DT: Song-oriented or genre-oriented.

[Jamesman42]

Someone has made this point before, and maybe we can expand on it:

DT seems to be more about trying to hit it in their genre (seemingly more metal than anything else) than just write good songs. Take SC: it was dark and pretty heavy, and not well-received. BC&SL lifting some of the heaviness up and was a lot better received.

On BC&SL, they seemed a bit more song-oriented. I think DT does that best. Look at IaW, Awake, FII. Maybe a few misses on some of those albums, but they developed SONGS and didn't play to any kind of hype. SFAM was great to many because it was focused on telling a story with the music, and not playing to a genre.

SDOIT is also very well-liked, and again, they were experimenting with their sound but not trying too hard. ToT came along, and you can see maybe a little too much effort to be heavy (I personally love ToT).

Some people find 8VM weak, and it may be because they may have not been as focused on writing songs as writing a thematic album (of course, the song that sums it up is one of the fan favorites here).

After they left their record label and went to RR, it just seems like their approach has changed to producing new music. I stand by BC&SL being step in the right direction, and hope that being free from the 12-Step Suite and anything else (TBOT), they will churn out an amazing album that will age very well.

Just some thoughts I've been having lately, pretty cool to think about.

[Darkes7]

I disagree they have ever tried to "fit into the genre". The only exception would be Train of Thought, which was meant to be a heavy album, but then if you look at Endless Sacrifice and Vacant, it was still natural and not 100% "let's get heavy, YEAH". Systematic Chaos - definitely not, the controversial ideas actually make it the most out of the box album this far.

[orcus116]

What was so controversial about Systematic Chaos?

[antigoon]

I think as long as they write and record simultaneously we're going to keep seeing the problems (well, I think they're problems) inherent in that process. They're so gifted that they can catch lightning in a bottle pretty often, but I always wonder what they could produce if they just let things stew.

So I guess, no, I don't think that SC suffers because they tried to write a "balls" album, I just think the stuff they happened to poop out in the studio (which made it onto the record) wasn't that good and suffered from a lack of refinement)

[Jamesman42]

I think as long as they write and record simultaneously we're going to keep seeing the problems (well, I think they're problems) inherent in that process. They're so gifted that they can catch lightning in a bottle pretty often, but I always wonder what they could produce if they just let things stew.

So I guess, no, I don't think that SC suffers because they tried to write a "balls" album, I just think the stuff they happened to poop out in the studio (which made it onto the record) wasn't that good and suffered from a lack of refinement)

I agree with this as well as my thoughts...I think they brought that mentality into the studio though.

[antigoon]

I think as long as they write and record simultaneously we're going to keep seeing the problems (well, I think they're problems) inherent in that process. They're so gifted that they can catch lightning in a bottle pretty often, but I always wonder what they could produce if they just let things stew.

So I guess, no, I don't think that SC suffers because they tried to write a "balls" album, I just think the stuff they happened to poop out in the studio (which made it onto the record) wasn't that good and suffered from a lack of refinement)

I agree with this as well as my thoughts...I think they brought that mentality into the studio though.

Oh I definitely think they brought the mentality in the studio, but I don't really think that it was the sole reason for its lame-ness, although it's certainly part of it.

[Jamesman42]

Yeah, it was like a bad combo. Anyone know how DT did it back in the day, even with albums like SDOIT?

[Slain]

I think DT does the best when they're trying to write good songs, instead of trying to just stick specifically to one genre (as said before, ToT was an example of this, not bad, but still). To stay interesting, DT always has those songs like Prophets of War (hate it or love it) that sort of come out of nowhere, and sound different and refereshing. Hell, even ToT had a song like that (Vacant). I think that's what makes DT enjoyable to listen to, they have a large discography that spans from songs like "Hollow Years" to "Glass Prison" to "Repentance", which are all different from one another.

 The moment they start trying to fit into the genre mold too much, is when they'll stop becoming interesting- at least to me. I'd be pretty disappointed if they pulled an AC/DC and started churning out the same album for 20 years.

[skydivingninja]

I disagree they have ever tried to "fit into the genre". The only exception would be Train of Thought, which was meant to be a heavy album, but then if you look at Endless Sacrifice and Vacant, it was still natural and not 100% "let's get heavy, YEAH". Systematic Chaos - definitely not, the controversial ideas actually make it the most out of the box album this far.

Eh...I wouldn't call Systematic Chaos out of the box at all, and I wouldn't really call "Endless Sacrifice" "natural."  But whatever. 

