Meditation

[AndyDT]

Does anybody here meditate? I've found it takes a lot of effort and am still trying to get the benefits  e.g.

Raja Yoga aims at controlling all thought-waves or mental modifications. While a Hatha Yogi starts his Sadhana, or spiritual practice, with Asanas (postures) and Pranayama, a Raja Yogi starts his Sadhana with the mind, although a certain minimum of asanas and pranayamas are usually included as a preparation for the meditation and concentration. In Samadhi Pada I,27 says Pantanjali that the word of Ishvara is OM, the Pranava. Through the sounding of the Word and through reflection upon its meaning, the Way is found.

In the Jangama dhyana technique of Raja Yoga, the yogi concentrates the mind and sight between the eyebrows. According to Patanjali, this is one method of achieving the initial concentration (dharana: Yoga Sutras, III: 1) necessary for the mind to go introverted in meditation (dhyana: Yoga Sutras, III: 2). In deeper practice of the Jangama dhyana technique, the mind concentrated between the eyebrows begins to automatically lose all location and focus on the watching itself. Eventually, the meditator experiences only the consciousness of existence and achieves Self Realization. In his classic Raja Yoga, Swami Vivekananda describes the process in the following way:

    When the mind has been trained to remain fixed on a certain internal or external location, there comes to it the power of flowing in an unbroken current, as it were, towards that point. This state is called dhyana. When one has so intensified the power of dhyana as to be able to reject the external part of perception and remain meditating only on the internal part, the meaning, that state is called Samadhi.[3]

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Yoga ]

How long does it take to achieve this? I've read twenty minutes a day is good to start off with.

I'd prefer this to Tai chi, chi kung etc which seem like a lot of effort for something you could do better with explosive exercise like weights and presumably hard martial arts.

[eric42434224]

P/R

[In The Name Of Rudess]

I've been meditating ever since I became a buddhist, so that would be about 12 years.

There are 2 forms of meditation, samatha and vipassana. Samatha is meant to calm the mind down and stop irrelevant thought, vipassana is meant to give you insight, to see things without prejudice. To reach vipassana, you must first practice samatha. The mind needs to be still before you can start thinking again. The Jangama dhyana is a samatha, but it's quite difficult since the area between your eyebrows is quite small and not particularly sensitive. It would be a better idea to start with Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing). Being aware of your breathing is a lot easier and less frustrating to start with. This does not mean it's less good. I as a reasonably advanced meditator still use it at least once a week.

This site contains very good information regarding Anapanasati and various other types of meditation:
https://www.wildmind.org/mindfulness

It will guide you from the beginning stages to the more advanced stages (stage 0 to stage 4). To start off you should meditate about 5-10 minutes in the morning and 5-10 in the evening, but this is also described on the website.

There is a lot more interesting information on the website, and I would recommend you to look at the information about meditation posture before you start. Posture is very important in meditation:

https://www.wildmind.org/posture

The benefits can be achieved after just a few weeks. The longer you meditate, the more skilled you will get. Meditation is like an endurance sport for the mind, with regular practice your mind will be in better shape. It may take effort in the beginning, but stick to it. It'll really improve every aspect of your life.

I'd prefer this to Tai chi, chi kung etc which seem like a lot of effort for something you could do better with explosive exercise like weights and presumably hard martial arts.

Tai chi is focused on the mental aspect, not the physical aspect of sports. So you could never do the same thing with weights. Furthermore, Tai chi can contain lots of explosive movement, it's just that the solo form which contains primarily slow movement is the most well-known.

P/R

Meditation is originally a religious practice.

[eric42434224]

Meditation is originally a religious practice.

Yet the only mention of religion is my post asking how it relates to P/R and your response to me.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Meditation is originally a religious practice.

Yet the only mention of religion is my post asking how it relates to P/R and your response to me.

  I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You were asking why this was posted in politics/religion right?

[eric42434224]

Meditation is originally a religious practice.

Yet the only mention of religion is my post asking how it relates to P/R and your response to me.

  I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You were asking why this was posted in politics/religion right?

Just wondering why this is a PR thread when the only mention of religion is me asking why this is a PR thread.
Pretty self explanatory.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Meditation is originally a religious practice.

Yet the only mention of religion is my post asking how it relates to P/R and your response to me.

  I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You were asking why this was posted in politics/religion right?

Just wondering why this is a PR thread when the only mention of religion is me asking why this is a PR thread.
Pretty self explanatory.

Because meditation is originally a religious practice. The subject of the thread, meditation, has to do with religion, so it was posted in politics/religion.

