Can dT like Rite of Passage?

[tri.ad]

Wither really is an overlooked gem on BCASL; it's actually my favourite song on the album after The Count Of Tuscany.

[ariich]

It's my favourite song on the album, just ahead of TCOT. Both are great though.

[hefdaddy42]

I love Wither.  Fantastic song.

[2Timer]

I think with the last couple of albums DT has seen their fanbase growing and they like it, therefore they might devote one or two tracks on the album they're working on to trying to break through to mainstream a bit more. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but mainstream music fans want predictability in their music. Don't ask me why, but they do.
The guys are trying to cater to that crowd a little while still giving us what we want the other 70 or 80% of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially since, imo, they're getting better at writing catchy hooks.
And there are a couple of DT songs that I don't like and they tend to play live a lot, but I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick. The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.

[Perpetual Change]

They've always tried to break into the mainstream. The only era were it seems like there wasn't an obvious attempt was probably Scenes --> Octavarium. And even on Octavarium, I'd heard that they originally wanted a music video to go with I Walk Beside You.

[LKap13]

I think with the last couple of albums DT has seen their fanbase growing and they like it, therefore they might devote one or two tracks on the album they're working on to trying to break through to mainstream a bit more. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but mainstream music fans want predictability in their music. Don't ask me why, but they do.
The guys are trying to cater to that crowd a little while still giving us what we want the other 70 or 80% of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially since, imo, they're getting better at writing catchy hooks.
And there are a couple of DT songs that I don't like and they tend to play live a lot, but I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick. The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.

I think I agree with everything you've said here, 2Timer. I fully understand the band's desire to break into the mainstream to acquire more fans (and make more money). In fact, last night I was trying to find the results of the band's quest to do so by seeing if BC&SL had more album sales than previous records. I wasn't able to find definite numbers, but I think the album was higher on the Billboard 100 charts than Systematic Chaos, which was previously the highest ranked album. (Does anyone have any more definite data?)
If this is the case, that DT is in fact growing in popularity, then I would expect the band to be a little more enthusiastic about going into the studio. Anways, I'm fine with one crappy mainstream song per album for the sake of expanding the fanbase. I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily 

[BRGM]

I can't say they have any Crappy mainstream songs on BC&SL, I like all songs here. but I see what u mean.

[Nick]

W.T.F. I wish I wasn't on my phone.

[Nick]

p.s. that post made after only reading first few posts of thread.

[Perpetual Change]

Get 'em, Nick.

[ariich]

I think with the last couple of albums DT has seen their fanbase growing and they like it, therefore they might devote one or two tracks on the album they're working on to trying to break through to mainstream a bit more. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but mainstream music fans want predictability in their music. Don't ask me why, but they do.
The guys are trying to cater to that crowd a little while still giving us what we want the other 70 or 80% of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially since, imo, they're getting better at writing catchy hooks.
And there are a couple of DT songs that I don't like and they tend to play live a lot, but I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick. The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.

Great post 2Timer, I really couldn't have said it any better (or even nearly as good) myself.

[King Postwhore]

In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.

[robwebster]

I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick.

The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.

These two bits in particular are fantastically quotable. You're my new favourite.

[ariich]

In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.

This is a good point, although a fair amount of SFAM is very accessible (TSCO for example). So really it's just SDOIT.

[LKap13]

I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick.

The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.

These two bits in particular are fantastically quotable. You're my new favourite.

I agree with the second bit being quotable. The first bit, on the other hand, not so much. In context, I have absolutely no objection to the first bit being in 2Timer's orginial post; however, I wholeheartedly object to robwebster's drawing attention to it. When quoted, it sounds cheap.

[ariich]

Knowing 2Timer, I very much doubt it was meant as a slight against you, but more as a general statement. We see similar comments to yours about all sorts of things quite a lot.

[robwebster]

I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick.

The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.

These two bits in particular are fantastically quotable. You're my new favourite.

I agree with the second bit being quotable. The first bit, on the other hand, not so much. In context, I have absolutely no objection to the first bit being in 2Timer's orginial post; however, I wholeheartedly object to robwebster's drawing attention to it. When quoted, it sounds cheap.

Sorry cap'n, but I think it's a fair comment. If it's any consolation I'm not singling you out, loads of people do it. You just happened to be one who did it in the thread where he mentioned it, and that's one of my favourite bits of commentary I've read so I'm happy to reinforce it. Don't take it personally.

It's like, I don't like Scarred. Ah well! That's my problem, not the band's. Like he says, fling enough shit at a wall and eventually some of it won't stick. The sky's not falling, just... accept it. Aye, they can like AROP. Pretty fond of it, even - they put it on an album and everything. It's a shame that you don't, but life goes on.

[King Postwhore]

I think we can all say a band does what it wants, and rightfully so, and as a consumer I have the right to like or not like.  It's like that saying about TV.  If you don't like what's on, change the channel.

[2Timer]

 
Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!

