The Rush Thread v. Clockwork Angels

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I thought so also.  A fantastic turn of events.  Very cool for that guy.

[jingle.boy]

Considering it's a top 2 song for me, that is very cool to hear.

[Nick]

That was a really cool story!

[Priest of Syrinx]

Can't believe no one mentioned this.

Not only is today the birthday of lonestar and hefdaddy, but it's also 29 years to the day Signals was brought to us.  I wasn't around then, but I bet there was much rejoicing.

Every Rush fan I knew at the time felt betrayed.

[Orbert]

"Betrayed" may be a bit too strong a word, but I know what you mean.  Rush added a little synth here and there starting with A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres, then they became a regular part of the Rush sound with Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures.  As Signals came after a live album, people expected Rush to go in a new direction, as they had following the first live album.  But Signals seemed to embrace the keyboards even more, and many consider it the official start of the "keyboard era" of Rush.  There were a couple ways they could go, but most fans were not expecting them to continue in the direction they'd been going for the past few albums.

In retrospect, Signals is a fine album, and a lot of people like the 80's SynthRush sound.  But many were still reeling from Moving Pictures, an excellent album but with just about as much keyboards as old-school Rush fans (which were the only kind at the time) were comfortable with.  To most, Rush was still a standard power trio: Guitar, Bass, and Drums.  Yeah, if they wanted to dabble in synths, most people didn't have a huge problem with it, but some did, and more synths is not what people were expecting.

[Priest of Syrinx]

Heh, you're right, I was simply being dramatic 

Besides, "Every Rush fan I knew at the time" totaled 3.  I eventually did come 'round to Signals - the tunes were just too catchy - but it was never quite the same.

[King Postwhore]

What made people upset what that Alex's guitars were mixed down and the keyboards were in the forefront.  That's what they were going for.  Most were upset, including Alex but over time is won Rush fans over.

[Orbert]

Change is difficult.  I know, it's a cliché, but clichés are based in truth, and this one is definitely true.  I remember feeling like Geddy might be getting just a little bit too much spotlight.  Obviously as lead vocalist, and usually the only vocalist, he's already got a built-in minimum time in the spotlight.  Musically, the bass, guitar, and drums always had a great balance.  But adding keyboards, something Geddy obviously was into, upset that balance.  They were becoming "Geddy Lee and Rush" -- I even heard them announced that way on the radio a few times -- not cool.

To say that the guitars were pushed down in the mix in favor of the keyboards is a bit of an oversimplification, but that is what it came down to.  People liked the balance the way it was.  People loved Alex's guitar sounds and weren't really interested in the "new Rush" featuring walls of keyboards, especially since Geddy wasn't a particularly gifted keyboard player.  Sure, his patches were great, but he didn't program them, and despite the occassional lead line, it was mostly walls of Oberheim, often burying Alex's amazing guitar sounds.  I can understand Alex being discouraged by this.  Hell, I was too, and I'm a keyboard player.  I wanted to like SynthRush, but it took a while.

As it turned out, Rush was once again ahead of their time.  The 80's were definitely the decade of analog synths.  Most of the time, if you pull out a song from the 80's with keyboards, you can immediately identify it as 80's because of the sound.  Somehow 80's Rush doesn't sound dated like that to me.  Or maybe it's because I just hear Rush and don't hear the "80's sound".

[King Postwhore]

No Bob, that came from Alex and Geddy.  They wanted the keyboards more prominent.  Alex has stated this many times in interviews. I like the fact that Rush always strives for something different but it is how people and even Alex at the time felt. 

[Orbert]

Wait, I thought Alex was on record as saying he didn't like the heavy push towards keyboards... at the time.  It's only more recently that he's come around.

[The King in Crimson]

I thought he liked it at first, but as time went on he started to dislike how prominent they were becoming.

[Priest of Syrinx]

Wait, I thought Alex was on record as saying he didn't like the heavy push towards keyboards... at the time.  It's only more recently that he's come around.

In the Rush: Beyond the Lighted Stage documentary, Alex does indeed say that he wasn't real happy with the increased emphasis on keyboards.

[ytserush]

No Bob, that came from Alex and Geddy.  They wanted the keyboards more prominent.  Alex has stated this many times in interviews. I like the fact that Rush always strives for something different but it is how people and even Alex at the time felt.

Exactly.

And according to the Jon Collins book Chemistry (unauthorised) in which Terry Brown was a prominent source (he also wrote the forward, such as it is)

Signals happened the way it did because the keyboards were done first because Geddy was more prepared than Alex was (which is pretty much historically typical).

Both Geddy and Alex agreed at the time that they wanted a more rhythmic approach for the guitar for Signals, but  when the time came to record Alex just wasn't ready with his parts so the keyboards got put in first and Alex ultimately had to work around that (brilliantly, I might add too).



It's funny, I remember a couple people at the time saying the the new Rush album sucked and that they "sold out."

I'm sure much of this sentiment formed when they saw them on tour that year.

