James LaBrie Solo

[Bone_Daddy]

Really dig the chorus but the screaming is just not my cup of tea. Too bad. Was looking for a decent follow up to EoP.

[Quadrochosis]

This song just gets better and better everytime I hear it.

[ariich]

1.  I've never seen any evidence to suggest the contrary, aside from him playing the keyboard during the intro the Octavarium-- which, by the way, seemed to have its keys taped and color coordinated in a way that would be unnecessary for someone with even the most basic musical knowledge.

Surely that should be "basic keyboard knowledge"? Music =/= keyboard. And besides, just because he doesn't play one well enough to record, doesn't mean he doesn't play anything at all.

2.  I don't know. Maybe James LaBrie is one of those geniuses who can write music out without being able to play an instrument.  I think it's much more likely that he's just very good at "thinking" vocal parts in his head when he hears the material he's supposed to be singing over.

You don't need to be a genius, you just need to know some music theory, I know plenty of people who know the theory but don't play an instrument very proficiently, particularly with singers. Understanding music makes singing much easier, especially with music as complex as DT's.

[Zydar]

I think I've heard or read somewhere that JLB play the drums as well.

[yeshaberto]

Not nuts about the verses, but James sounds great. Musically, I like it 10 times better than anything off of EOP.

this...and I liked EOP

[Perpetual Change]

1.  I've never seen any evidence to suggest the contrary, aside from him playing the keyboard during the intro the Octavarium-- which, by the way, seemed to have its keys taped and color coordinated in a way that would be unnecessary for someone with even the most basic musical knowledge.

Surely that should be "basic keyboard knowledge"? Music =/= keyboard. And besides, just because he doesn't play one well enough to record, doesn't mean he doesn't play anything at all.

2.  I don't know. Maybe James LaBrie is one of those geniuses who can write music out without being able to play an instrument.  I think it's much more likely that he's just very good at "thinking" vocal parts in his head when he hears the material he's supposed to be singing over.

You don't need to be a genius, you just need to know some music theory, I know plenty of people who know the theory but don't play an instrument very proficiently, particularly with singers. Understanding music makes singing much easier, especially with music as complex as DT's.

Well, now that my inital statement, "I mean, it's pretty damn obvious that James likely doesn't write any of the music, and only writes half the lyrics" has been stretched into an abstract argument regarding how good someone can be at "writing" music without knowledge of an instrument, I'm going to duck out and say "you guys win." 

My only point in all of this is that James is only given partial musical credit on any song he's helped "write" ever, whether with DT or MM or JLB. And he's is only given lyric credit (sometimes partial) on about half of all the tracks on EoP. I'm almost positive that James doesn't write any music aside from his vocal parts, and, if he DOES write music, it's probably nothing more than suggesting his band play a certain way. Like, "hey, guys, what if you play something gloomy and heavy here, with a clean intro?"

It'd be a cool question to ask him in an interview, I guess, but I remember one of the reasons for James being told to "shape up or ship out" according to Portnoy in Lifting Shadows was that during interviews he'd gas about helping the guys write music and stuff in front of interviewers, when most of the time he wasn't even in the studio with them while they were writing.

Sarcasm aside, I don't understand why that's so hard to cope with. It surely doesn't take away from my enjoyment of anything that's been put out under his name.

[ehra]

I think I've heard or read somewhere that JLB play the drums as well.

He did when he was younger. Not sure if he still messes with it at all.

[robwebster]

Well, now that my inital statement, "I mean, it's pretty damn obvious that James likely doesn't write any of the music, and only writes half the lyrics" has been stretched into an abstract argument regarding how good someone can be at "writing" music without knowledge of an instrument, I'm going to duck out and say "you guys win." 

Well sure, if ducking out means "continuing over the next few paragraphs."

It's not obvious. It's a possibility, sure, but it's one that you seem to have decided is a fact. And an obvious fact.

"write"

Patronising to put it in inverted commas, he's a talented musician with a 25 year plus career.

I'm almost positive that James doesn't write any music aside from his vocal parts

You can't know that.

if he DOES write music, it's probably nothing more than suggesting his band play a certain way. Like, "hey, guys, what if you play something gloomy and heavy here, with a clean intro?"

You can't know that. That's conjecture. Your idea. You've read a few credits and noticed that he doesn't write for DT and extrapolated that into "He does not know how to write music and he just suggests genres then takes credit for it and THIS IS THE TRUTH."

Sarcasm aside, I don't understand why that's so hard to cope with.

Because, aside from it being a complete ass pull (and "cope with" again makes it sound like you think you're stating facts), it's really quite rude. Even if you're right, you don't know it, but you're just coming up with made-up statements and going "oh they're obvious, you should learn to cope with the truth". Plus, accusing him of taking credit for music he's not writing is a pretty serious allegation. If he wasn't writing it, they wouldn't be putting it in the press release.

I don't think it's fair to make comments which actually are a little libelous and expect 'em to go unchallenged.



That said, for all we know, you might be right! You might be the prophet Cassandra. But I don't think the substance of what you're saying is necessarily fair.

[hefdaddy42]

Fleeting?

