Author Topic: Life in prison for making porn?  (Read 53166 times)

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Offline William Wallace

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Life in prison for making porn?
« on: July 13, 2010, 11:42:27 AM »
John Stagliano runs an adult film company and has been charged with violating federal obscenity laws. If he's convicted he could go to prison for life.

You can read an overview of the case here.
I'm primarily interested in discussing the subjective nature of the charges. For example, how exactly do you define "obscenity"?

The judge said that the jury will have to use something called the Miller Test.
Quote
the Miller test famously offers three prongs on which to distinguish obscenity from protected First Amendment expression. In order for a work to be obscene all three Milller requirements must be met...According to Miller, for a work to be obscene, it must first and foremost violate community standards. But despite adult stores selling hardcore porn of all kinds all over Washington, D.C., there has not been an obscenity prosecution here in more than two decades. Washington is not a community that seems to be at all concerned that adult films are being watched by local adults...Another prong of the Miller test is whether "the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value."

What are "community standards"? And what constitutes "literary, artistic, political or scientific value"? Those sound like moving targets, and I can't believe they may be enough to lock somebody up for life.

Can anybody with legal training educate me?


 

Online Adami

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 11:44:14 AM »
In the end, it's legislating subjective morality. The best response can be "the community majority feels this way, thus it's the law" which can obviously give way to some pretty horrible laws.
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Offline icysk8r

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 11:52:58 AM »
In the end, it's legislating subjective morality. The best response can be "the community majority feels this way, thus it's the law" which can obviously give way to some pretty horrible laws.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 12:33:52 PM »
This was one of the few areas where I thought Obama would be an improvement over his dim-witted predecessor.  Unfortunately, as we all know they're one and the same.  This really doesn't surprise me much, but I had hoped that they'd stop with these stupid prosecutions.

Anyhoo, thankfully he'll probably get off in DC.  The federales prosecute these guys all the time and rarely get convictions.  Normally, they'll order the movies shipped to the most wholesome and upstanding Bible-belt town they can dream up so they can prosecute with a sympathetic jury, and even then they rarely get convictions.  Truth be told, while they'd love to make an example out of him, they really just want his money.  They'll prosecute over and over hoping to bankrupt him, and if they win some cases, they'll seek forfeiture of all of his goodies.  It's really a lot of bullshit. 

On a sad note, Paul Little (Max Hardcore) is currently 18 months into his 46 month sentence for basically the same thing.  Even the jury that convicted him thought it was bullshit.  He actually considers it a victory because what they really wanted was his house in the Hollywood Hills [kick ass place].
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Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 12:47:11 PM »
That makes me fume with rage.

Quote
Based on Max Extreme 4, the city of Los Angeles in 1998 charged him with child pornography and distribution of obscenity. The fact that the actress was over the age of 18 was not disputed; they brought charges based solely on the fact that the actress was portraying a character who was underage

Fuck our government in the fucking neck.

Lets give these dickwads moar power guyz, sounds like a fantastic idea.

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 12:50:40 PM »
Yea, that was by far the worst judgement I've heard in a long time. By that logic, all asian porn should be illegal.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2010, 12:51:15 PM »
Yes.  Yes, it should be.
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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2010, 12:52:02 PM »
Yes.  Yes, it should be.

But then there'd be no tenticle porn, then what would Volk do when Rina wasn't there?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 12:58:28 PM »
Many eons ago ogrejedi started a thread in P/R (probably dt.net at that time still), asking the question whether CGI underage porn is illegal or not. I guess that conviction kinda answers the question.

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Offline Dr. SeaWolf

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 02:09:50 PM »
Yes.  Yes, it should be.

Silent Fox, I presume? :lol

My take on this is that everyone involved in the production of the films were consenting adults, so does it really matter whether the actresses were "portrayed" underage?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 03:09:42 PM »
The vagueness of porn-related laws and the serious consequences that come as a result of enforcing those laws really makes for a bad combo.

