don't think is shared by many people who consider themselves songwriters. 

[rumborak]

I dunno, bosk. From what I've seen, he's been mostly arranging songs, not contributing chord progressions. I know I've seen him reference sections of songs as e.g. "The D-flat section", but that's something different.
That is certainly a part of songwriting (i.e. the arranging part), but I would also say that it is the most replaceable.

rumborak

[bosk1]

I'm not saying it's an irreplaceable role at all.  I just take umbrage with the statement that he somehow doesn't qualify as "a songwriter" within the band--especially given the method this particular band uses to write its songs (getting together and just jamming the songs out, and then arranging all the parts into something that works). 

[moffatt]

I thought this was the DT will go on thread, not the MP DID NOTHING IN DT thread.

[7StringedBeast]

I thought this was the DT will go on thread, not the MP DID NOTHING IN DT thread.

It's ok man.  People are just trying to come to grips with this shaking news.  We all want to believe that DT will be fine without Portnoy, so people are supporting why they believe so.  Let them have their comfort.  Everyone respects what Mike did for DT, no one is saying otherwise here.

[Dublagent66]

Is this a discussion or arguments that could very well be moot 2 or 3 months from now?  I'll admit that I was devastated and angry when I first heard the news, but I'm not ready to say anything definitive about the future yet.  It's still too soon to know for sure what will transpire.  I agree that DT can go on without MP, but there is one thing for sure.  The band would not be the same without him.  I'm not ready to say goodbye to MP yet.  Over time, if he ends up not rejoining the band, then so be it and I will miss him greatly.  But, isn't everyone jumping the gun just a little too soon here?  I'm just trying to remain in a positive mindset (something I need practice with anyway).

[ariich]

Good post Bri, I agree with everything EXCEPT about MP's announcement. I don't think he was painting DT in a bad light at all; when I read it I thought it very honestly and openly explained his reasons and the fact that he couldn't come to an agreement with the rest of the band.