Metropolis Pt. 1 Instrumental is Fantastic

[Adami]

That's actually a good point about some of the modern instrumental sections, they repeat the sections a bit much.

"Well, we already played riff A under the solo, let's play it 16 more times, after 8 I'll add in some splash cymbals or something"
"Totally, then we can do it 18 more times with JR doing a generic JR riff over it that doesn't fit in the slightest bit"

[ZKX-2099]

This thread has made me go listen to Endless Sacrifice again.

God tier instrumental section.

[KevShmev]

The first 3/4 of the instrumental section in "Endless Sacrifice" is definitely a mixed bag for me, but the last bit of it (with that heavy riffing and Portnoy going nuts on the double bass drums) is pretty killer. 

[hefdaddy42]

The first 3/4 of the instrumental section in "Endless Sacrifice" is definitely a mixed bag for me, but the last bit of it (with that heavy riffing and Portnoy going nuts on the double bass drums) is pretty killer. 

It definitely gets better as it goes.  And the end of the song is golden.

[bosk1]

A shrug emote would be great here.

[Orbert]

A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one.  They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself.  Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.

The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me.  They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years.  That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.

So would you agree that a person that did not start with I&W wouldn't feel this way?

If a band has a lot of albums out, it seems natural that you'd often prefer the era or specific album that you heard first.  As it happens, I started with I & W, so I'm all over the early stuff.  I've tried to imagine what it would be like to have started with the more recent stuff and gone back.  It seems like it would work better.  For me, a lot of what DT is doing now just isn't breaking a lot of new ground.  Someone going back would get to hear the roots of the modern DT sound, and it would hopefully sound more raw, more fresh, more adventurous to them.

DT has gotten bolder and better at some things; it's not like everything they're doing now is crap.  It's just that they've made a lot of music now, and are starting to run out of horizons to chase down.

[Plasmastrike]

I started with Train Of Thought, and definitely agree with Orbert.

[?]

Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.

I agree with all of this!

[Darkes7]

I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...

 

Elaborate?

Probably not really necessary.

Sorry, I forgot there's only one correct point of view. Here, let me fix it:
METROPOLIS IS THE BEST SONG EVER BECAUSE IT'S A CLASSIC

Am I awesome now?

[OperantChamber]

If a band has a lot of albums out, it seems natural that you'd often prefer the era or specific album that you heard first.  As it happens, I started with I & W, so I'm all over the early stuff.  I've tried to imagine what it would be like to have started with the more recent stuff and gone back.  It seems like it would work better.  For me, a lot of what DT is doing now just isn't breaking a lot of new ground.  Someone going back would get to hear the roots of the modern DT sound, and it would hopefully sound more raw, more fresh, more adventurous to them.

DT has gotten bolder and better at some things; it's not like everything they're doing now is crap.  It's just that they've made a lot of music now, and are starting to run out of horizons to chase down.

Ok I see what you mean and I could absolutely see myself feeling the same way if I had known about DT back in the I&W days. I also think that the fact you've seen each album come over the course of many years makes the music less impactful than it is to a guy like me jumping in 9 albums into their career.
Working my way backwards from SC made the younger albums feel like they were still piecing together what DT would become. I'm one of those guys that thinks DT truly came into form with JR and Metropolis Pt. 2.
I've just felt like some people were being unfair with the new material but I understand why you feel the way you do.

Thanks Orbert!

[TAC]

Orbert's made some great points here.

I've been on board with DT since right before I&W came out. Whether you expeience a band in real time, or go back throught their catalog, each provides a unique journey. Being an "older" fan, I actually have never felt like their best days are behind them. Never. To me, I&W is one of those magical albums that comes along very rarely. It's not just my favorite DT album, it's my fave album of all time.

Back then, the instrumental section in Metorpolis Pt1 was all about "We're Dream Theater, and this is what we do". It basically became a signature section. No instrumental section in their catalog will have or be able to recreate the same impact that it did, at least for me.
That being said, I LOVE the Endless Sacrifice intrumental section. To me it signifies the tension and struggles of being separated, but it then evolves musically into a sort of reconciliation of the situation.

I also happen to like TMOLS section as well. In fact, the only time I've ever thought of a forced instrumental section was the first time I heard New Milennium.

