Author Topic: Who cares about the children?  (Read 23778 times)

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2010, 10:43:50 AM »
Teach your kid to cope with society.  Don't try to warp society to conform to some Ward Cleaver Ideal.

So very this.

I agree too.....but who is doing this, and how is it part of this discussion?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2010, 10:53:38 AM »
One of the many detrimental effects of the overvaluation of children. 
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2010, 10:56:24 AM »
One of the many detrimental effects of the overvaluation of children.  

I dont see how the "overvaluation" of children is causing the warping of society into a ward Cleaver Ideal.  Example?  
It appears to me that we arent valuing them enough as we are giving them a sick planet, and a horrible economic legacy.  What part about todays society represents the Cleavers more than times past?

And what are other of the "many" detriments to this "overvaluation"?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 11:05:28 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2010, 11:06:03 AM »
Schools do it all the time.  Every kid is a winner.  Everyone gets a medal or a ribbon, or whatever.  No they don't.  There are winners and there are losers.  Everybody isn't a winner, no matter how badly parents want to protect their children from having hurts feelings.  How well do parents think that kinda of stuff is going to serve their child when they grow up and get out into the real world?  When they get fired from their job for any number of reasons, they'll find out that not everone is a winner.

Then there's the sports parent who, when their child is given equal play time as the others, or worse, penalized for breaking a rule (purposely or accidentally breaking it), going all psycho because "NOT MY KID!"  Yes, dad, your kid is, in fact not perfect.  They CAN do wrong despite what you think.  Parents (and yes, their kids as well) ready to meet other parents (and their kids) in the parking lot, because of some perceived "slight" to their kid on the soccer field.  Things like this.  Yes, some of these things ARE more along the line of what parents do, but they're still distorting the importance of their kid's place in the world by acting out like this.

Cope with society - some win, some lose.

Make society conform - everyone's a winner!

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2010, 11:10:59 AM »
Schools do it all the time.  Every kid is a winner.  Everyone gets a medal or a ribbon, or whatever.  No they don't.  There are winners and there are losers.  Everybody isn't a winner, no matter how badly parents want to protect their children from having hurts feelings.  How well do parents think that kinda of stuff is going to serve their child when they grow up and get out into the real world?  When they get fired from their job for any number of reasons, they'll find out that not everone is a winner.

Then there's the sports parent who, when their child is given equal play time as the others, or worse, penalized for breaking a rule (purposely or accidentally breaking it), going all psycho because "NOT MY KID!"  Yes, dad, your kid is, in fact not perfect.  They CAN do wrong despite what you think.  Parents (and yes, their kids as well) ready to meet other parents (and their kids) in the parking lot, because of some perceived "slight" to their kid on the soccer field.  Things like this.  Yes, some of these things ARE more along the line of what parents do, but they're still distorting the importance of their kid's place in the world by acting out like this.

Cope with society - some win, some lose.

Make society conform - everyone's a winner!

I agree with this, and there is already a backlash against it (the "everybody is a winner" thing).
The solution is to teach kids there is winning and losing, but like with the ADM (American Development Model) in hockey, the focus in early years should be on skill development and enjoyment of the game, not winning or losing....introduce pure competition later on at more appropriate ages.

But that is for another discussion.  This discussion seemed to be about why do we, or should we, care about children?  And it seems I have helped it get way off track  
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 11:33:58 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2010, 11:21:58 AM »
Wow!  The things you miss in 2 1/2 hours. :laugh:
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2010, 11:23:23 AM »
Wow!  The things you miss in 2 1/2 hours. :laugh:

Yeah, it seems that this thread got WAY off the tracks...due, in no small part, to myself.  :)
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2010, 11:38:19 AM »
I think we've all contributed to some degree.  :lol

Offline TAC

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2010, 11:48:52 AM »
I think we've all contributed to some degree.  :lol
Actually..it was the Children..but who cares? :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2010, 11:50:15 AM »
SEE WHAT I MEAN?  Smart little shits they are.  They've found a way to throw us completely off topic.  They're f*cking with us, I tell ya.

Offline TAC

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2010, 12:08:11 PM »
Damn terrorists! A gang of 'em just rode by my house on a bunch of Big Wheels. Boarded up my windows right away!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2010, 12:08:58 PM »
It's probably not a bad idea.