I'm not against the government enforcing laws regarding pornography when those laws are actually clear and well known to the people creating and viewing the material. However, I'd guess that most people view internet porn. And, given the random, "user-uploaded" nature of the material that many sites host, I also wouldn't be surprised if most or all of the porn online is illegal-- for copyright reasons, or because the actresses weren't old enough, or because the actresses were portraying younger people, or because the video is from a country with different laws, etc.

Who keeps track of all that, though? Who knows what the consequences for creating a video that violates "moral standards" are? What about people who view videos from Europe or Japan-- or stumble upon them on streaming sites-- where the age requirements are different?  What about hentai-- which seems to be legal and available for sale in nearly every DVD store and which seems to include (albeit drawn) high-school age girls performing sexual acts as a rule-- What are the consequences for people who sell and view that? Are there consequences that are enforced, or does that only happen when the government wants to make an example of some unlucky sap? Frankly, I don't know, and I'm sure most people don't, either. And yet people who most likely don't know what they're doing is wrong get put on sex offender lists and are humiliated in front of their friends and family for this stuff, even when many of these people are a far cry from the true culprits: those who use and exploit and psychologically scar adolescents and children.

This information needs to be made available to people, and the government shouldn't just punish people for things when they've failed completely to draw clear guidelines for the citizenry. I guess to sum it up: regular people going down because they're ignorant of their rights or because what their rights are is too vague is never a good thing, and especially not good for a country that's supposed to value liberty.

Online El Barto

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 04:47:04 PM »
Yes.  Yes, it should be.
Because prosecuting thought crimes will make us all safer.

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Offline ddtonfire

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 05:28:00 PM »
I think he was referring to asian pron.

Offline Seventh Son

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 05:30:04 PM »
I think he was referring to asian pron.
Assuming no one involved is underage, why should it be illegal, as long as all parties consent?
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Offline ddtonfire

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2010, 05:42:46 PM »
Assuming no one involved is underage, why should it be illegal, as long as all parties consent?
Do the octopuses consent?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2010, 05:48:31 PM »
I think he was referring to asian pron.
Assuming no one involved is underage, why should it be illegal, as long as all parties consent?

The implication here, if I'm getting it right, is that most countries in Asia have different age restrictions than us. I think in Japan actresses can be as young as 16. Meanwhile, most people get their pRon from various imageboards/streaming sites, where no one really knows the source or how old the actors are. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's still illegal to view porn from other countries that have different restrictions than us if the actors/actresses are under our age requirement.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 05:58:43 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2010, 08:25:07 PM »
Yes.  Yes, it should be.
You know a little about the legal profession. Any thoughts on my op?

Online El Barto

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2010, 08:39:41 PM »

The implication here, if I'm getting it right, is that most countries in Asia have different age restrictions than us. I think in Japan actresses can be as young as 16. Meanwhile, most people get their pRon from various imageboards/streaming sites, where no one really knows the source or how old the actors are. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's still illegal to view porn from other countries that have different restrictions than us if the actors/actresses are under our age requirement.
Japan actually has strict and well enforced laws on kiddy porn.  The ladies are 18, but due to the different cultural mores, they certainly try to exhibit youthful appearances.  For the legal part of it, point of origin doesn't matter.  Any American citizen is barred from possessing child pornography, regardless of where it came from or even where they are when viewing it. 
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 11:34:45 AM »
Today was the first day of testimony in the trial. There's an update here. It appears that the judge is making quite difficult for the press and public to find out what's going on.

Offline Volk9

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 12:01:18 PM »
Did someone say tentacles?
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Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 01:08:48 PM »
WW you don't understand. Its HIS courtroom.


Online Orbert

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 02:28:15 PM »
I think he was referring to asian pron.
Assuming no one involved is underage, why should it be illegal, as long as all parties consent?

The implication here, if I'm getting it right, is that most countries in Asia have different age restrictions than us. I think in Japan actresses can be as young as 16. Meanwhile, most people get their pRon from various imageboards/streaming sites, where no one really knows the source or how old the actors are. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's still illegal to view porn from other countries that have different restrictions than us if the actors/actresses are under our age requirement.