Only two full songs from the '70s (Closer To The Heart and The Trees) were played and four others (The Temples of Syrinx, Xanadu, La Villa Strangiato and In The Mood) were played as a medley at the end before the encore.

I would imagine that a number of long time fans became a little pissed after witnessing a set focused heavily on songs from 1980(2), 1981 and 1982.


Of course I'd spoken with a few fans back in the late '80s (nobody since) that said that the band lost the plot after the first album and that album was the best thing they ever did.

[Orbert]

Well then we have some conflicting stories here.

[ytserush]

Well then we have some conflicting stories here.

I'm not sure if I understand if there is any conflict. 


I think Signals is a completly different album from Moving Pictures (They went out of the way to avoid making Moving Pictures II. Neil has even said that they moved his drums to the other side of the room!)  Acoording to Terry Brown, the album "was ready to rock" based on demos that the band recorded (again from the Jon Collins book Chemistry) but the band was hell bent on doing something different and just went heavy on the keyboards. Terry Brown doesn't think he did enough to try and steer the band away from the heavy use of keyboards, according to that book.

If there was any anger out of Alex it happened gradually as the album was being made and probably culminated as soon as he heard what Signals sounded like. There was only the desire to try something different at the beginning. So, in retrospect, he may not like the results now, but unanimous goal to try something different and Alex not really being ready to finalize his guitars (according to the Collins book) were probably a major factor in how that part of Signals was composed.

I think the imbalance you speak of (the Geddy Lee and Rush part of it) had more to do with outside factors and not the band themselves.


What's funny is Geddy Lee showing up in all of those keyboard polls with the likes of Emerson, Wakeman and Downes which is obviously so ridiculously wrong. Even Geddy admitted that he was a bass player first, vocalist second and keyboardist a distant third. It's obsurd. You can probably count on one hand the amount of prominent keyboard solos that he's ever played.

Geddy took on keyboards initally as a way to expand their sound and then he kind of got hooked on the technology for a while through Hold Your Fire. (When he discovered that the band was getting trapped by the technology while they were on stage, which made performing a lot less fun.)



The '80s albums don't sound dated because the band didn't want to do anything that was trendy or current from the production side of things. I'm glad they had the forsight then to realize that that whole era in general was a garbage dumpster as far as production was concerned.

[Priest of Syrinx]

From Beyond the Lighted Stage

Alex: "I loved the idea of the keyboards, when we first started.  I think as that part of our sound developed, there were times where we just got on the wrong track."  He's looking uncomfortable here.

Geddy: "Alex and I had so real disagreement of how profound the keyboards should be... (Power Windows) was the essential blending of keyboards and guitar to me, for Rush."

Alex: "With Power Windows I found it really, really difficult to work around how the keyboards were developing.  Why am I looking for a different place?  I shouldn't be looking for a different place.  What's going on with these keyboards?... it's not even a real instrument."

[Orbert]

Okay then, not really conflicting, just really dependent on who you ask, and when you asked them. I can see how both Geddy and Alex would at first be into the idea of adding keyboards to their sound. Rush have always pushed for different directions, different musical ideas to explore. But I can also see how Alex would be less enthusiastic over time, finding himself fighting for space in ways he didn't have to before. And I never really thought about how Geddy might start feeling "trapped" by what he'd created. I've always admired how Rush tries to faithfully reproduce whatever they can in a live setting, especially how much they manage to do considering there are only three of them. But I can also see how that could be a problem. There are a few songs with so many layers and overdubs that you just can't do justice to the song properly, playing it live. The studio is a wonderful place for creating music, but in some ways it has to be treated almost as a separate medium. It almost becomes too easy to create things you just can't reproduce on stage.

[Pols Voice]

What's going on with these keyboards?... it's not even a real instrument."

I hope Mr. Zivojinovic said that in jest.

[Priest of Syrinx]

What's going on with these keyboards?... it's not even a real instrument."

I hope Mr. Zivojinovic said that in jest.

He seemed somber in the video.

[Pols Voice]

Wow.

I will say that I like Rush's keyboard heavy period, but it was probably getting out of hand on HYF even though I enjoy that album.

[Priest of Syrinx]

Okay then, not really conflicting, just really dependent on who you ask, and when you asked them. I can see how both Geddy and Alex would at first be into the idea of adding keyboards to their sound. Rush have always pushed for different directions, different musical ideas to explore. But I can also see how Alex would be less enthusiastic over time, finding himself fighting for space in ways he didn't have to before. And I never really thought about how Geddy might start feeling "trapped" by what he'd created. I've always admired how Rush tries to faithfully reproduce whatever they can in a live setting, especially how much they manage to do considering there are only three of them. But I can also see how that could be a problem. There are a few songs with so many layers and overdubs that you just can't do justice to the song properly, playing it live. The studio is a wonderful place for creating music, but in some ways it has to be treated almost as a separate medium. It almost becomes too easy to create things you just can't reproduce on stage.