[Martinman300]

Growls in the glass prison:











HUMANITY!!!!

[Tick]

I don't like the song at all.

Me neither.  Obviously, that means we're gay.




So... you busy this weekend?

I'll meet you Sunday morning for brunch with mimosa's at The Blue Moon. I'll be wearing the policeman's hat.

 

[TAC]

..or The Gay Blade!

[Bone_Daddy]

I think I've heard or read somewhere that JLB play the drums as well.

He does. I have seen DT switch it up at concerts where they trade instruments and play a tune.

[Tick]

I think I've heard or read somewhere that JLB play the drums as well.

He does. I have seen DT switch it up at concerts where they trade instruments and play a tune.

Most singers have great timing and rhythm so the drums are a somewhat natural fit. Being a vocalist myself, I can't play guitar, but I can rock out on the drums and have been know to take a song live every once in awhile.

[bodiesinflight]

Not sure whether I like it or not...still

Hope he plays a tiny little UK show though at some point

[hefdaddy42]

I think I've heard or read somewhere that JLB play the drums as well.

He does. I have seen DT switch it up at concerts where they trade instruments and play a tune.

I don't remember them doing it when JLB got on drums.  When Derek was in the band, they would switch to Derek on guitar, MP on bass, JM on keys, and JP on drums.  JLB kept singing.

When did you see JLB playing drums with DT?

[Global Laziness]

Alright, finally got around to listening. It's good, but not much more than that. I can appreciate some growls, although I'm not a huge fan of this guy doing them. The rest is cool, though.

[TL]

You're not talking about Portnoy's vocals in ANTR are you? Those aren't growls at all.

At one point, they released a version of that section where he was doing full on growls that didn't make it into the final song. The consensus seemed to be that people were glad they hadn't gone with that.

[Adami]

You're not talking about Portnoy's vocals in ANTR are you? Those aren't growls at all.

At one point, they released a version of that section where he was doing full on growls that didn't make it into the final song. The consensus seemed to be that people were glad they hadn't gone with that.

They would have sounded a lot better than the yelling crap we got.

[In The Wake Of Poseidon]

You're not talking about Portnoy's vocals in ANTR are you? Those aren't growls at all.

At one point, they released a version of that section where he was doing full on growls that didn't make it into the final song. The consensus seemed to be that people were glad they hadn't gone with that.

They would have sounded a lot better than the yelling crap we got.

No, just no.

[Dcrupi]

I must be on my 10th listen right now, and I still love this song more every time.  Well done, JLB.

[Zook]

Just because they released that section (which I've heard) doesn't mean there's growls in DT's music.

[Dr. DTVT]

I don't remember them doing it when JLB got on drums.  When Derek was in the band, they would switch to Derek on guitar, MP on bass, JM on keys, and JP on drums.  JLB kept singing.

This...Nightmare Cinema is the only concrete evidence that JLB doesn't play another instrument in a servicable fashion.  If he could play drums, I would think that they would have taken that opportunity to do so.  I'm not saying he can't do anything else, but IIRC MP said in the book "Lifting Shadows" that JLB doesn't bring much to the table in terms of performance aside from his voice.  It's been a over a year since I read it, so don't go misusing my statement.

He does what he does so well though, that I don't care if is incapable of wiping his own ass, he's still freaking awesome.

[Cool Chris]

He does what he does so well though, that I don't care if is incapable of wiping his own ass, he's still freaking awesome.

I've always thought this as well. If your only job is to deliver the vocals, then do that to the best of your ability. As The Rock used to say before he became a lame actor: Know your role. If he doesn't want to and/or can't contribute in any other way, doesn't bother me a bit.

On topic, listened to this song again, still don't care much for it. Will definitely want to listen to as much of the album as I legally can before I decide if I want to purchase it.

[Perpetual Change]

That said, for all we know, you might be right! You might be the prophet Cassandra. But I don't think the substance of what you're saying is necessarily fair.

I've never, ever seen ANYTHING-- studio footage, interviews, etc.-- that suggests James somehow has a hand in writing the music aside from his vocal parts for either Dream Theater or his side projects, even when he's credited as such. When you're ready to show me otherwise (instead of just ranting at my posts and calling me "rude," a hypocrite, and a "complete ass") I'll be ready to pick up the discussion again!

Oh, and I meant that I was "ducking out" of the abstract discussion I referenced in the first paragraph of the post you quote. But cute try, you trying to corner me and all like that.  

Seriously, though. I'm not trying to piss you or anyone off with my original comment. I'm more than open to the possibility that James does have a hand in writing music. The problem is, I've just never really seen it happen, or even seen reference to it happening. The only thing I've read about James' claims to music-writing were Portnoy's rebuttals in Lifting Shadows.

[TL]

Just because they released that section (which I've heard) doesn't mean there's growls in DT's music.

Well it's a good thing I never made that claim then.
The point I was making was that growls and harsh vocals weren't something that seemed to appeal to a large number of DT fans, at least not in the context of DT.

[robwebster]

That said, for all we know, you might be right! You might be the prophet Cassandra. But I don't think the substance of what you're saying is necessarily fair.

