Can dT like Rite of Passage?

[LKap13]

A lot of what has been said targets the general philosophical problem of "is there such a thing as a factually good song vs. a factually bad song?" . I suppose the answer is no; everyone is of course entitled to his opinion. However, as members of the dT forum, our tastes most likely are similar in certain ways. For example, a song by Britney Spears or Creed can be factually "lackluster" on this forum. Though, I'm sure the members of the Spears and Creed forums would take issue with our saying that.
It's very hard for me to believe that a dT fan can honestly say that the quality of AROP is anywhere close to that of 99% of the band's other stuff. If you happen to like AROP, then that's your right, and so I guess your response to this thread should be "AROP is a perfectly good song, so DT would not see it as lackluster etc." But my guess would be that most of the people on here don't share the view.
So what makes the song "lackluster"? Well it's very hard to put a feeling into words, but somehow (and it's interesting) many people of this subgroup (dT fans) get a similar feeling. As was already said, the song's structure is predictable and generic. There is also no replay value in the track: I can listen to "Voices" ten times in a row and continue discovering new intricacies; if I were to listen to AROP twice in a row I would have to stop after the second go. There is nothing interesting about the chord progressions or notes being played. If instead of the first chorus, the band had decided to continue the song in a different direction, it probably would be a decent song, but instead, to the pitiful, cheesy sounding chorus. But the worst part of the song comes at 7:07 when the band's most awkward and rough transition can be heard (transition from instrumental section to the chorus). Basically everything a (usual!) dT fan looks for in a song is missing. I will say that the instrumental section is good, and  there are some cool drum parts there. JP's solo is decent and JR's electronic sounds are very cool. Overall, it ranks in the bottom 1% of the band's catalog.

[KevShmev]

  Overall, it ranks in the bottom 1% of the band's catalog.

So, you think it is their worst song (since they don't have 100 songs yet, saying it is in the bottom 1% would mean this)?  Like I said before, I don't think it is anything special, but I could name at least 20 DT songs that it is better than.

[perfectchaos180]

yeah I don't like AROP either, its one of their worst, hope the next album is a lot better!

[KevShmev]

this board never thinks DT can do any wrong...

I sure hope this is sarcasm, because, if it isn't, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[LKap13]

  Overall, it ranks in the bottom 1% of the band's catalog.

So, you think it is their worst song (since they don't have 100 songs yet, saying it is in the bottom 1% would mean this)?  Like I said before, I don't think it is anything special, but I could name at least 20 DT songs that it is better than.

Good point.
The only song I can think of that might be worse is Constant Motion. But no, Constant Motion has a pretty sweet instrumental intro. Yea, I'd say it's their worst (maybe 2nd worst after CM, I can't decide).

[ariich]

LKap, a few things:

A lot of what has been said targets the general philosophical problem of "is there such a thing as a factually good song vs. a factually bad song?" . I suppose the answer is no; everyone is of course entitled to his opinion.

Good, here we are in agreement, as are the majority of people on this board (based on lengthy discussions we've had here in the past). Opinions on quality are subjective.

However, as members of the dT forum, our tastes most likely are similar in certain ways. For example, a song by Britney Spears or Creed can be factually "lackluster" on this forum.

Um, no. The only fact is that those things are likely to be less popular here (although plenty of people here have expressed their like of one or the other). "Lackluster" is simply an opinion, in all cases.

It's very hard for me to believe that a dT fan can honestly say that the quality of AROP is anywhere close to that of 99% of the band's other stuff.

It's hard for you to believe? Why do you assume that all DT fans have the same 1) tastes, 2) approach to music, and 3) mentality? The people on this forum, and in the fanbase generally, have a very diverse range of tastes, so with every DT song you would expect a lot of people to like it, no matter how "lackluster" you yourself might find it.

If you happen to like AROP, then that's your right, and so I guess your response to this thread should be "AROP is a perfectly good song, so DT would not see it as lackluster etc." But my guess would be that most of the people on here don't share the view.

I don't think it's fair to patronise people who like the song, just because you've decided it's not very good. I would imagine that most people here at least like the song, with a handful who love it.

As for the rest of your post, the reasons for you disliking the song are completely fair enough, and of course some people will share those opinions. But stop trying to generalise the DT fanbase, because it isn't as narrow in scope as you seem to think.

[OperantChamber]

I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
And what's with the lower case d and capitalized t?

[Seventh Son]

I don't really like AROP that much but eh, DT likes so whatever.

[The Letter M]

I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
And what's with the lower case d and capitalized t?

Obviously the band's name is meant to be "dream THEATER". Yes, you have to yell "THEATER" while saying "dream" as a lower volume... Will Ferrell style.

-Marc.

[glaurung]

I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you don't like something how can it be anything but bad? It's entirely your opinion.

[Rafael Guerra]

Man, I love this forum...

I personally think AROP is a good song. I think the chorus is very melodic and catchy, much more than Constant Motion or Panic Attack IMO. Also, everytime I hear the song, i DO find interesting new things. It took a while to pick up everything the random conspiracy voices said for example . But also, in general, I just find it really good to listen, also the live version of the song was one of the highlights of the show in Caracas (and they played Beyond This Life, In The Name Of God and some other gems!).

To answer the question: I do think Dream Theater likes A Rite Of Passage.

[ariich]

I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you don't like something how can it be anything but bad? It's entirely your opinion.

It makes perfect sense. "I don't like it" is completely different to "it is bad". Obviously on a discussion forum, for the most part we take the latter to mean the former, but when someone starts wondering whether the band "recognise" an opinion as though it is fact, that's when people get annoyed.