I thought the idea was that Asian porn consists almost entirely of actresses who look underage by American standards, and they're prosecuting the guy because the video portrays underage girls, even though it is known that the actresses themselves are over 18.

Offline Seventh Son

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 02:41:01 PM »
I think he was referring to asian pron.
Assuming no one involved is underage, why should it be illegal, as long as all parties consent?

The implication here, if I'm getting it right, is that most countries in Asia have different age restrictions than us. I think in Japan actresses can be as young as 16. Meanwhile, most people get their pRon from various imageboards/streaming sites, where no one really knows the source or how old the actors are. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's still illegal to view porn from other countries that have different restrictions than us if the actors/actresses are under our age requirement.

I thought the idea was that Asian porn consists almost entirely of actresses who look underage by American standards, and they're prosecuting the guy because the video portrays underage girls, even though it is known that the actresses themselves are over 18.
Well, as controversial as it may be, if the actresses involved are 18 and over, I don't consider it to be Child Pornography, despite how they are depicted. I don't approve of it being depicted in that fashion, mind you, but if they are adults and willingly consent to it, then as much as I disagree with it, its not illegal. At least in my eyes.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I guess I would compare it to depictions of murder or other crimes in films. Its acting, it isn't reality.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2010, 02:57:14 PM »
Well, here's where it gets even more bizarre.  As I recall, SCOTUS shot down the provision that said adults depicting children can be considered CP.  However, a slightly different incarnation of SCOTUS actually did tacitly decide (decline the petition) that a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting could.  So the way it works is that a real actress can portray an underage girl getting the high hard one, but an animated underage girl getting boffed is illegal.  And yes, there actually are people who've been convicted under such circumstances.  

What the fuck kinda sense does that make?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 05:11:18 PM by El Barto »
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Offline Seventh Son

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2010, 03:33:40 PM »
Well, here's where it gets even more bizarre.  As I recall, SCOTUS shot down the provision that said adults depicting children can't be considered CP.  However, a slightly different incarnation of SCOTUS actually did tacitly decide (decline the petition) that a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting could.  So the way it works is that a real actress can portray an underage girl getting the high hard one, but an animated underage girl getting boffed is illegal.  And yes, there actually are people who've been convicted under such circumstances. 

What the fuck kinda sense does that make?
Uh, none as far as I can tell. I don't approve of drawn pornography, nor drawn CP, but that's a bit... silly.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 07:47:22 AM »
The uk has recently changed its laws so that drawings of people who look look like they could be considered under-age now essentially constitutes CP. Which is idiotic to be quite frank.
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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 10:23:12 AM »
Good!  Now those stupid "Love is..." memes will be considered kiddie porn and go away.


Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 11:27:04 AM »
AGH! MY EYES! Government protect me.

Offline Seventh Son

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 02:13:44 PM »
Good!  Now those stupid "Love is..." memes will be considered kiddie porn and go away.


I've never seen that meme before.
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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2010, 02:45:53 PM »
"meme" is probably not the right word.  But there's all these pictures with "Love is..." and the little cherubs.  Or they would be cherubs if they had wings.  As it is, they're just naked children which is ZOMG KIDDIE PORN!!

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2010, 03:01:50 PM »
Good!  Now those stupid "Love is..." memes will be considered kiddie porn and go away.



Reported.

Online Adami

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2010, 03:27:19 PM »
I don't see any genital parts. I don't think it's going to be considered porn if they exist in the barby universe.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2010, 04:29:47 PM »
I never understood the allure of those comic strips.  Then again,  I don't think I was the target audience.

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Offline fsh3702

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2010, 12:23:40 AM »
in china distrubuting porn material of any form is illegal and supposed to get punished though they rarely get punished by government. that's one reason for the conflits between chinese government and google. the major search engine websites in china are all under severe surveillance, many key words are sifted.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Life in prison for making porn?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2010, 11:16:04 AM »