Offline TAC

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2010, 12:15:39 PM »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2010, 12:18:49 PM »
I was watching the Rush documentary last night, and my 4 yr old girl looks at Geddy and says, "Daddy!...its Tom Sawyer!"
Couldnt be more proud.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2010, 12:20:18 PM »
I was watching the Rush documentary last night, and my 4 yr old girl looks at Geddy and says, "Daddy!...its Tom Sawyer!"
Couldnt be more proud.
I swear to God, the other night my kids set up a Thomas The Tank Engine rock concert and played TCOT.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2010, 01:35:31 PM »
What the hell is goin on this thread??  Has everyone one of you forgotten YOU were a baby, then a kid, then a teenager and so on and so forth until you came to be the bitter people you are today towards kids?  Seriously.  Kids are important because they grow up.  Kids become basically the whole world as far as humans are concerned.  Because everyone doing great things now was once a kid.

I'm not even sure why this is even a question.  Kids need protection and guidance.  It's just the way nature works.  You see it with all sorts of animals in nature, not just humans. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2010, 01:36:56 PM »
I have noticed that the people not understanding the question are simply stating that children should be valued. I don't think anyone had a different opinion. The question asked, I believe, is why children are so OVER valued. Not why they need some protection and so forth, but why they are more valued than others and so forth.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2010, 01:43:30 PM »
I have noticed that the people not understanding the question are simply stating that children should be valued. I don't think anyone had a different opinion. The question asked, I believe, is why children are so OVER valued. Not why they need some protection and so forth, but why they are more valued than others and so forth.

I dont think they are over valued.  Many agree.  If a person doesnt place much value on children (like I did when I was younger) it is natural to feel the value placed on them by the majority of society is over done.  
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2010, 01:44:27 PM »
Could you provide an example of children being over valued?  What is over valued anyway besides some kind of opinion?

Yeah there are brat kids.  But who knows what they will grow up to be.  And not all old people are good people.  The only difference between older people and kids, is the ability to comprehend life and consequences for actions and other higher thinking things like this.  Children have innocence because they don't fully understand the world yet.  I think in general children are not over valued.  Maybe some kids are?  but in general I think kids should most definitely be cared about and protected so they can grow up and develop for themselves.

Can anyone actually disagree with that?  I mean to disagree with that is basically saying you yourself should not be valued, and should not have been taken care of enough to grow up and develop into who you are today.  

And when you are older and perhaps become sick, and some young doctor find the cure for you, I don't think you'd feel as bitter.  Just saying.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2010, 01:45:36 PM »
Saying that someone who touches a child sexually, is equal to someone who murders an adult is over valuing a child.


Hiding the real world from a child is over valuing a child.

There are other examples, but I don't feel like this is really my argument, so I'll let Bart finish if he so chooses.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2010, 01:50:21 PM »
Saying that someone who touches a child sexually, is equal to someone who murders an adult is over valuing a child.

That can hardly be used as an example.  I dont think that is the prevalent view of most.  Murder is on another plane compared to sexual abuse...regardless of the victims age.  Apples to oranges.

Hiding the real world from a child is over valuing a child.

Hiding the "real world" is waaaay to vague too use as an example.  Children should be exposed and educated about the "real" world at a proper pace.  And there are some things a child should not be exposed to at any age.

There are other examples, but I don't feel like this is really my argument, so I'll let Bart finish if he so chooses.

None of those are good examples of "overvaluing" IMO
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 02:43:05 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2010, 01:56:45 PM »
Just a question...and a serious one.  
How many posters that feel children are overvalued actually have children?
I dont mean to say the usual, "well you wouldnt know until you have children" thing, but it really is true.  The reason why children are so valued in society is that so many have had children, and the value you put on your own children is beyond comprehension if you arent a parent.  Not only do I feel that way about my own, but it translates to children in general.  Unless you are a parent, it will be difficult to understand....I sure didnt until I had my own....it goes beyong logic.  I would happily die a horrible death if it would save my daughter.
Some would say that is overvaluing.....I find it to be natural.

EDIT: This discussion may have paralells to some on religion.  In a discussion about the "value", for lack of a better word, of religion in ones life, or society as a whole, it will be unlikely that two sides can come to a real consensus.  The two sides being an atheist, and a christian who has had a revelation from god.  The later has had a life changing experience that has altered the way they see the world.
Same with being a parent. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 02:01:51 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline Adami

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2010, 01:58:09 PM »
Just a question...and a serious one. 
How many posters that feel children are overvalued actually have children?
I dont mean to say the usual, "well you wouldnt know until you have children" thing, but it really is true.  The reason why children are so valued in society is that so many have had children, and the value you put on your own children is beyond comprehension if you arent a parent.  Not only do I feel that way about my own, but it translates to children in general.  Unless you are a parent, it will be difficult to understand.  it goes beyong logic.  I would happily die a horrible death if it would save my daughter.
Some would say that is overvaluing.....I find it to be natural.