Yeah, I'm thinking it went down something like this:

Geddy:  Hey Alex, we're gonna add some keyboards.
Alex:  OK, cool, it will add some texture and give us a modern sound, really complement the guitar well.
Geddy:  Yeah, "complement"... interesting word.  Uh, just remember, um, I'm still figuring all this out, so don't quit your day job.
Alex:  What?  Geddy, this *is* my day job.
Geddy:  Fuck.

[MasterShakezula]

Wow.

I will say that I like Rush's keyboard heavy period, but it was probably getting out of hand on HYF even though I enjoy that album.

I'd say amongst Rush's first 12, HYF is only stronger than Rush.  Though it's all good. 

Now, if you compare it to their stuff from 89-onwards, it's not too weak (by Rush standards).

I'd take it over LOL the Bones and most of Test for Sucko anyday!  Can't say I prefer it over Presto, though. 

[PlaysLikeMyung]

AND THE THINGS THAT WE FEAR ARE A WEAPON TO BE  HELD AGAINST US

[Pols Voice]

Alex fears keyboards.

[MasterShakezula]

And it turns out Geddy was the enemy within.

[Priest of Syrinx]

GEDDY HAS ASSUMED CONTROL
GEDDY HAS ASSUMED CONTROL
GEDDY HAS ASSUMED CONTROL

[ytserush]

Okay then, not really conflicting, just really dependent on who you ask, and when you asked them. I can see how both Geddy and Alex would at first be into the idea of adding keyboards to their sound. Rush have always pushed for different directions, different musical ideas to explore. But I can also see how Alex would be less enthusiastic over time, finding himself fighting for space in ways he didn't have to before. And I never really thought about how Geddy might start feeling "trapped" by what he'd created. I've always admired how Rush tries to faithfully reproduce whatever they can in a live setting, especially how much they manage to do considering there are only three of them. But I can also see how that could be a problem. There are a few songs with so many layers and overdubs that you just can't do justice to the song properly, playing it live. The studio is a wonderful place for creating music, but in some ways it has to be treated almost as a separate medium. It almost becomes too easy to create things you just can't reproduce on stage.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
Both are enthused about running away from Moving Pictures, perhaps too enthused to the point where keyboards are dominating are justified as being OK because they are so different than what came before.


There were a lot of synths of Grace Under Pressure too, but at the same time that record is filled with dark, angry guitar and many of Alex's best guitar solos and moments that he's ever committed to tape (And count me among those who'd love to hear some stuff that wasn't ever committed to tape). The guitar/keyboard "battle," for lack of a better way to describe it, really accents the general (lyrical) theme of the album and I think that's one of the reasons it's one of the best albums they've ever done.

By the time of the Power Windows tour, they weren't all that concerned about reproducing everything live just as long as they could physically trigger what they need to on cue.

During the Hold Your Fire Tour, much of the show was dependent on them hitting triggers at specific times (which I guess would become pretty boring during a tour, needing to be at a certain place at a certain time probably drains some freshness from the show). The fun part of the Hold Your Fire show began with YYZ and continued through to the end.

Check out the A Show Of Hands DVD, Geddy especially seems like he's just gotten permission to rock after Territories....oh wait. They didn't put YYZ on the that DVD. OK...The Spirit Of Radio (after Neil's solo) both of them do a lot more roaming around on stage than the first two thirds of the concert.

I'm not sure Geddy even plays keyboards all that much anymore. He's colorcoded his keyboard to help him trigger many of the keyboard sounds and phrasings except for the obvious stuff that he might feel pressured to still play.

I think it was the Presto Tour when a bank of keyboards appeared at Alex's side for the first time to help take some of the "triggering" load off of Geddy.

[KevShmev]

I think all three of them have triggered stuff on stage at one point or another, although Geddy always had the bulk of them, but any time an actual keyboard is on Alex's side, that is for Time Stand Still since he plays the keys in the chorus of that song live.

[dbrooks22]

Couple of things about P/G:

1)  I'm pretty sure that i read a few times that the band was as close to breaking up during this period as they ever have been.

2)  Geddy says, when asked about P/G, that it was a reaction to the synth-heavy Signals, and that they probably went TOO FAR with the guitars on that album as a result. 

[MasterShakezula]

I always found P/G to be just as synthy, if not moreso, than Sigz.

[dbrooks22]

Agreed - that's why i posted that quote.  Was very surprised he said that....

[Phoenix87x]

Just listened to HYF the other day and I have to say, It really hit the spot quite nicely. I really do love Rush's synth-era, but I kind of have to be in the right mood though.

[TempusVox]

I had a couple of PM's asking me about this. Sent Ged a text asking if he wanted to contribute anything to this discussion. 

Reply: "Good grief! We were trying new things, had great toys to play with, and sometimes I got carried away. Don't let them write "keyboardist" on my marker."   

Then this: "Better they want to talk about the music and not the clothes. :-) "

[Orbert]

Good answer! 

[skydivingninja]