Author Topic: Can dT like Rite of Passage?  (Read 20746 times)

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Offline Global Laziness

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2010, 11:50:20 PM »
I think I agree with everything you've said here, 2Timer. I fully understand the band's desire to break into the mainstream to acquire more fans (and make more money). In fact, last night I was trying to find the results of the band's quest to do so by seeing if BC&SL had more album sales than previous records. I wasn't able to find definite numbers, but I think the album was higher on the Billboard 100 charts than Systematic Chaos, which was previously the highest ranked album. (Does anyone have any more definite data?)
If this is the case, that DT is in fact growing in popularity, then I would expect the band to be a little more enthusiastic about going into the studio. Anways, I'm fine with one crappy mainstream song per album for the sake of expanding the fanbase. I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily  :P

To clarify, the reason that SC and BC&SL charted as high as they did was because they were both released through Roadrunner Records, which has done a fantastic job in promoting Dream Theater since signing them.
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Offline setrataeso

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2010, 11:55:41 PM »
Yes, I understand the premise of a single, which I believe is the term you are looking for. Nevertheless, I don't see why it matters if it's a 2-minute song or a 20-minute epic, Dream Theater would not put out a song that they were not happy with at the time. Do I know this for a fact? No. But, do I believe anything otherwise? No.
I have faith in Dream Theater's musical integrity that they would put out music that they are happy with.
A single used for attracting new fans =/= bad song, despite what you seem to be driving at.




I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.

This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".

If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?

So, you basically just ignored eveything I said, didn't you. OF COURSE I DON'T AGREE!! I've been rebutting your logic-less points several times here, trying to get into your head that lots of people will not and do not agree with your assessment.
Your statement was "I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree." I am telling you right now that I am educated in music and I do not agree. Several people have already stated they do not agree with you, and they are educated in music as well.
Do you get it yet?

Seriously, I sincerely regret getting involved here. This is so frustrating to argue my points with someone who believes what they want to believe and expects anyone who doesn't do the same to be insane.
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Offline LKap13

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #107 on: August 02, 2010, 12:23:31 AM »
Yes, I understand the premise of a single, which I believe is the term you are looking for. Nevertheless, I don't see why it matters if it's a 2-minute song or a 20-minute epic...

Huh? What does the song's length have to do with anything?

Dream Theater would not put out a song that they were not happy with at the time. Do I know this for a fact? No. But, do I believe anything otherwise? No.

Thank you for answering my initial question.


A single used for attracting new fans =/= bad song, despite what you seem to be driving at.


It's true, a single used for attracting new fans doesn't necessarily = a bad song. At the same time, an appeal to the masses will inevitably constitute a dumbing down of the music. This is because the masses are generally not interested in intricate, technical, complex, intelligent, cerebral, etc. music (if you want to dispute this point, just turn on your radio).

So, you basically just ignored eveything I said, didn't you. OF COURSE I DON'T AGREE!! I've been rebutting your logic-less points several times here, trying to get into your head that lots of people will not and do not agree with your assessment.
Your statement was "I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree." I am telling you right now that I am educated in music and I do not agree. Several people have already stated they do not agree with you, and they are educated in music as well.
Do you get it yet?
I don't think you ever explicitly said that AROP is comparable to 1992,1994 stuff. It sounded like you were mainly attacking my logic. But anyway, now you've made it clear that you think AROP is no worse than I&W and Awake. You and all the other people on here are perfectly entitled to this opinion. I think people who think Creed is no worse than I&W and Awake are entitled to that opinion as well; I simply can't take those people seriously when discussing music...

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #108 on: August 02, 2010, 04:24:08 AM »


I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.

This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".

If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?

It makes perfect sense. Now, will you stop playing the part of the contrarian and please cut it out for fuck's sake?

Offline ariich

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #109 on: August 02, 2010, 04:59:44 AM »
LKap, you really shouldn't call people naive when they point out the flaws in your logic.

Just because a band or artist might tailor a song in order to increase the chances of drawing a crowd (which I can assure you the vast majority of musicians do, otherwise how would they make a living?), it doesn't follow that they are doing so at the expense of artistic credibility. I like lots of intricate, intelligent music, and I also like lots of fun, catchy music with great melodies. Many many people are like that, including (as far as I can tell from interviews etc) all the members of DT. Of course they won't think that AROP is the greatest, most artistic song ever, but that wasn't the point of it. That doesn't mean they don't think it's great for what it is.

And your argument could be extended to something on every single one of their albums. Another Day? The Silent Man? About half of FII?