[AndyDT]

I've been meditating ever since I became a buddhist, so that would be about 12 years.

How different is this to Hindu yoga practises?

There are 2 forms of meditation, samatha and vipassana. Samatha is meant to calm the mind down and stop irrelevant thought, vipassana is meant to give you insight, to see things without prejudice. To reach vipassana, you must first practice samatha. The mind needs to be still before you can start thinking again. The Jangama dhyana is a samatha, but it's quite difficult since the area between your eyebrows is quite small and not particularly sensitive. It would be a better idea to start with Anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing). Being aware of your breathing is a lot easier and less frustrating to start with. This does not mean it's less good. I as a reasonably advanced meditator still use it at least once a week.

I've been trying the breathing approach which is what Geoff Thompson and somebody I spoke to personally recommended but no great effect yet.

This site contains very good information regarding Anapanasati and various other types of meditation:
https://www.wildmind.org/mindfulness

It will guide you from the beginning stages to the more advanced stages (stage 0 to stage 4). To start off you should meditate about 5-10 minutes in the morning and 5-10 in the evening, but this is also described on the website.

There is a lot more interesting information on the website, and I would recommend you to look at the information about meditation posture before you start. Posture is very important in meditation:

https://www.wildmind.org/posture

Thanks for that, I'll have a look. This seems a great start.

The benefits can be achieved after just a few weeks. The longer you meditate, the more skilled you will get. Meditation is like an endurance sport for the mind, with regular practice your mind will be in better shape. It may take effort in the beginning, but stick to it. It'll really improve every aspect of your life.

I heard this through Geoff Thomspon's whose tried all kinds of things but seems to have settled with martial arts, meditation and prayer.

I'd prefer this to Tai chi, chi kung etc which seem like a lot of effort for something you could do better with explosive exercise like weights and presumably hard martial arts.

Tai chi is focused on the mental aspect, not the physical aspect of sports. So you could never do the same thing with weights. Furthermore, Tai chi can contain lots of explosive movement, it's just that the solo form which contains primarily slow movement is the most well-known.

You can meditate with weights to an extent but I'm not saying its the same thing. What I was trying to talk about was the catharsis effect for want of a better word.

Do you do it and if so would you recommend Tai Chi?

P/R

Meditation is originally a religious practice.

It still is for some who believe they are accessing source/God through the subconscious. I'm still very conscious when I meditate which indicates that I'm not doing it properly yet.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

How different is this to Hindu yoga practises?

Buddhist meditation (Zen meditation) has its roots in yogic rituals. The objectives of meditation are the same in Hindu yoga as they are in Zen meditation. The methods of getting there differ slightly. Both traditions are usually based on focusing on a singe point. In Zen meditation these points can be anything (a flame, an empty white wall, the breath etc.). In Hindu yoga the points used are usually the chakras. Chakras are believed to be the force centers of energy in the body. These points are commonly targeted in acupuncture (Qigong). Chakras are also present in Buddhism, but they're not as important as in Hindu practices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

So in short, the objectives are the same but the methods differ.

I've been trying the breathing approach which is what Geoff Thompson and somebody I spoke to personally recommended but no great effect yet.

You should be careful not to expect too much right away. Meditation takes time. Meditating itself can be fun even without the added benefits.

You can meditate with weights to an extent but I'm not saying its the same thing. What I was trying to talk about was the catharsis effect for want of a better word.

Do you do it and if so would you recommend Tai Chi?

I do it regularly. I would not recommend starting Tai Chi before you can meditate rather well. A large part of Tai Chi is based on the fact of moving in stillness. If you can't grasp the principle of stillness yet, you won't be able to perform Tai Chi like it's meant to be performed. Also, if you want to start Tai Chi a teacher is necessary. Performing all the postures correctly is impossible without a teacher.

It still is for some who believe they are accessing source/God through the subconscious. I'm still very conscious when I meditate which indicates that I'm not doing it properly yet.

I also believe one can access the source of Being through meditation. Being concious is not wrong, it is in fact a first requirement for accessing the source. If this interests you, you should try reading "The Power of Now". The principles of Buddhism relating to the source of being and how to apply these principles in your daily life are explained in this book. I definitely recommend it. You can see a preview of the book on Google books:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=Bto8PqiEnzIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+power+of+now&source=bl&ots=PfDBjUB7KO&sig=XhrZRDxQlsKLpBq1UhZ7c7OTNWc&hl=nl&ei=jZpRTIWsPJGoOK3Y9aUF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

[hefdaddy42]

I have dabbled in meditation as well, although I don't do it regularly.  I should.