[LKap13]

To me, AROP is not only not as good as songs like "Learning to Live" and "Scarred", it's in a completely different league.
The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit. Apparently many of you disagree with that notion, which is cool; that's why I posed the question.

My assumption in making the post was not that AROP is a factually bad song. Rather, the assumption was that it was the general consensus among DT fans that the song is bad.
Since my thread was attacked for assuming the factual basis of song quality, I would like to pose this scenario: If DT came out with a backstreet boys track on their next album, wouldn't my post be appropriate? I don't think anyone would dispute my assertion that DT have either lost their minds or had some ulterior motive and actually dislike the song. This indicates that it's not the logic of the argument that is at fault, but rather a difference in opinion about AROP. If there is a difference in opinion, then (as I mentioned previously), the correct answer is "yes they like AROP". But never, "HOW can they dislike AROP if the song isn't factually bad".

[ariich]

If they released a Backstreet Boys style song, then one would assume that they liked it enough to release it. But even then it's not the same, because the style would be completely different, so you would at least have some justification for posing the question. Whereas a lot of DT's music is and has always been melodic metal, and AROP is melodic metal.

[Perpetual Change]

If anything, John has it on in his car and thinks about how bad ass he sounds soloing.

I think you're wrong about the assumption. Most fans seem to like it, I'd say a great deal more than most other DT singles. And it gets a GREAT reception live from the fans.

[OperantChamber]

I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you don't like something how can it be anything but bad? It's entirely your opinion.

It makes perfect sense. "I don't like it" is completely different to "it is bad". Obviously on a discussion forum, for the most part we take the latter to mean the former, but when someone starts wondering whether the band "recognise" an opinion as though it is fact, that's when people get annoyed.

Exactly. I'm no fan of Sun Ra or Avant-Garde Jazz, but I can appreciate the artistry and understand why it's good without liking it at all.

[Zook]

The song's just kinda boring to me. Nothing interesting going on at all except the solo section. Maybe if it had a different chorus...

[wolfking]

To me, AROP is not only not as good as songs like "Learning to Live" and "Scarred", it's in a completely different league.
The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit. Apparently many of you disagree with that notion, which is cool; that's why I posed the question.

My assumption in making the post was not that AROP is a factually bad song. Rather, the assumption was that it was the general consensus among DT fans that the song is bad.
Since my thread was attacked for assuming the factual basis of song quality, I would like to pose this scenario: If DT came out with a backstreet boys track on their next album, wouldn't my post be appropriate? I don't think anyone would dispute my assertion that DT have either lost their minds or had some ulterior motive and actually dislike the song. This indicates that it's not the logic of the argument that is at fault, but rather a difference in opinion about AROP. If there is a difference in opinion, then (as I mentioned previously), the correct answer is "yes they like AROP". But never, "HOW can they dislike AROP if the song isn't factually bad".

How could a song be factually bad in the first place.  The creator created it and released it, somewhat happy with their product, it's up to the people whether they like it or they don't, it all comes down to opinion.

We understand that you dislike the song, but a lot of us like AROP quite a lot.

[Perpetual Change]

You know, I've heard of Dream Theater. I've heard of Dream Theatre. I've also even heard of Dream Thaeter and Dream Thaetre. And I've seen them all initialized as "DT." But never in my life have I heard of this band called "dT."

[LKap13]

You know, I've heard of Dream Theater. I've heard of Dream Theatre. I've also even heard of Dream Thaeter and Dream Thaetre. And I've seen them all initialized as "DT." But never in my life have I heard of this band called "dT."

It's just something I've been doing these past years.

[Zook]

But... Why?

[LKap13]

When discussing Dream Theater and Symphony X I would always abbreviate as sX and dT . I guess I've always thought it looks cool to have the first letter lower case, second letter capitalized. There's no scientific reason here...

[Progmetty]

I see no decline.
And I love AROP btw and BC&SL in general.

[orcus116]

When discussing Dream Theater and Symphony X I would always abbreviate as sX and dT . I guess I've always thought it looks cool to have the first letter lower case, second letter capitalized. There's no scientific reason here...

Looks very Java-like.

[Adami]

Oh my god who cares.

[SystematicThought]

this board never thinks DT can do any wrong...

I sure hope this is sarcasm, because, if it isn't, you have no idea what you are talking about.

The only reason I ever get negative here is because it's the only place I can bring up some of my criticisms of DT. MP's forum, you can't do that

[orcus116]

You can't even really do that here or else you get banned for a week.

[Adami]

You can't even really do that here or else you get banned for a week.

What? Unless you're calling DT a bunch of faggots or something, you can criticize them here all you want. As long as it's civil.

[orcus116]

DT are not British meatballs.

[AcidLameLTE]

 

[Adami]

DT are not British meatballs.

Watch your language.

[ariich]

DT are not British meatballs.

You said "balls", bant.

EDIT: But yeah Adami is right, people can be as negative as they want as long as they don't bash needlessly. Which is fine in itself, except that there seems to be a bit of a culture where people who try to defend something that is being attacked get put down for being "fanboys" or suchlike.

[tri.ad]

You can't even really do that here or else you get banned for a week.

I think you're seeing the mistake in the wrong place.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think AROP is bad.  To me, it's worse than bad - it's a little boring.  But it is still much better than CM.

I still almost never listen to it, though.

[Seventh Son]

When discussing Dream Theater and Symphony X I would always abbreviate as sX and dT . I guess I've always thought it looks cool to have the first letter lower case, second letter capitalized. There's no scientific reason here...

Looks very Java-like.

It looks unnecessary to me.

Ontopic: Never cared for AROP. I prefer Wither, to be honest. Its shorter, but compared to AROP that's probably a good thing (Plus I'd argue that some of DT's best songs are their shorter songs).