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Offline robwebster

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #110 on: August 02, 2010, 06:40:42 AM »
I'm still having a little trouble with this, so right. LKap. Sincere question for you, and it's only a very teeny bit loaded. Barely an ulterior motive at all.

What about A Rite of Passage makes it so poignantly unlikeable that it was worth making a thread for?

Genuine question. I myself really dig it. It's the best song on BCSL to play loudly and just let rip. But aside from personal views, what makes it so distinctly unlikeable that the band themselves would resent it?

I mean, we've seen what happens when they dislike a song. They refuse to play it. You Not Me got about three token outings and then they ditched it, and that was explicitly designed to expand the fanbase. Meanwhile, the MP tourography isn't allowing searches right now so I can't grab the figures, and setra's list doesn't tabulate them separately, but Hell's Kitchen has barely been touched except in the context of Burning My Soul. Dunno how versed you are on the history of it, but HK was written as the instrumental section to Burning My Soul, until the label made 'em separate it on the album. (Sorry if you already know all this, no idea how long you've been a fan or how deep you've gone.) The end result, a song that they barely played, until a few years later when it was put back into its original context.

And, aside from that, A Rite of Passage isn't that different from the rest of their modern day output. Why would they specifically loathe that song, when it would've fitted onto Systematic Chaos with nary a problem, an album which they were really hyped about and very much enjoyed playing - with Constant Motion, AROP's closest neighbour in terms of tone and structure still being played regularly on the BCSL tour. They're not playing it to win over fans, if someone's come to the show it's not just gonna be because they've just heard A Rite of Passage (somewhere?) and felt like pissing £25 away. It's gonna because they like more than one song. So they'd easily be able to get away with not playing it. Easily. In fact, if it went so far against the grain of their current material, they'd probably avoid it, You Not Me style. So again, nothing inherently out of place or dislikeable.

Not to mention, it's their job, and as with anyone doing a job, they're gonna want to make it as enjoyable as possible while still getting it done. Imagine you had a job summarising movies, and then someone went "Right, we have got every movie in the world, you have to summarise ten of 'em." Where are you gonna go first? And, more crucially, where are you gonna go most often? Twilight or Ghostbusters? Gonna head straight into the Uwe Boll back catalogue or dig into The Good, The Bad and The Ugly? ...Chances are, the ones you play are gonna be the ones you like the most. And DT aren't honour bound to play any song in particular.

So I'm very sorry, but I have no idea why they would dislike A Rite of Passage, and I can't really respond any more thoroughly until I know why you think they would. I honestly think it's more likely that your tastes have just detached from the band's somewhat. They've been throwing shit at your wall, slightly less of it's sticking than it used to. Which is a shame and I'm sorry you don't like it as much as other people do (myself included! Love a bit of AROP), but I don't really get how you've made this logical leap from "It's a song I don't like" to "How can they possibly like this dross?!"
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 06:46:36 AM by robwebster »

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #111 on: August 02, 2010, 08:59:28 AM »
LKap13, the problem is that your initial post (and subsequent posts) assumes two things:  (1) it assumes DT probably think AROP is substandard; (2) it assumes anyone who disagrees with you is unreasonable.  Both make you come across as arrogant and condescending, which will get you into trouble here, get your threads locked, and get you banned.  You don't have to like anything DT does, and you don't have to like anyone here.  But when your posts come across as this thread does, that's a problem, as Nick and ariich have already attempted to point out to you.
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Offline setrataeso

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #112 on: August 02, 2010, 09:26:05 AM »
Nice of people to show up so I don't have to respond to anything.
One thing I would like to make clear:

Yes, I understand the premise of a single, which I believe is the term you are looking for. Nevertheless, I don't see why it matters if it's a 2-minute song or a 20-minute epic...

Huh? What does the song's length have to do with anything?

It doesn't. It was my way of saying it doesn't matter if the song is an intricate epic or a minimalistic single, DT would not put out music that they were unhappy with.

Anyway, I am fucking out of here!
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #113 on: August 02, 2010, 09:28:12 AM »
LKap13, ultimately, it sounds like your argument is, "I don't like the song, so therefore the band doesn't like it either, and they only wrote it to appeal to the prog metal masses."

Offline LKap13

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2010, 09:38:49 AM »


I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.

This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".

If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?

It makes perfect sense. Now, will you stop playing the part of the contrarian and please cut it out for fuck's sake?

I wasn't playing any part. I sincerely wasn't sure if he agreed or not.