[AndyDT]

How different is this to Hindu yoga practises?

Buddhist meditation (Zen meditation) has its roots in yogic rituals. The objectives of meditation are the same in Hindu yoga as they are in Zen meditation. The methods of getting there differ slightly. Both traditions are usually based on focusing on a singe point. In Zen meditation these points can be anything (a flame, an empty white wall, the breath etc.). In Hindu yoga the points used are usually the chakras. Chakras are believed to be the force centers of energy in the body. These points are commonly targeted in acupuncture (Qigong). Chakras are also present in Buddhism, but they're not as important as in Hindu practices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

So in short, the objectives are the same but the methods differ.

Qigong (chikung?) is more than just acupunture isn't it?

I've been trying the breathing approach which is what Geoff Thompson and somebody I spoke to personally recommended but no great effect yet.

You should be careful not to expect too much right away. Meditation takes time. Meditating itself can be fun even without the added benefits.

You can meditate with weights to an extent but I'm not saying its the same thing. What I was trying to talk about was the catharsis effect for want of a better word.

Do you do it and if so would you recommend Tai Chi?

I do it regularly. I would not recommend starting Tai Chi before you can meditate rather well. A large part of Tai Chi is based on the fact of moving in stillness. If you can't grasp the principle of stillness yet, you won't be able to perform Tai Chi like it's meant to be performed. Also, if you want to start Tai Chi a teacher is necessary. Performing all the postures correctly is impossible without a teacher.

So what's the benefit of Tai Chi? I thought it was a kind of combined relaxation and exercise, also visualisation of energy balance. I thought that Tai Chi probably wouldn't work just watching videos but thought that a course would be useful.

It still is for some who believe they are accessing source/God through the subconscious. I'm still very conscious when I meditate which indicates that I'm not doing it properly yet.

I also believe one can access the source of Being through meditation. Being concious is not wrong, it is in fact a first requirement for accessing the source. If this interests you, you should try reading "The Power of Now". The principles of Buddhism relating to the source of being and how to apply these principles in your daily life are explained in this book. I definitely recommend it. You can see a preview of the book on Google books:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=Bto8PqiEnzIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+power+of+now&source=bl&ots=PfDBjUB7KO&sig=XhrZRDxQlsKLpBq1UhZ7c7OTNWc&hl=nl&ei=jZpRTIWsPJGoOK3Y9aUF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanks for that. I have read it and I need to go back to it more often. It was very useful but by being the "watcher" as he calls it doesn't seem to bring the effects some people suggest /within meditation/ e.g. insight, perspective. It does seem to help during ordinary conscious states hwoever and I've found his advice useful in a lot of other ways.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Qigong (chikung?) is more than just acupunture isn't it?

Yes. Qigong is used for manipulating the energy inside living organisms. Qigong is kind of a mixture of several different rituals. There are 3 ways of practicing Qigong: dynamic, static and meditative. Dynamic is by movement, very much like tai chi. Static is by holding a certain posture, very much like yoga. Meditative is when meditation is used to guide the energy through certain meridians (energy paths) between the chakras. I have little experience in Qigong myself though.

So what's the benefit of Tai Chi? I thought it was a kind of combined relaxation and exercise, also visualisation of energy balance. I thought that Tai Chi probably wouldn't work just watching videos but thought that a course would be useful.

The mental benefits are basically the same as meditation, since it's basically moving meditation. On the physical side, Tai Chi burns calories and tones the muscles. It also works as cardio training and improves balance. In addition, it has all the benefits of "normal" meditation, like a lower blood pressure etc. But I wouldn't recommend starting Tai Chi before you know how to meditate.

Thanks for that. I have read it and I need to go back to it more often. It was very useful but by being the "watcher" as he calls it doesn't seem to bring the effects some people suggest /within meditation/ e.g. insight, perspective. It does seem to help during ordinary conscious states hwoever and I've found his advice useful in a lot of other ways.

I found this site the other day:
https://www.masteringthepowerofnow.com/

It's a free course that gives further information on how to use the information in the book.

[Perpetual Change]

Wow. Thanks a lot, In The Name of Rudess, for the info, and thanks Andy for starting the thread. I've been wanting to start meditating more, but just haven't found the time yet.

[AndyDT]

Qigong (chikung?) is more than just acupunture isn't it?