[bosk1]

I also have been onboard since I&W, and I also agree that "I&W is one of those magical albums that comes along very rarely."  And yet, it's not my favorite DT album.  To me, as good as I&W is, they took everything that was already phenominal about I&W and Awake, and took it to a whole new, previousy unexplored level with SFAM, and then did the same all over again with 6DOIT.  To me, they've topped I&W at least twice (and depending on my mood at any given moment, I might say they topped it again with Octavarium and BCSL).  Will they top it again?  I don't know and I don't care.  When the standard is so high, and you have a band that repeatedly comes close to such a high standard, I don't really care whether they actually surpass it again.

So all that being said, I say merely to illustrate an example of another "old-timer" who doesn't think Metropolis is better just because it's old.  As I said earlier, it just feels better constructed and feels like it fits the mood, tone, and music of the song better than the ES instrumental.

[TAC]

Bosk, I'm with you on SFAM, my 2nd fave DT album.

I really liked 6D's when it came out, moreso because of Disc 1. I know you like Disc 2 very much.

[hefdaddy42]

So all that being said, I say merely to illustrate an example of another "old-timer" who doesn't think Metropolis is better just because it's old.  As I said earlier, it just feels better constructed and feels like it fits the mood, tone, and music of the song better than the ES instrumental.

This, plus I don't know any "old-timers" who think any of the old stuff is better just because it's old.  That's just a silly thing to say about anyone here, and frankly I'm getting tired of it.

[Darkes7]

And I haven't said anything age-related, I don't know where you're getting that from.

[hefdaddy42]

And I haven't said anything age-related, I don't know where you're getting that from.

I don't know anyone else who likes the older stuff just because it's old, either.  I was just saying that as an old-timer.

It's as stupid as accusing people of preferring the newer albums just because they're new.  That's just stupid.

[Darkes7]

I haven't said even that. I said it feels to me Metropolis and in general older songs are favoured by some people because everything back then was great by definition and now everything is "soulless and over the top".

[hefdaddy42]

I haven't said even that. I said it feels to me Metropolis and in general older songs are favoured by some people because everything back then was great by definition and now everything is "soulless and over the top".

That's what I'm getting at.  The older ones aren't favored "because everything back then was great by definition."  They are favored because they weren't soulless and over the top (for the most part).  The age of the song has nothing to do with it.  So enough.

[nightmare_cinema]

I love the song Metrpolis Part 1 to an infinitely high brilliantly awesome amount, but the instrumental section doesn't stand out to me as a whole (except for the fact that 5:50 was the first DT I ever heard, played every time the guitar tech at work tested out a new amp or was noodling around so I'll always remember that!). But like someone else said, it totally fits, it doesn't feel like oh here's a song, bam here's an instrumental section, oh here's a song again like some songs do (Sacrificed Sons for example in a biiiiig way).

But in terms of emotional content, the instrumental from SS, and Endless Sacrifice, and a whole heap of other Dream Theater songs get to me in a way that the Metropolis instrumental just can't. Apart from the ridiculous 6:30 keyboard abomination in Endless Sacrifice that song gets to me sooo much. I think I settled on choosing a section of that for a presentation I did at uni on progressive metal, I only had about 30 seconds to a minute's space to play some actual music so I went for part of that... even got a rush just from whacking it on and standing awkwardly for a minute while everyone listened 

[Orbert]

Damn, I love it when hot women can talk intelligently about music!

I'm sorry if that sounds sexist (because it is) but... damn.

If someone ever created a reality TV show called "Hot Women Talking Intelligently About Music" I guarantee you it would be a hit.  I would watch that show every day.

[King Postwhore]

As an old fart I think DT has lost some of it's melody in the instrumental parts.  That's why I love TCOT & Octavarium because it was more melodic than some of the newer songs. I think olf fogeys like the heavy with the melody.  Mabye the other old fogey's will disagree but that's how I feel.

[nightmare_cinema]

Damn, I love it when hot women can talk intelligently about music!

I'm sorry if that sounds sexist (because it is) but... damn.

If someone ever created a reality TV show called "Hot Women Talking Intelligently About Music" I guarantee you it would be a hit.  I would watch that show every day.

Thanks... I love it when anyone talks intelligently about music but it seems to be kinda a rarity unless you're somewhere like here! I actually think it would be a hit with a teeny tiny niche market but no body else and therefore not really a hit and probably get pulled off the air really quickly.

[ZKX-2099]

I love the instrumental bits in Sacrificed Sons...