[Nick]

Every time I start going through this thread I realize I can't respond to all this bullshit and baseless dumb posts without writing a mini-thesis. Due to certain people I can say this is honestly one of the worst threads I've ever seen. If this thread was a song, it would be worse than A Rite of Passage, no matter what your opinion of that song is, or however much you think you can objectively say how good or bad it is, in any case I guarantee you that the song called this thread is far worse.

[The Letter M]

In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.

This is a good point, although a fair amount of SFAM is very accessible (TSCO for example). So really it's just SDOIT.

Exactly, like "The Spirit Carries On" or even the one that GOT a single released, "Through Her Eyes". And actually, aren't SDOIT and 8VM the only albums without some sort of CD single released from that album?

I know WDADU had "Status Seeker" and "Afterlife"; IAW had "Pull Me Under", "Another Day" and "Take The Time"; Awake had "The Silent Man", "Caught In A Web" and "Lie"; FII with "Burning My Soul", "You Not Me" and "Hollow Years"; SFAM released the aforementioned "Through Her Eyes" single (more like EP at it's length!) and the lesser known "Home" single; "As I Am" was released from TOT; and the last two albums' single should be well known.

It's unfortunate because 8VM would've done well with "Panic Attack", and possibly even "I Walk Beside You", (really any of the -10 minute songs would've done well as singles)... makes one wonder why nothing was tried for SDOIT, though. I guess most of the album isn't as easily accessible, and the radio edits they made weren't so good, IMO.

-Marc.

[Nick]

Let's start at the beginning.

This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?

Thoughts?

So let's get this straight, you've decided that "Rite of Passage" is a bad song, and so the band obviously shares your enlightened opinion that the song they've just spend days or weeks working on is also a bad song. Also, Dream Theater (notice how both words are capitalized?) are sitting around, consciously thinking to themselves, "If we could only talk to Dream Theater, they could tell us what we should sound like!" And then to top it off, the guys knowing the song doesn't sound like Dream Theater, and knowing the song is horrible, release it on an album anyway in order to make a music video and perhaps get a few spins on the radio.

It all makes sense now.

[Nick]

I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

YOU are also on very thin ice. Constructive criticism is allowed, however outright bashing is NOT. Heaven forbid Dream Theater don't "realise" their music has been getting as piss poor as this post. I find it so very odd that the guys who make a career out of Dream Theater actually enjoy and believe in the music they are releasing and feel each album is stronger than the one before it.

[Nick]

At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).

1. Would this song be exciting live?

2. Is this song fun for us to play?

As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.

I agree, but the bolded part is an understatement. DT (particularly JP and MP) have, more than once, implicitly stated that they tend to write more music that is likely to receive a good response from the concert audience these days.

Two very good points, especially the first that so much of the critical points in this thread are unsubstantiated. And while I personally don't think they completely pre-occupy themselves with thinking about how a crowd will react (with the exception of Train of Thought, which they stated was a "live" album), I think the keep it in mind. I however do not believe that is necessarily a bad thing.

[Nick]

And for the record, although stated in the original post, the actual arguments in the thread should have nothing to do with A Rite of Passage. ANY song could have been mentioned and a few people would have agreed it was bad, some would say it was alright, and most would say they enjoy it. That is not the point, the point is that people actually think because they think it's a bad song Dream Theater collectively obvious must know what a bad song it was when they released it.

I personally dislike The Ministry of Lost Souls, yet I bet 70% of Dream Theater fans would say they love it, and in any case I would not in a million years say, "Wow, what a bad song, what were they thinking, didn't they know how obviously bad that was when they wrote it?"

They wouldn't have made the song if they didn't believe in it.

[contest_sanity]

In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.

This is a good point, although a fair amount of SFAM is very accessible (TSCO for example). So really it's just SDOIT.

And even with Six Degrees there's "Solitary Shell."

[setrataeso]

The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit.

I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily 

These were easily the two stupidest and most frustrating things to read in this thread.
How in hell do you get the audacity to say what JP likes and doesn't like? How do you not realize that your perception of Dream Theater, DTF, and both of their opinions on A Rite of Passage (and subsequently, a bunch of Dream Theater's other material) is totally off-the-mark.

If Dream Theater did not like A Rite of Passage, why would they release it!?
Let alone make a video for it!?
Let alone go on tour, and play it over 100 times!?

Also, while I don't like to point out things like post counts in order to make a point, you have 33 post! Why do you think that you have a solid grasp on what DTF's general opinion is on any given song. Unless you've been lurking like a mad man...

I wish I could respond to InTheNameOfGod's posts as well, but I'll leave that be.

P.S - Don't write it dT. It looks stupid.

[LKap13]

If Dream Theater did not like A Rite of Passage, why would they release it!?
Let alone make a video for it!?
Let alone go on tour, and play it over 100 times!?

Apparently you can't fathom a band releasing a song to acquire more fans and appeal to a wider fan base.

The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit.