I've never, ever seen ANYTHING-- studio footage, interviews, etc.-- that suggests James somehow has a hand in writing the music aside from his vocal parts for either Dream Theater or his side projects, even when he's credited as such. When you're ready to show me otherwise (instead of just ranting at my posts and calling me "rude," a hypocrite, and a "complete ass") I'll be ready to pick up the discussion again!

Okay, first off an "ass pull" means it's been pulled out of your ass. Doesn't mean you are one, just that you have one. So do I. An "ass pull" is a statement that has come from nowhere discernable. I have not called you a complete ass.

Second off I have not called you a hypocrite.

Third off this is getting messy and I don't like a messy arguments - heck, don't like arguments full stop - but at the same time I really don't think you realise why people are annoyed at what you're saying, myself included.

Bits are fine! There are bits which I think are perfectly fair.

Seriously, though. I'm not trying to piss you or anyone off with my original comment. I'm more than open to the possibility that James does have a hand in writing music. The problem is, I've just never really seen it happen, or even seen reference to it happening. The only thing I've read about James' claims to music-writing were Portnoy's rebuttals in Lifting Shadows.

Great! That's fine! Brilliant bit of Grade A post, that. That's facts, and a perfectly valid reason to express surprise when he is revealed to have written a bit of music.

But a really sloppy argument is to extrapolate that because you have not seen him write music, that means that he cannot write music. And even sloppier to assume that when he is given a writing credit, it is because he is making it up. I hope you can see how that's really unfair to JLB.

He's credited as writing this album. That's a cert. He has, on paper, written an album with Matt Guillory. Whether you believe that or not is up to you, but it is definitely not fair to say that it's obvious that he doesn't write most of the music. To put "write" in snidey inverted commas. To claim that he probably just tells them roughly how to play. I think that's uncalled-for. 'Specially when it says right up there on the package that he wrote it. Even N*Sync don't go about claiming to write their songs, they'll have endless lists of producers in the booklet. (...I imagine. Based on old pop compilations in my house.) Open the booklet to Elements of Persuasion, and you'll see that JLB's done at least enough musicwriting to be credited.

But looking back, I think I've been taking this a lot more seriously than anybody else. Yourself included.

God I need a break.

[ariich]

Also PC, your main argument seems to be based on what he does in DT. And I agree, he seems to have little musical input into DT's music, but isn't that the point of doing solo albums, so that he can write some music and have creative control.

Also, this whole discussion spawned from a comment that JLB probably doesn't like growls but as he isn't writing the music he is just accepting whatever. Even if (and it's a big if) he does very little of the writing, he will still have creative control. The album is in his name, and he wouldn't release it if he wasn't happy with it.

[Gadough]

Upon my first listen to this song, I was indifferent. However, I find that I like it more and more with every listen, like Quad said. It's a serious grower and I'm beginning to love it. James sounds great, and I actually really like the screamed vocals now that I've listened to it several times.

[Perpetual Change]

I'd better point out now, then, that nothing I've said is meant as a slight to James. He's a great singer, and his solos albums do a great job of showcasing his voice, regardless of whether he actually writes most of the material there or not (many singers don't and I don't expect it.)

I'd like to think that James is capable of writing a complete song, completing both lyrics and music, roughly demoing it, and showing it to the other guys to have them flesh out and learn. Unfortunately, I won't believe it 'til I hear it!  The point is that he's a fantastic singer, and all of that stuff would just be an added bonus.

[TL]

PC, can you at least see how some people may take issue with you basically saying that you won't believe that he actually writes material for his own albums unless you actually see him do it? Do you always assume musicians don't write their own music unless you actually see them do it? The man has had a career in music for decades at this point, is it really difficult to believe that he's capable of doing some writing?

[Adami]

I think most of his reasoning is that JLB has never once shown to play a single instrument and that he was otherwise occupied while this CD was mostly written.

[Bertielee]

If I remember it weel-but Geez, I cannot remember where I read it- only "some" material had been written before James joines the others. I assume he took part in "some" material himself as well.
TBH, and repeating myself, I just didn't see how this track could be so controversial. More than 200 posts, wow! As for me, the more I listen to it, the more I like it because I hear nuances I didn't on the first listens.

[ariich]

I still don't get the whole plays an instrument = writes music link. I've got plenty of friends who just play one or two orchestral instruments at an amateur standards, but still know more than than enough music theory to write a rock song. The only thing is guitar riffs, which are very hard to write for non-guitarists, so I imagine those are Guillory's main contribution.

[Perpetual Change]

I think most of his reasoning is that JLB has never once shown to play a single instrument and that he was otherwise occupied while this CD was mostly written.

Yup.

I still don't get the whole plays an instrument = writes music link. I've got plenty of friends who just play one or two orchestral instruments at an amateur standards, but still know more than than enough music theory to write a rock song. The only thing is guitar riffs, which are very hard to write for non-guitarists, so I imagine those are Guillory's main contribution.

Well, if he's not writing the guitar parts, then what's he writing?

The man has had a career in music for decades at this point, is it really difficult to believe that he's capable of doing some writing?

A career that's never required him to do any more than write his own vocal parts, if that. Again, not minimalizing what James does. Just sayin'.