Author Topic: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.  (Read 12484 times)

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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2010, 10:59:09 AM »
??? He doesn't say that, he's practically on the opposite end of the spectrum.  That was my point.

Calvin was a pretty crappy philosopher, among other things.  It's impossible to reconcile free will with the Calvinist notion of hardline predestination.

-J

I've never tried. We humans don't have a free will.

Also you still haven't given me proofs. Did you actually read Calvin?

Offline j

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2010, 11:23:27 AM »
I've never tried. We humans don't have a free will.

What?  Good lord dude, I have no clue what you're trying to argue or why.  If you want to discuss something, maybe start by formulating a simple argument so we're all not trying desperately to follow some inane train of "logic".  And I use that term loosely.

Quote
Also you still haven't given me proofs. Did you actually read Calvin?

::)

I have no idea what you mean by "proofs", but here's a Calvin quote on predestination.

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or death."

-J

Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM »
I've never tried. We humans don't have a free will.

What?  Good lord dude, I have no clue what you're trying to argue or why.  If you want to discuss something, maybe start by formulating a simple argument so we're all not trying desperately to follow some inane train of "logic".  And I use that term loosely.

Quote
Also you still haven't given me proofs. Did you actually read Calvin?

::)

I have no idea what you mean by "proofs", but here's a Calvin quote on predestination.

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or death."

-J

Ok

Point one

Humans don't have a free will anymore. We did in Eden but then surrendered it by eating the fruit. What humans have now is a will that has been totally infiected with sin. Our will is dominated by our selfish desires. So much so that we  can't actually choose salvation for ourselves.

Start with that.

Point two.

You just proved my point abuot Calvin. He says unmistakeably here that God predestined (not foreknew like you said previously) some people to be saved.

Offline j

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2010, 04:31:15 PM »
Ok

Point one

Humans don't have a free will anymore. We did in Eden but then surrendered it by eating the fruit. What humans have now is a will that has been totally infiected with sin. Our will is dominated by our selfish desires. So much so that we  can't actually choose salvation for ourselves.

So we don't choose to "accept Jesus" or have faith or whatever?  God's already decided, the individual has nothing to do with it?  Just to be clear.

Quote
Point two.

You just proved my point abuot Calvin. He says unmistakeably here that God predestined (not foreknew like you said previously) some people to be saved.

Then we were making the same point, except I'm saying that Calvin is wrong, only because he takes Paul's words and extrapolates way too far.  Like I said, it's mostly a matter of semantics, but based on some of Calvin's language, he spends a lot of time emphasizing the wrong things.  There's only one logical position that meshes with several fundamental tenets of Christianity and that is: God knows, but he isn't a puppet master.

-J

Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2010, 04:50:12 PM »
Ok

Point one

Humans don't have a free will anymore. We did in Eden but then surrendered it by eating the fruit. What humans have now is a will that has been totally infiected with sin. Our will is dominated by our selfish desires. So much so that we  can't actually choose salvation for ourselves.

So we don't choose to "accept Jesus" or have faith or whatever?  God's already decided, the individual has nothing to do with it?  Just to be clear.

Human's don't have the ability to choose salvation for themselves.

I'd also like to defy you to find somewhere in the bible where it says that humans had free will after the fall. when you do I'll come back with biblical evidence as proof of total depravity

Quote
Point two.

You just proved my point abuot Calvin. He says unmistakeably here that God predestined (not foreknew like you said previously) some people to be saved.

Then we were making the same point, except I'm saying that Calvin is wrong, only because he takes Paul's words and extrapolates way too far.  Like I said, it's mostly a matter of semantics, but based on some of Calvin's language, he spends a lot of time emphasizing the wrong things.  There's only one logical position that meshes with several fundamental tenets of Christianity and that is: God knows, but he isn't a puppet master.

-J
[/quote]

If this is going to get down to a debate about the bible could we please use the bible to back up our points?
It's also not JUST Paul's theology. but if you want to limit it to Paul that's fine.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2010, 04:51:47 PM »
Wait, I'm a bit confused. People don't have the ability to choose salvation?

Does that mean that those who don't believe in jesus never could have? Or am I confused?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2010, 05:21:21 PM »
Wait, I'm a bit confused. People don't have the ability to choose salvation?

Does that mean that those who don't believe in jesus never could have? Or am I confused?

They were responsible for their actions.