Yes. Qigong is used for manipulating the energy inside living organisms. Qigong is kind of a mixture of several different rituals. There are 3 ways of practicing Qigong: dynamic, static and meditative. Dynamic is by movement, very much like tai chi. Static is by holding a certain posture, very much like yoga. Meditative is when meditation is used to guide the energy through certain meridians (energy paths) between the chakras. I have little experience in Qigong myself though.

So what's the benefit of Tai Chi? I thought it was a kind of combined relaxation and exercise, also visualisation of energy balance. I thought that Tai Chi probably wouldn't work just watching videos but thought that a course would be useful.

The mental benefits are basically the same as meditation, since it's basically moving meditation. On the physical side, Tai Chi burns calories and tones the muscles. It also works as cardio training and improves balance. In addition, it has all the benefits of "normal" meditation, like a lower blood pressure etc. But I wouldn't recommend starting Tai Chi before you know how to meditate.

Thanks for that. I have read it and I need to go back to it more often. It was very useful but by being the "watcher" as he calls it doesn't seem to bring the effects some people suggest /within meditation/ e.g. insight, perspective. It does seem to help during ordinary conscious states hwoever and I've found his advice useful in a lot of other ways.

I found this site the other day:
https://www.masteringthepowerofnow.com/

It's a free course that gives further information on how to use the information in the book.

Thanks I'll take a look.

[ReaperKK]

I've dabbled in Meditation for 2 years but I never started meditating until last year when I had trouble sleeping. I felt that maybe it'll help me sleep instead of the ambian I was prescribed.

Anyway, I feel it's changed my life for the better and while I still consider myself very new to the practice, meditating is something I look forward to every night.

I started a Meditation thread here a while ago but it never took off, I'm glad this one did

[AndyDT]

How do you do it?

[fsh3702]

i remember some line sheldon said: meditation is nothing but hokum.

[ReaperKK]

How do you do it?

Personally I put on some music I have for meditation. It's not really music, it's just ambient noise as I'm still having trouble meditating in silence although I'm working on it.

I have my meditation area near my bed on the floor with some pillows I bought so I can be elevated. I start in the half lotus position as my arms feel too uncomfortable in the full lotus position. I start by counting my breaths, one inhale, two exhale. I do this all the way up to up to 10 without thinking of anything else, if another thought pops up in my head I start the count over when I refocus.

After that I just focus on my inner energy trying not to let one thought in me and get a hold. When I first started this part drove me mad, I just kept thinking and thinking but now it becomes a peaceful quiet. That to me is what really helps, I can sit in a peaceful quiet in my mind with no distraction. If I have something that is bothering me through the day I think about it and ask myself how it's really effecting my life. I focus and try to detach myself from it. I then count down from 10 to zero and go to sleep right after my meditating.

This whole process is very hard to describe but lasts me 20-30 minutes. If you want more info I have plenty of books that explain it better than I do.

[AndyDT]

I've listened to the whole of that "Mastering the power of now" course apart from Byron Katie which seems incomprehensible. Bill Harris' talk was probably the clearest. However, the one sticking point for me is how he emphasises that "life has no purpose". I think this is overdone. Tolle says you can have goals but don't expect to be completely fulfilled from them and don't identify with them as they don't identify you. However, Harris keeps saying there is no point but to me that's wrong: there is a point, you want to enjoy the pleasure of attaining a goal, an effect or a cause (which Tolle himself says to focus on).

I think the course partly undermines Tolle's book personally but introduces people to a range of other techniques. Particularly, Harris' description of "but white must conquor black" being the cause of "egoic" suffering.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

I agree. I expected more from the course. It seems the people in the articles were told to talk about their techniques instead of discussing the book. This could be interesting for people not familiar with the techniques, but the fact remains that the title of the course is misleading.

I came across this: https://www.buddhimudra.com/wisdom/meditation/29-the-art-and-science-of-meditation
The second half explains very clearly the obstacles you can encounter in your meditation practice and it goes into the technique that Tolle calls "watching your thoughts". Quite interesting. You should disregard the part about Siddhies though.

[El JoNNo]

The closest I have come to meditation has been through martial arts ie Goju Ryu Karate, Ju Jutsu, Kung Fu etc.. Specifically the breathing katas such as Sanchin, Tensho and Tiet sing kun. Other than that I do not actively pursue meditation.

[AndyDT]

I agree. I expected more from the course. It seems the people in the articles were told to talk about their techniques instead of discussing the book. This could be interesting for people not familiar with the techniques, but the fact remains that the title of the course is misleading.

I came across this: https://www.buddhimudra.com/wisdom/meditation/29-the-art-and-science-of-meditation
The second half explains very clearly the obstacles you can encounter in your meditation practice and it goes into the technique that Tolle calls "watching your thoughts". Quite interesting. You should disregard the part about Siddhies though.