Offline moffatt

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #115 on: August 02, 2010, 09:46:38 AM »
This thread makes me  :facepalm:

Offline LKap13

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #116 on: August 02, 2010, 10:02:05 AM »
LKap, you really shouldn't call people naive when they point out the flaws in your logic.


I didn't call him naive because he pointed out a flaw in my logic. I called him naive because it didn't seem like he had considered the possibility of: 1) DT releasing a song for the sole purpose of expanding their fan base and 2) DT saying they like a song without actually liking it (for the most basic purpose of promotion).


Just because a band or artist might tailor a song in order to increase the chances of drawing a crowd (which I can assure you the vast majority of musicians do, otherwise how would they make a living?), it doesn't follow that they are doing so at the expense of artistic credibility. I like lots of intricate, intelligent music, and I also like lots of fun, catchy music with great melodies. Many many people are like that, including (as far as I can tell from interviews etc) all the members of DT. Of course they won't think that AROP is the greatest, most artistic song ever, but that wasn't the point of it. That doesn't mean they don't think it's great for what it is.

And your argument could be extended to something on every single one of their albums. Another Day? The Silent Man? About half of FII?

As I've previously said, I have absolutely no problem with DT releasing  a song per album for the sake of appealing to the masses. Your view is that the band thinks these mainstream songs are great for what they are. This isn't an angle I had really considered prior to making the thread, so I appreciate your input. This explanation is certainly plausible.

Can my thread be extended to something on every other album of theirs? YES! In fact, the thread can be extended to every song in the DT catalogue. The only difference is that, if I was to ask if DT truly loved "Learning to Live", the answer would be : "Yes they love it. They play it as encores. It's a fan favorite, etc." There would have been no uproar about my thread (the only uproar would have been about how my taste in music was off). On the other hand, since the song I mentioned was not a time-tested classic, there was an uproar. This is a paradox. Anyway... I have to finish this post later.
 


Offline LKap13

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #117 on: August 02, 2010, 11:28:24 AM »
I'm still having a little trouble with this, so right. LKap. Sincere question for you, and it's only a very teeny bit loaded. Barely an ulterior motive at all.

What about A Rite of Passage makes it so poignantly unlikeable that it was worth making a thread for?

Genuine question. I myself really dig it. It's the best song on BCSL to play loudly and just let rip. But aside from personal views, what makes it so distinctly unlikeable that the band themselves would resent it?

I mean, we've seen what happens when they dislike a song. They refuse to play it. You Not Me got about three token outings and then they ditched it, and that was explicitly designed to expand the fanbase. Meanwhile, the MP tourography isn't allowing searches right now so I can't grab the figures, and setra's list doesn't tabulate them separately, but Hell's Kitchen has barely been touched except in the context of Burning My Soul. Dunno how versed you are on the history of it, but HK was written as the instrumental section to Burning My Soul, until the label made 'em separate it on the album. (Sorry if you already know all this, no idea how long you've been a fan or how deep you've gone.) The end result, a song that they barely played, until a few years later when it was put back into its original context.

And, aside from that, A Rite of Passage isn't that different from the rest of their modern day output. Why would they specifically loathe that song, when it would've fitted onto Systematic Chaos with nary a problem, an album which they were really hyped about and very much enjoyed playing - with Constant Motion, AROP's closest neighbour in terms of tone and structure still being played regularly on the BCSL tour. They're not playing it to win over fans, if someone's come to the show it's not just gonna be because they've just heard A Rite of Passage (somewhere?) and felt like pissing £25 away. It's gonna because they like more than one song. So they'd easily be able to get away with not playing it. Easily. In fact, if it went so far against the grain of their current material, they'd probably avoid it, You Not Me style. So again, nothing inherently out of place or dislikeable.

Not to mention, it's their job, and as with anyone doing a job, they're gonna want to make it as enjoyable as possible while still getting it done. Imagine you had a job summarising movies, and then someone went "Right, we have got every movie in the world, you have to summarise ten of 'em." Where are you gonna go first? And, more crucially, where are you gonna go most often? Twilight or Ghostbusters? Gonna head straight into the Uwe Boll back catalogue or dig into The Good, The Bad and The Ugly? ...Chances are, the ones you play are gonna be the ones you like the most. And DT aren't honour bound to play any song in particular.

Thank you for this post, it was very informative and on topic. I didn't know that HK was intended to be a part of Burning My Soul.