I don't think the OP meant that people overvalue their own children, that society as a whole overvalues anyones children. So in this case, it's probably children who you don't know.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2010, 02:04:13 PM »
Just a question...and a serious one.  
How many posters that feel children are overvalued actually have children?
I dont mean to say the usual, "well you wouldnt know until you have children" thing, but it really is true.  The reason why children are so valued in society is that so many have had children, and the value you put on your own children is beyond comprehension if you arent a parent.  Not only do I feel that way about my own, but it translates to children in general.  Unless you are a parent, it will be difficult to understand.  it goes beyong logic.  I would happily die a horrible death if it would save my daughter.
Some would say that is overvaluing.....I find it to be natural.

I don't think the OP meant that people overvalue their own children, that society as a whole overvalues anyones children. So in this case, it's probably children who you don't know.

But part of my point was that by being a parent, you value all children differently, not just yours.  With so many parents in the world, that is what can shape societys values.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 02:36:38 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline TAC

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2010, 02:13:13 PM »
The "you wouldn't know until you had kids of your own" is real. I had a stepson (he was 5 when I met my wife) and then we had my kids. BIG f##king difference.
How you look at the world changes after becoming a parent. No matter what the non parents want to believe.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2010, 02:30:19 PM »
Saying that someone who touches a child sexually, is equal to someone who murders an adult is over valuing a child.


Hiding the real world from a child is over valuing a child.

There are other examples, but I don't feel like this is really my argument, so I'll let Bart finish if he so chooses.

Well like I thought, saying children are over valued is just an opinion you have.  Just like my opinion that sexually abusing a child is just as egregious an act against another human being as murder.  I really feel they are on the same level of awfulness.  To me, it's the two worst things you can do to another person.  And it's not just child abuse.  I think rape is right there too.  So opinions.

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Offline icysk8r

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2010, 03:04:31 PM »
The "you wouldn't know until you had kids of your own" is real. I had a stepson (he was 5 when I met my wife) and then we had my kids. BIG f##king difference.
How you look at the world changes after becoming a parent. No matter what the non parents want to believe.
But it isn't a one way street.  Non-Parents can call parents overprotective and naive just as a Parent could call a non-parent careless or inexperienced. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2010, 03:06:14 PM »
The "you wouldn't know until you had kids of your own" is real. I had a stepson (he was 5 when I met my wife) and then we had my kids. BIG f##king difference.
How you look at the world changes after becoming a parent. No matter what the non parents want to believe.

Yes, and we all have parents (most of us anyway) and grandparents. Yet we care more if a 7 year old we never met died, than we would if a father of 4 had died. Unless he course his children were very young. And then we'd just care about them living without a father.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2010, 05:03:30 PM »
The "you wouldn't know until you had kids of your own" is real. I had a stepson (he was 5 when I met my wife) and then we had my kids. BIG f##king difference.
How you look at the world changes after becoming a parent. No matter what the non parents want to believe.

Yes, and we all have parents (most of us anyway) and grandparents. Yet we care more if a 7 year old we never met died, than we would if a father of 4 had died. Unless he course his children were very young. And then we'd just care about them living without a father.

Correct.  Society only cares if you die before puberty.   :\
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:50:25 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline Adami

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2010, 05:09:33 PM »
That's not too terribly far off.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2010, 07:18:00 PM »
Okay, let's get this back on track.  Here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZktrrqT1A0
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2010, 07:19:58 PM »
I haven't really been following the thread at all, but I wanted to pop in and say that I do care about the children.

Offline icysk8r

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2010, 07:25:53 PM »
I haven't really been following the thread at all, but I wanted to pop in and say that I do care about the children.
Care to elaborate why?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2010, 07:27:48 PM »
Because they post in this thread and ask the cutest little questions?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Who cares about the children?
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2010, 07:29:17 PM »
I haven't really been following the thread at all, but I wanted to pop in and say that I do care about the children.
Care to elaborate why?

Number one reason:
Because they post in this thread and ask the cutest little questions?

and number two reason:
Okay, let's get this back on track.  Here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZktrrqT1A0







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