God gave them every chance. Romans 1 says:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.


So humans are definitely rrsponsible fore their actions but John 6 says

 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

So. Yes Man is responsible for his actions but it requires an act of God's grace to enable a man to turn to Christ.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2010, 05:23:07 PM »
Does god grant that act of grace to every person?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2010, 05:32:43 PM »
Does god grant that act of grace to every person?

short answer is no. All Humans are not saved until God reaches in and saves some.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2010, 05:33:56 PM »
Interesting. Why some and not others? How many?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2010, 05:47:05 PM »
Interesting. Why some and not others? How many?

Romans 9

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

It's not for me to know why x and not y gets chosen, but it's not based on merit. I'm just as sinful as the next guy.
I don't know how many either. Only God knows.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2010, 05:49:20 PM »
Do you feel you are provided with salvation?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2010, 06:04:42 PM »
Do you feel you are provided with salvation?
[/quote

Yeah. I can see how God's Holy Spirit has been at work in my life.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2010, 06:06:45 PM »
So anyone who has been offered salvation, can tell, right?

Is it possible that someone who thinks they have been offered salvation is wrong?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2010, 06:23:13 PM »
So anyone who has been offered salvation, can tell, right?

Is it possible that someone who thinks they have been offered salvation is wrong?

Everyone has moments where they doubt their salvation. The English Puritans gave themselves almost no hope of salvation because they were so focussed on being Holy.

Someone who thinks they have been saved but haven't will usually show signs. Those that end up rejecting God weren't elected to begin with.

Someone who isn't elect wont try as hard to grow closer to God.

Matthew 7 says:

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2010, 06:36:13 PM »
So is there a possibility that you're not offered (you specifically) salvation?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2010, 06:38:17 PM »
So is there a possibility that you're not offered (you specifically) salvation?

Sure. But there isn't :P

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2010, 06:39:14 PM »
So is there a possibility that you're not offered (you specifically) salvation?

Sure. But there isn't :P

So you're saying that you know a fact that god has chosen you. And there is 0% chance that you could be wrong.

Right?
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2010, 06:42:56 PM »
So is there a possibility that you're not offered (you specifically) salvation?

Sure. But there isn't :P

So you're saying that you know a fact that god has chosen you. And there is 0% chance that you could be wrong.

Right?


can we hurry up and get to the point of these questions?

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2010, 06:44:04 PM »
The point is curiosity. I'm not trying to trick you into admitting anything, just trying to understand some of what you're saying. It's not a very popular belief, so I'm not as exposed to it.

No need to be so hostile.
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2010, 07:15:32 PM »
The point is curiosity. I'm not trying to trick you into admitting anything, just trying to understand some of what you're saying. It's not a very popular belief, so I'm not as exposed to it.

No need to be so hostile.

By the evidence i can tell that God through grace predestined me.

Let's look at it this way.

Salvation is by faith. Faith is a gift of God's grace (as we can't earn it ourselves) Grace is given by God's predestining me to be a follower of Christ.

I have salvation because I have faith in God. I didn't earn my salvation but God gave it to me nonetheless. Evidence I find is in God's Holy Spirit progressively "santifying" me. I don't blame you if you don't know what sanctifying is. It's basically God drawing me closer to him and turning my focus to him more than the world.

I didn't mean to come across as hostile so much as resigned. That's the ways of the intarwebs.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #91 on: October 22, 2010, 07:17:14 PM »
I know what sanctification is, thanks.
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #92 on: October 22, 2010, 07:18:34 PM »
I know what sanctification is, thanks.

Cool I didn't want to come off using too much jargon to sound superior.

Online Adami

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #93 on: October 22, 2010, 07:20:03 PM »
A good number of people here are rather educated. You needn't worry about confusing us with big words.
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Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #94 on: October 22, 2010, 07:25:11 PM »
A good number of people here are rather educated. You needn't worry about confusing us with big words.

I don't care so much about that as I do about confusing people with Jargon. Progressive sanctification is pretty much a Christian concept so far as I know.

Offline j

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2010, 08:40:29 PM »
Ok

Point one

Humans don't have a free will anymore. We did in Eden but then surrendered it by eating the fruit. What humans have now is a will that has been totally infiected with sin. Our will is dominated by our selfish desires. So much so that we  can't actually choose salvation for ourselves.