Thanks. Through witnessing do you mean the sense of not a thought not being your entire mind or the space around it?


I noticed some of the visual experiences. Something strange happened a few weeks ago. I woke up early and sat on the edge of the bed and put my hands over eyes and I could "see" through them to a map by the wall (Which wasn't there in reality although I thought it was). I could see every little detail and could read the text at all the individual points. It was like I was still dreaming but sitting up straight.

Also I had a dream where I wrote an amazing (to me) introduction to a book but couldn't remember (typically) when I Woke up only the experience of it, how it was written - short, punchy, dramatic lines - and the end setting up the premise and urgency for the whole book. I could see every word in the dream.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Thanks. Through witnessing do you mean the sense of not a thought not being your entire mind or the space around it?

You are space, your mind creates thought. You are not your mind. So in order to witness thought you have to stop identifying with thought.  Allow your thoughts to just float around, be the space around your thoughts, observe them objectively. Eventually they'll just float off. Don't use effort to quiet the mind. Trying to quiet the mind by thinking "I have to stop thinking" is the mind fighting itself. This only leads to frustration.

The more experienced you get at meditation and mindfulness, less irrelevant thoughts will come up. Letting thoughts go will become easier. Right now your brain is still conditioned to produce irrelevant thought. By using meditation and mindfulness you are actually changing the structure of your brain for the better. This process is called neuroplasticity. It has been proven in scientific studies that the brains of people who meditate regularly actually work more efficiently:
https://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/meditation-and-neuroplasticity/

I noticed some of the visual experiences. Something strange happened a few weeks ago. I woke up early and sat on the edge of the bed and put my hands over eyes and I could "see" through them to a map by the wall (Which wasn't there in reality although I thought it was). I could see every little detail and could read the text at all the individual points. It was like I was still dreaming but sitting up straight.

Also I had a dream where I wrote an amazing (to me) introduction to a book but couldn't remember (typically) when I Woke up only the experience of it, how it was written - short, punchy, dramatic lines - and the end setting up the premise and urgency for the whole book. I could see every word in the dream.

Those sound like lucid dreams. Meditation and lucid dreaming are intimately linked. Meditation in and of itself requires developing a certain amount of control over your awareness. Lucid dreaming revolves around the fact that you can become aware of the fact you are dreaming. Most people who meditate will start having lucid dreams after some time even if it wasn't their original intention. Dream recall is also improved usually.

[AndyDT]

Thanks. Through witnessing do you mean the sense of not a thought not being your entire mind or the space around it?

You are space, your mind creates thought. You are not your mind. So in order to witness thought you have to stop identifying with thought.  Allow your thoughts to just float around, be the space around your thoughts, observe them objectively. Eventually they'll just float off. Don't use effort to quiet the mind. Trying to quiet the mind by thinking "I have to stop thinking" is the mind fighting itself. This only leads to frustration.

The more experienced you get at meditation and mindfulness, less irrelevant thoughts will come up. Letting thoughts go will become easier. Right now your brain is still conditioned to produce irrelevant thought. By using meditation and mindfulness you are actually changing the structure of your brain for the better. This process is called neuroplasticity. It has been proven in scientific studies that the brains of people who meditate regularly actually work more efficiently:
https://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/meditation-and-neuroplasticity/

I noticed some of the visual experiences. Something strange happened a few weeks ago. I woke up early and sat on the edge of the bed and put my hands over eyes and I could "see" through them to a map by the wall (Which wasn't there in reality although I thought it was). I could see every little detail and could read the text at all the individual points. It was like I was still dreaming but sitting up straight.

Also I had a dream where I wrote an amazing (to me) introduction to a book but couldn't remember (typically) when I Woke up only the experience of it, how it was written - short, punchy, dramatic lines - and the end setting up the premise and urgency for the whole book. I could see every word in the dream.

Those sound like lucid dreams. Meditation and lucid dreaming are intimately linked. Meditation in and of itself requires developing a certain amount of control over your awareness. Lucid dreaming revolves around the fact that you can become aware of the fact you are dreaming. Most people who meditate will start having lucid dreams after some time even if it wasn't their original intention. Dream recall is also improved usually.

Thanks, I'll think some more about this. I've noticed that meditation is becoming more useful in the day. The mind seems to have a really bad habit of trying to problem solve - particularly things some days or more ahead -  and sometimes the answer comes from not thinking about it and waiting for it to appear.