[Orbert]

Damn, I love it when hot women can talk intelligently about music!

I'm sorry if that sounds sexist (because it is) but... damn.

If someone ever created a reality TV show called "Hot Women Talking Intelligently About Music" I guarantee you it would be a hit.  I would watch that show every day.

Thanks... I love it when anyone talks intelligently about music but it seems to be kinda a rarity unless you're somewhere like here! I actually think it would be a hit with a teeny tiny niche market but no body else and therefore not really a hit and probably get pulled off the air really quickly.

Yeah, it would be about as popular as prog is on the radio.  I guess I got a bit carried away there.

[Jamesman42]

I ... agree that "I&W is one of those magical albums that comes along very rarely."  And yet, it's not my favorite DT album.  To me, as good as I&W is, they took everything that was already phenominal about I&W and Awake, and took it to a whole new, previousy unexplored level with 6DOIT.  To me, they've topped I&W at least twice (and depending on my mood at any given moment, I might say they topped it again with Octavarium and BCSL).  Will they top it again?  I don't know and I don't care.  When the standard is so high, and you have a band that repeatedly comes close to such a high standard, I don't really care whether they actually surpass it again.

Minor changes for me, but we seem to view DT pretty commonly.

[wasp2020]

Metropolis instrumental is very well structured, the transitions are really well done and you can see the gradual rise in dissonance and intensity as it goes on. That and there's no real big solo tradeoff formula going on, it's simply an instrumental section in the truest sense, and it evolves. Entirely personally, I see it as going with the whole "as a man/as a child" loss of innocence theme, with it going through Childhood with all the Hemispheres chords and the peppy Sonic the Hedgehog unision, then Adolescence with that one riff and guitar solo, and then finally Adulthood with the craziness going haywire.

I actually don't mind the ES instrumental. If it weren't for the very drawn out unision sections with that one slow riff at the end of it, it would be better. I don't think it even feels very out of place, I just think it's really very unremarkable, some tradeoffs here and there, some riffs, nothing all that special. I just sort of get through it so I can get to the cool "OVAH THA DEE-STENCE..." sections.

But, I don't think not-so-good instrumentals stuck in decent songs are as unfortunate as sort of neat instrumental sections in not-so-good songs, like TDEN in my opinion.

[wasp2020]

Also, I have to agree with what Orbert said as well, what you listened to first is pretty important

[TAC]

But, I don't think not-so-good instrumentals stuck in decent songs are as unfortunate as sort of neat instrumental sections in not-so-good songs, like TDEN in my opinion.

Wow, that section kicks all sorts of ass!

[Dream Team]

As an old fart I think DT has lost some of it's melody in the instrumental parts.  That's why I love TCOT & Octavarium because it was more melodic than some of the newer songs. I think olf fogeys like the heavy with the melody.  Mabye the other old fogey's will disagree but that's how I feel.

I'm a 43-yr-old fogey, and I COMPLETELY agree with you that melody is the make-or-break factor. ALL of the instrumental sections in Images and Words were VERY melodic, whereas modern ones often aren't. Moore influence? (oh no I went there)

[hefdaddy42]

As an old fart I think DT has lost some of it's melody in the instrumental parts.  That's why I love TCOT & Octavarium because it was more melodic than some of the newer songs. I think olf fogeys like the heavy with the melody.  Mabye the other old fogey's will disagree but that's how I feel.

I'm a 43-yr-old fogey, and I COMPLETELY agree with you that melody is the make-or-break factor. ALL of the instrumental sections in Images and Words were VERY melodic, whereas modern ones often aren't. Moore influence? (oh no I went there)

I actually don't think it was the Moore influence.

[TAC]

Kevin Moore's stamp is definitely on I&W. Heck, he was 1/4th of the musicians that wrote it...and if you discount MP as a notes-smith, Moore would have an even stronger influence. I'm sure he had quite an impact on the band dynamic during that period.

[hefdaddy42]

No, I meant that I don't think it is a lack of Moore that has caused the change.  I think it is the presence of JP and MP.

[TAC]

Sure...  The band has simply evolved. I still like them as much now as I ever have!

[Orbert]

No, I meant that I don't think it is a lack of Moore that has caused the change.  I think it is the presence of JP and MP.

Surely you can see the flaw in that reasoning.  JP and MP were present before.

[Jamesman42]

He may be saying that they took it over moreso than before.