So we don't choose to "accept Jesus" or have faith or whatever?  God's already decided, the individual has nothing to do with it?  Just to be clear.

Human's don't have the ability to choose salvation for themselves.

I'd also like to defy you to find somewhere in the bible where it says that humans had free will after the fall. when you do I'll come back with biblical evidence as proof of total depravity

It doesn't say humans have or don't have free will.  Doesn't matter, because it comes down to how you think human nature was damaged with the Fall.

The biblical evidence for total depravity is pretty scarce from what I recall, but I'm not interested in debating it.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Point two.

You just proved my point abuot Calvin. He says unmistakeably here that God predestined (not foreknew like you said previously) some people to be saved.

Then we were making the same point, except I'm saying that Calvin is wrong, only because he takes Paul's words and extrapolates way too far.  Like I said, it's mostly a matter of semantics, but based on some of Calvin's language, he spends a lot of time emphasizing the wrong things.  There's only one logical position that meshes with several fundamental tenets of Christianity and that is: God knows, but he isn't a puppet master.

-J

If this is going to get down to a debate about the bible could we please use the bible to back up our points?
It's also not JUST Paul's theology. but if you want to limit it to Paul that's fine.

Not interested.  Done it a million times, never goes anywhere.  People just quote shit out of context and interpret it to mean what they've already decided it means.  I can think of few more fruitless things to do with my time.

So is there a possibility that you're not offered (you specifically) salvation?

Sure. But there isn't :P

So you're saying that you know a fact that god has chosen you. And there is 0% chance that you could be wrong.

Right?


can we hurry up and get to the point of these questions?

Is that a "yes"?

I've never met a Calvinist or other person who holds a similar view of these matters who WASN'T absolutely certain that they were one of the "chosen ones".  Coincidence? :lol ::)

-J

Offline Philawallafox

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Re: Pre-Christianity, all people went to Hell.
« Reply #96 on: October 22, 2010, 09:52:34 PM »
Ok

Point one

Humans don't have a free will anymore. We did in Eden but then surrendered it by eating the fruit. What humans have now is a will that has been totally infiected with sin. Our will is dominated by our selfish desires. So much so that we  can't actually choose salvation for ourselves.

So we don't choose to "accept Jesus" or have faith or whatever?  God's already decided, the individual has nothing to do with it?  Just to be clear.

Human's don't have the ability to choose salvation for themselves.

I'd also like to defy you to find somewhere in the bible where it says that humans had free will after the fall. when you do I'll come back with biblical evidence as proof of total depravity

It doesn't say humans have or don't have free will.  Doesn't matter, because it comes down to how you think human nature was damaged with the Fall.

The biblical evidence for total depravity is pretty scarce from what I recall, but I'm not interested in debating it.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Point two.

You just proved my point abuot Calvin. He says unmistakeably here that God predestined (not foreknew like you said previously) some people to be saved.

Then we were making the same point, except I'm saying that Calvin is wrong, only because he takes Paul's words and extrapolates way too far.  Like I said, it's mostly a matter of semantics, but based on some of Calvin's language, he spends a lot of time emphasizing the wrong things.  There's only one logical position that meshes with several fundamental tenets of Christianity and that is: God knows, but he isn't a puppet master.

-J

If this is going to get down to a debate about the bible could we please use the bible to back up our points?
It's also not JUST Paul's theology. but if you want to limit it to Paul that's fine.

Not interested.  Done it a million times, never goes anywhere.  People just quote shit out of context and interpret it to mean what they've already decided it means.  I can think of few more fruitless things to do with my time.

So is there a possibility that you're not offered (you specifically) salvation?

Sure. But there isn't :P

So you're saying that you know a fact that god has chosen you. And there is 0% chance that you could be wrong.

Right?


can we hurry up and get to the point of these questions?

Is that a "yes"?

I've never met a Calvinist or other person who holds a similar view of these matters who WASN'T absolutely certain that they were one of the "chosen ones".  Coincidence? :lol ::)

-J

Hey it's not a bad thing that we are secure in our salvation.
Did you read the rest of what I said to Adami? I think I did a pretty good job of not quoting the bible out of context.

However if you're just going to engage in rhetoric. Why do you keep mentioning Paul? It's not just a Pauline doctrine. i also think it's pretty hard to misconstrue it in the original greek. the word that we translate literally means to be "predestined"