The Republic of DTF

[Super Dude]

Our ideologies, backgrounds, beliefs, and nationalities are incredibly diverse, and the world economic and political climate make for conditions that could hardly be more ideal to ask the following question.

I would like to begin a modern discussion and rethinking of the old discussion: what is just?

[bosk1]

Dude, it's way to early in the morning to be drinking.

[Super Dude]

I'm too young to drink, you know that.

I thought it would be fun to have a modern reimagining of Plato's question of justice.

[Super Dude]

And I was hoping not to have to invoke Plato's name so the discussion could be a little more freeform and less constrained by the classic (read: not as pretentious).

[icysk8r]

I'm not gonna make a whole list of things because I'm kind of strapped for time, but I'd just like to throw in one detail:  Innocent until proven guilty.

[Super Dude]

Oh, I didn't mean what are just beliefs; I want to inquire into the nature of justice itself.

[rumborak]

I think the concept of "justice" is directly based on the concept of reciprocity. That is, a judgment is considered just if everybody (or at least the majority) would agree to be punished/treated the same were they in the position of the accused.

rumborak

[73109]

But who would ever agree to be in the position of the accused on death row?

"Yeah, if I raped and murdered a 6 year old, I would want them to fry me"

Bull.

Am I on the correct path here because I am kinda wushy about what you are getting at, SD.

[Super Dude]

I'm not trying to make a point, I'm trying to generate discussion. Note that I didn't ask what was fair or good or desirable: I ask only what is just?

[73109]

Something just is just and just changes according to whatever someone feels is just.

No, in all seriousness, I really like the idea of this thread and if it could be changed ever so often with a different topic, I can see myself spending a lot of time here.

[Super Dude]

It will and I intend to steer the course of this discussion when more people contribute ideas as to what the just is.

[73109]

I was thinking of a straight up philosophy thread with a new topic every week or so. I could do it, or if this is what it will become, go ahead.

Just is what the societal norm consider to be the right thing.

[Super Dude]

So you believe, as Rumbo would appear to, that justice is the product of majority consent?

[73109]

Yeah, but what is just to one society is not just to another society, so, there is no universal code of just. Only what is just to a group of people...

Should I make that thread, or is that thread what this thread?

[Super Dude]

Well you'll see. This thread is about philosophical discussion but it will be tied to this concept of the just. You can make your thread too, no one's stopping you.

[73109]

OK then...I'm gonna put it in GD. I am going to try to keep religion out of it.

Edit: It is up.

[rumborak]

So you believe, as Rumbo would appear to, that justice is the product of majority consent?

I believe so, yes. It is the norm of judgment that the most people can agree on, i.e. that most people can say of "yes, if this was judged against me, I would consider it appropriate".

I guess I don't have to point out that justice is different in every country, just as every culture is different. In some countries, cutting off a hand is considered appropriate and just to punish theft. We would consider it unjust.

rumborak

[rumborak]

But who would ever agree to be in the position of the accused on death row?

"Yeah, if I raped and murdered a 6 year old, I would want them to fry me"

Bull.

The question is not what the accused is considering an appropriate judgment. He is just trying to save his hide at that moment.
And let's not focus on rape and death rows. Almost all ethical constructs fall apart when considering these cases. Justice is much more important in the everyday cases, and there the consideration of "if I did this, what would I consider an appropriate judgment?" is the one that defines justice.

rumborak

[hefdaddy42]

I find it interesting that all replies thus far have dealt with retributive justice, as opposed to distributive justice or social justice.

[rumborak]

Care to elaborate the differences? I have never heard those terms before.

rumborak

[Super Dude]

I find it interesting that all replies thus far have dealt with retributive justice, as opposed to distributive justice or social justice.

Well yeah, this is pretty much the sort of thing I want to tackle.

[hefdaddy42]

Care to elaborate the differences? I have never heard those terms before.

rumborak

Retributive justice basically deals with crime & punishment.  Social justice or distributive justice deal with things like human rights, human dignity, egalitarianism, everyone getting what they need, etc.

[rumborak]

Care to elaborate the differences? I have never heard those terms before.

rumborak

Retributive justice basically deals with crime & punishment.  Social justice or distributive justice deal with things like human rights, human dignity, egalitarianism, everyone getting what they need, etc.

I singled out crime and punishment in my post, but my basic concept, i.e. that justice is essentially reciprocity, applies to those fields too.

rumborak

[73109]

^^^same here with my post

[emindead]

If I'm not mistaken, Plato concluded in The Republic that Justice means that "everyone gets what they deserve". Even my teacher, who is a Ph.D in Plato is not satisfied with that answer (considering the construction of his arguments in these dialogues).

I think this is a good thread; back to basics. I would like to know if Aristotle ever defined what Justice is, or if he attained to what Plato said and carried on developing reason as his most important attribution to humanity.

[TheVoxyn]

I must say that I enjoyed reading The Republic (and want to read it again sometime) but the book about justice was probably my least favorite part.

[Super Dude]

If I'm not mistaken, Plato concluded in The Republic that Justice means that "everyone gets what they deserve". Even my teacher, who is a Ph.D in Plato is not satisfied with that answer (considering the construction of his arguments in these dialogues).

I think this is a good thread; back to basics. I would like to know if Aristotle ever defined what Justice is, or if he attained to what Plato said and carried on developing reason as his most important attribution to humanity.

Well, in that case, what do you believe the just is?

[Zook]

Justice is what you feel in your heart. Like if you get stung by a wasp and then you kill that wasp, that's fucking justice right there.

[Super Dude]

So then, no more introductions:
Ladies and gentlemen, in your opinion, what is the just?

[rumborak]

I don't think "just" is a noun.

rumborak

[Adami]

I don't think "just" is a noun.

rumborak

Yea, that's pretty much the just of it anyway.

[Progmetty]

[Super Dude]

I was kinda hoping you guys would stay away from this thread. I knew you wouldn't take it seriously.

[Adami]

I was kinda hoping you guys would stay away from this thread. I knew you wouldn't take it seriously.

The expansion and promotion of freedom and the reduction of harm. Punishment for the sake of punishment, revenge and morality have no place in justice. Logic should rule above all else.

Happy?

[Progmetty]

Adon Adami is still very hakham!