Stop the presses... Steven Wilson + JR?

[ClairvoyantCat]

That's actually kind of true.  I think their way too afraid of leaving behind their recent following of modern metal fans, something like that is never good for a band.  I didn't realize that it was this bad.... that they would leave out something they liked because they didn't think all the fans would agree.  I think most of their fans are often only in it for the odd times, long songs, heavy riffs, and solos, and for some reason that's the fan base they're most interested in pleasing right now...

Is it the modern metal fans though? Didn't they decide against the growls in Nightmare to Remember for the same reason Jordan said they left out the jam?

Or maybe the growls were just... bad

[TL]

Part two of that interview makes me sad. Jordan says that he had a really cool jam with DT with weird percussion noises etc, but they feel they can't do that kind of thing with DT because the fans 'wouldn't know what to do with it'. I'd love them to do something out of their comfort zone.

That is a very unfortunate attitude. I'm really hoping that we're just blowing it out of proportion, which is completely possible, but I really hope we're not missing out on some potentially amazing music because they don't feel that it 'fits' within the context of what a 'Dream Theater song' is. You almost have to wonder, if they'd had that kind of view ten or so years ago, would we have gotten Six Degrees?

Or maybe the growls were just... bad

Speaking of, someone showed me this yesterday;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA08YcnL1DE&feature=related  

[antigoon]

So much better than the actual words

[Adami]

So much better than the actual words

Sadly true.


Anyone have the video where the crew randomly put up the cookie monster during that part and portnoy totally lost track of the song?

[glaurung]

So much better than the actual words

Sadly true.


Anyone have the video where the crew randomly put up the cookie monster during that part and portnoy totally lost track of the song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU&playnext_from=TL&videos=UuCfcXMjWH4

[BRGM]

Hahahaha! x'D That one was funny! ehee...hehe

[Perpetual Change]

That is a very unfortunate attitude. I'm really hoping that we're just blowing it out of proportion, which is completely possible, but I really hope we're not missing out on some potentially amazing music because they don't feel that it 'fits' within the context of what a 'Dream Theater song' is. You almost have to wonder, if they'd had that kind of view ten or so years ago, would we have gotten Six Degrees?

This is why Dream Theater were better pre-Train of Thought. Back in the 90's, DT would have done that kind of thing on principle. And now (at least) Mike thinks that Dream Theater have "normal metal guy" fans. And then he gets all frustrated when he sees fans praising people like Steven Wilson 

Don't get me wrong-- the Dream Theater we have now is still very good. But if you're gonna do prog, you have got to go all the way with it. Dream Theater's apparent desire to put generic heaviness before making music that's actually progressive is, in the end, campier than anything they did on Images and Words.

[robwebster]

I'm very sorry if I come across as rude in any of this. I like to try and be polite and civil, 'cause I don't think anyone gets anywhere by just shouting. But I'm authentically baffled by some of this.

This is why Dream Theater were better pre-Train of Thought.

Do we know that's the turning point, or is that just a guess based on the point past which you've decided you don't like them as much?

Back in the 90's, DT would have done that kind of thing on principle. And now (at least) Mike thinks that Dream Theater have "normal metal guy" fans.

That's not why.

Mike Portnoy's always said that his tastes were hugely diverse at the time of... hell, at the time of When Dream and Day Unite. He's on record (somewhere!) as saying that he could've got into playing any kind of music. But he ended up in a prog band.

They have always chosen prog. Back in the Images and Words days, they were limiting themselves. Sure, they threw in a little bit of rap at the start of Take the Time. But, equally, they threw a little bit of rap into Train of Thought.

They've always pigeonholed themselves to an extent. Images and Words wasn't avant-garde techno groove funk. It was progressive rock with a touch of metal. Grand - what else is new? If anything, they've probably worked out that they can get away with a little more metal. So there we go, there's that experiment you were asking for.

And then he gets all frustrated when he sees fans praising people like Steven Wilson 

Okay, listen. I really don't mind conjecture. That's fine. But where the christ did that come from?!

Dream Theater's apparent desire to put generic heaviness before making music that's actually progressive is, in the end, campier than anything they did on Images and Words.

I really, really don't think you know what camp means.

[OperantChamber]

Or maybe the growls were just... bad

Then by the same logic maybe the jam that JR loved was just... bad.
I'm sure you remember Mike saying "In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow..."