I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily 

These were easily the two stupidest and most frustrating things to read in this thread.
How in hell do you get the audacity to say what JP likes and doesn't like? How do you not realize that your perception of Dream Theater, DTF, and both of their opinions on A Rite of Passage (and subsequently, a bunch of Dream Theater's other material) is totally off-the-mark.

It doesn't take audacity to speculate as to whether an artist truly likes his work. It's a fair question, IMO. Also, I stated "This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while" in the initial post.
Nobody's "perception" of DT can be fully on-the-mark. It's hard to say what the members of the band feel about their music because it's highly unlikely that JP will come out in an interview and say "AROP is really not that great". It's simply not a wise move from a business standpoint (I think you can understand that). 
Overall, you've displayed the utmost naivety in first taking for granted that all members of DT love all their music, and second assuming that one's "perception" of DT can justify an opinion about a song. 

[Adami]

Some bands write songs with the sole intention of them becoming popular. DT are one of those bands. However, most of those bands also LIKE the songs themselves, DT are one of those bands as well. They probably don't say "Hey, AROP is an opus to music, it is the greatest song to have ever been written". Its probably more like "Hey, this song is cool".

[LKap13]

I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

YOU are also on very thin ice. Constructive criticism is allowed, however outright bashing is NOT. Heaven forbid Dream Theater don't "realise" their music has been getting as piss poor as this post. I find it so very odd that the guys who make a career out of Dream Theater actually enjoy and believe in the music they are releasing and feel each album is stronger than the one before it.

Why can an artist not recognize that the work he's doing now is worse than the work he did in the past? Do you think that the members of DTF can realize that the quality of music on I&W and Awake is better than the quality of AROP, but the members of DT can't? Just because they're making the music, it doesn't mean that they become blind to reality.
You can question my definition of "reality" and "better" all you want. It's hard to argue about art because of the subjectivity involved, but Kant believed that there was such a thing as objective beauty, and I happen to buy into that theory. I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree.

[LKap13]

Some bands write songs with the sole intention of them becoming popular. DT are one of those bands. However, most of those bands also LIKE the songs themselves, DT are one of those bands as well. They probably don't say "Hey, AROP is an opus to music, it is the greatest song to have ever been written". Its probably more like "Hey, this song is cool".

I can buy this.

[setrataeso]

It doesn't take audacity to speculate as to whether an artist truly likes his work. It's a fair question, IMO. Also, I stated "This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while" in the initial post.
Nobody's "perception" of DT can be fully on-the-mark. It's hard to say what the members of the band feel about their music because it's highly unlikely that JP will come out in an interview and say "AROP is really not that great". It's simply not a wise move from a business standpoint (I think you can understand that). 
Overall, you've displayed the utmost naivety in first taking for granted that all members of DT love all their music, and second assuming that one's "perception" of DT can justify an opinion about a song. 

I never said that all members of DT love all their songs.
JP has stated he is not fond of playing Scarred. JLB says that New Millennium is his least favourite DT song to sing. Also, pretty much every member of DT except for MP is not crazy about pre-I&W material.
But, those songs have aged. The band members look back and say "yeah, that wasn't the greatest song" or even just "I guess that's the sound we were going for back then".
Hell, Mike said in a recent interview that it takes a few years to really be able to get a good opinion on an album they released.
However, BC&SL has, obviously, not had the time to simmer in DT's catalog. So, what does DT think about BC&SL? Well, if their remarks when it came out are to be believed, I think they are pretty damn happy with every song.
So, I don't see how I'm being naive in believing that DT likes the music they just put out when THEY FUCKING SAID IT THEMSELVES

Also, I never correlated the two separate points of your opinion of DT and your perception of DT, so I don't know where you get that idea from...

[setrataeso]

I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree.

I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.

[LKap13]

I never said that all members of DT love all their songs.
JP has stated he is not fond of playing Scarred. JLB says that New Millennium is his least favourite DT song to sing. Also, pretty much every member of DT except for MP is not crazy about pre-I&W material.
But, those songs have aged. The band members look back and say "yeah, that wasn't the greatest song" or even just "I guess that's the sound we were going for back then".
Hell, Mike said in a recent interview that it takes a few years to really be able to get a good opinion on an album they released.
However, BC&SL has, obviously, not had the time to simmer in DT's catalog. So, what does DT think about BC&SL? Well, if their remarks when it came out are to be believed, I think they are pretty damn happy with every song.

First, your mention of the material JP and JLB don't like to perform live is irrelevant. I hope you can agree. Also, the members not being crazy about pre-I&W material doesn't indicate that they would come out and say they're not crazy about their latest album. Again, it has to do with business!

So, I don't see how I'm being naive in believing that DT likes the music they just put out when THEY FUCKING SAID IT THEMSELVES

This statement is very disturbing and self-destructive from a logical perspective. You are demonstrating your naivety in the very statement that you attempt to disown it. Do you not understand the concept of promotion?

Are you willing to accept the possibility of AROP being released for a fan-base-building goal? I assume you are, because you didn't touch on that part of my post in your reply.

[LKap13]

I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.

This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".

If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?