So I'm very sorry, but I have no idea why they would dislike A Rite of Passage, and I can't really respond any more thoroughly until I know why you think they would. I honestly think it's more likely that your tastes have just detached from the band's somewhat. They've been throwing shit at your wall, slightly less of it's sticking than it used to. Which is a shame and I'm sorry you don't like it as much as other people do (myself included! Love a bit of AROP), but I don't really get how you've made this logical leap from "It's a song I don't like" to "How can they possibly like this dross?!"

I've already described my gripes with the song. Unfortunately talking logically about songs doesn't really convey the message. I can't describe why I think AROP is poor, other than it's the feeling I get when listening to the song. Maybe it's "...Turn the key...."

Offline ariich

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #118 on: August 02, 2010, 11:48:26 AM »
Yeah I hate songs that reference keys being turned. :P

But you're right, it is largely a feeling, either you like a song or you don't. Pretty much everyone who gives reasons to justify why they dislike a song will like other songs that have those same characteristics. Ultimately the characteristics are only partially relevant, but the most important thing is the subjective qualities that you experience. Describing a song as "good" or "bad" only really makes sense in the context of one's own opinion.

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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #119 on: August 02, 2010, 02:19:20 PM »
I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed.  For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures -- but that's his opinion now.  Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975.  So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it?  Sure, it's possible.  But there's no way to know that yet.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2010, 02:47:29 PM »
I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed.  For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures[/i] -- but that's his opinion now.  Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975.  So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it?  Sure, it's possible.  But there's no way to know that yet.

Whhaaaaaatttt??????????????????

Oh, the poor misguided man . . .  :facepalm:

Offline LKap13

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2010, 03:55:08 PM »
I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed.  For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures[/i] -- but that's his opinion now.  Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975.  So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it?  Sure, it's possible.  But there's no way to know that yet.

Whhaaaaaatttt??????????????????

Oh, the poor misguided man . . .  :facepalm:

Why such a reaction? Everything he said made perfect sense.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2010, 04:20:40 PM »
First off, Moving Pictures isn't that good. Permanent Waves is way better.

I DO think that Rush's longer, more "epic" stuff is really overrated, though.

Offline Tuneman

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2010, 04:54:48 PM »
dont assume that how you feel about a song is how they feel about a song.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2010, 07:45:31 PM »
I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed.  For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures[/i] -- but that's his opinion now.  Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975.  So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it?  Sure, it's possible.  But there's no way to know that yet.
Whhaaaaaatttt??????????????????
Oh, the poor misguided man . . .  :facepalm:
I guess I should have known to post the source of Neil's quote: "Oh, those were the growing years [in reference to records like FBN and CoS], and I often equate that to children's drawings on the refrigerator that hang around too long, you know?  I really wish they would just go away.  I think we really started ... wow, given my druthers, I would make our first album Moving Pictures.  I can't think of a single reason not to do that."  (Contents Under Pressure, 2004, p. 35-36)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 10:57:23 PM by contest_sanity »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2010, 10:34:40 PM »
Musicians are funny sometimes.  Peart thinking Rush should have started with MP is like Roger Waters or Nick Mason (cannot remember which one it was) once saying that Pink Floyd should have stopped after Dark Side of the Moon since they were unlikely to ever top it.

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2010, 10:37:28 PM »
As far as I remember Peart didn't say they should have started at MP. But that MP was when he felt rush were in the most true and genuine form. That it was the first album that really expressed who they were as a band. I am also pretty sure Peart is smart to realize that without the ealrier albums, they wouldn't have made MP. Thus, not start with it, but that it was the pinnacle of who they are.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2010, 10:56:34 PM »
As far as I remember Peart didn't say they should have started at MP. But that MP was when he felt rush were in the most true and genuine form. That it was the first album that really expressed who they were as a band. I am also pretty sure Peart is smart to realize that without the ealrier albums, they wouldn't have made MP. Thus, not start with it, but that it was the pinnacle of who they are.
That may well have been more what he meant, but that's not really what he said, if you'll look at the quote in post 124.

Offline Jarlaxle

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2010, 11:31:16 PM »
Can dT like Rite of Passage?

why yes, they can!  :facepalm:

Offline tri.ad

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #129 on: August 03, 2010, 12:12:07 AM »
Short, but to the point.
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Offline Jarlaxle

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #130 on: August 03, 2010, 12:13:47 AM »
Short, but to the point.

that's what she said.... :hat

Offline tri.ad

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Re: Can dT like Rite of Passage?
« Reply #131 on: August 03, 2010, 12:44:17 AM »
 :\
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