[ClairvoyantCat]

Or maybe the growls were just... bad

Then by the same logic maybe the jam that JR loved was just... bad.
I'm sure you remember Mike saying "In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow..."

Maybe John just didn't have the heart to tell Portnoy he can't growl...

[OperantChamber]

 
Ok man.

[Perpetual Change]

Do we know that's the turning point, or is that just a guess based on the point past which you've decided you don't like them as much?

Train of Thought was the first album where the band went out of their way to write an album of genre-specific songs, particularly so-called "classic metal" songs, rather than songs that were just full of an abundance of ideas. That carried over to Octavarium, where the idea was writing various typical genre-specific songs, instead of songs that explored multiple genres. Aside from the title track, of course.

They've always pigeonholed themselves to an extent. Images and Words wasn't avant-garde techno groove funk. It was progressive rock with a touch of metal. Grand - what else is new? If anything, they've probably worked out that they can get away with a little more metal. So there we go, there's that experiment you were asking for.

If a percussive jam section is considered "too much" for the fans to handle, DT obviously think they have different fans than they've had all along. I don't know if Dream Theater are limiting themselves more now or not. But they seem a hell of a lot more self-conscious about what they do, whether it be this,  James not calling the shots on his own vocals, John's lyric style no longer being allowed, or the songs having to sound "contemporary." That's not good for a band that could use a boost of creativity.

Okay, listen. I really don't mind conjecture. That's fine. But where the christ did that come from?!

I remember reading Mike post something on his forum about why he doesn't understand why fans like certain artists so much, especially since those artists care way less about his fans than he does. But I can't find it now.

[sonatafanica]

JR's piano playing on Veneno Para las Hadas was really beautiful. If he did things like that then I would be a-o.k. with it.

[ClairvoyantCat]

Just listened to the growl section... thank god it was left out, just awful.  It's funny, because talking about it Mike makes it sound like growling in a metal song is new and original. 


I don't worry about Jordan fitting in on this project... I would be surprised if there is a style he can't do.  One thing, though, is that in the interview where Steven confirmed he and Mikael were doing something he said it was to have nothing to do with progressive metal.  I don't worry about Rudess, but more Portnoy fitting in with that.  I have a feeling Steven would kind of keep Rudess under control, any way. 

[TL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU&playnext_from=TL&videos=UuCfcXMjWH4

Holy shit, that is brilliant. 

I don't worry about Jordan fitting in on this project... I would be surprised if there is a style he can't do.  One thing, though, is that in the interview where Steven confirmed he and Mikael were doing something he said it was to have nothing to do with progressive metal.  I don't worry about Rudess, but more Portnoy fitting in with that.  I have a feeling Steven would kind of keep Rudess under control, any way.

I definitely agree that JR fitting in on a project with Steven Wilson wouldn't be a problem. He can play simple and melodic when he wants to. In fact, didn't he play on SW's solo album?

I actually don't think MP would have too much trouble fitting in on a project like that. It might take a little adjusting, but it would be workable.
Also, maybe after working on a project like that, he'd have a wider view of what a 'Dream Theater song' could be.

[hefdaddy42]

Okay, listen. I really don't mind conjecture. That's fine. But where the christ did that come from?!

I remember reading Mike post something on his forum about why he doesn't understand why fans like certain artists so much, especially since those artists care way less about his fans than he does. But I can't find it now.

I remember that too.  I think he was talking about Kevin Moore.

[ClairvoyantCat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU&playnext_from=TL&videos=UuCfcXMjWH4

Holy shit, that is brilliant. 

I don't worry about Jordan fitting in on this project... I would be surprised if there is a style he can't do.  One thing, though, is that in the interview where Steven confirmed he and Mikael were doing something he said it was to have nothing to do with progressive metal.  I don't worry about Rudess, but more Portnoy fitting in with that.  I have a feeling Steven would kind of keep Rudess under control, any way.

I definitely agree that JR fitting in on a project with Steven Wilson wouldn't be a problem. He can play simple and melodic when he wants to. In fact, didn't he play on SW's solo album?

I actually don't think MP would have too much trouble fitting in on a project like that. It might take a little adjusting, but it would be workable.
Also, maybe after working on a project like that, he'd have a wider view of what a 'Dream Theater song' could be.

As I remember, Kevin said Portnoy had trouble keeping it "under control" even in OSI, which was closely related to progressive metal.  If Portnoy is in on this project, which we have no confirmation for, I would worry about him wanting to draw them back into a metal style... And I hope the guy wanting him to sing was joking...