DT are capable of writing great songs.  We know that, I just listed 50 great ones, but there are times where it seems that when they write nowadays, they are very focused on being prog metal.  In almost every interview you see them talk about how proud they are to be heavy and how proud they are to be prog and uncool, rather than "I'm really proud of 'The Count of Tuscany,' I think we hit it out of the park."  BC&SL was an improvement in that their "inspiration row" was filled with old DT albums, and they, I think, were trying to go back a bit to what made those early albums special: the songs.  Basically, if DT keep looking back to the way they used to do things, we should be getting an album better than 6DoiT in 2011 

[Dublagent66]

I've always thought that DT's songwriting was meant to represent many different genres.  That's what makes them so diverse.  Even though they seem to be predominately progressive metal, I would say song oriented.

[orcus116]

DT hasn't really done many different genres, at least not in awhile. Pretty much all of their newer stuff is just facets of progressive metal.

[Darkes7]

I disagree they have ever tried to "fit into the genre". The only exception would be Train of Thought, which was meant to be a heavy album, but then if you look at Endless Sacrifice and Vacant, it was still natural and not 100% "let's get heavy, YEAH". Systematic Chaos - definitely not, the controversial ideas actually make it the most out of the box album this far.

Eh...I wouldn't call Systematic Chaos out of the box at all, and I wouldn't really call "Endless Sacrifice" "natural."  But whatever. 

DT are capable of writing great songs.  We know that, I just listed 50 great ones, but there are times where it seems that when they write nowadays, they are very focused on being prog metal.  In almost every interview you see them talk about how proud they are to be heavy and how proud they are to be prog and uncool, rather than "I'm really proud of 'The Count of Tuscany,' I think we hit it out of the park."  BC&SL was an improvement in that their "inspiration row" was filled with old DT albums, and they, I think, were trying to go back a bit to what made those early albums special: the songs.  Basically, if DT keep looking back to the way they used to do things, we should be getting an album better than 6DoiT in 2011 

Well, I think the titles: Forsaken, The Dark Eternal Night, Repentance speak for themselves here. And I meant that if there are some obvious calm moments, they didn't go all heavy because... they decided they're going all heavy, but they did it because they felt like recording a heavy album.

Well, I haven't noticed that they're so proud to be heavy, but actually I'm getting the impression that indeed BC&SL is more about songs and less about the whole album than the previous albums. As much as you may hate them, songs like I Walk Beside You or Prophets of War had their place on their albums and I wouldn't want to mess around with the order on any DT album in the SFAM -> SC period (let's leave the early period, it's a different thing). On BC&SL, I had several ideas of arranging the album in a different way. I don't see this as a very good sign personally, as I like albums that flow perfectly. (What doesn't mean I don't like BC&SL, it's a very good album and I listened to it basically only from start to finish.)

DT hasn't really done many different genres, at least not in awhile. Pretty much all of their newer stuff is just facets of progressive metal.

Progressive metal done right naturally includes many different genres. They've always been doing that and I see no difference recently - ironically, say whatever you want about the album, but Systematic Chaos is the perfect example of this.

[Nic35]

In almost every interview you see them talk about how proud they are to be heavy and how proud they are to be prog and uncool, rather than "I'm really proud of 'The Count of Tuscany,' I think we hit it out of the park."

You totally nailed it.

[orcus116]

Progressive metal done right naturally includes many different genres. They've always been doing that and I see no difference recently - ironically, say whatever you want about the album, but Systematic Chaos is the perfect example of this.

Ok then, list the many different genres that found their way into Systematic Chaos. I can give you Prophets of War but that's about it.

[Darkes7]

Forsaken - obvious gothic influence
Constant Motion - obvious thrash influence
The Dark Eternal Night - obvious extreme metal and comedy influence
Repentance - obvious melancholic rock influence

Hm...

[Adami]

Forsaken - obvious gothic influence
Constant Motion - obvious thrash influence
The Dark Eternal Night - obvious extreme metal and comedy influence
Repentance - obvious melancholic rock influence

Hm...

Aside from Reptence, it's still just metal. You can break it into a thousand sub genres if you want, but it's metal.

[Darkes7]

  Then what is a "different genre"? Crunkcore?

(Talking about genres that can actually be combined with progressive metal...)

[Adami]

Jazz? Blues? Classical? Hip hop? Salsa? Punk? Electronica? Industrial? Fusion? New Age? New Wave? Pop? Synth pop?

Lots of possibilities. Some will take quite a bit of creativity to fuse with prog metal correctly, but it can be done.

[Jamesman42]

Forsaken - obvious gothic influence
Constant Motion - obvious thrash influence
The Dark Eternal Night - obvious extreme metal and comedy influence
Repentance - obvious melancholic rock influence

Hm...

[skydivingninja]

Well, I think the titles: Forsaken, The Dark Eternal Night, Repentance speak for themselves here. And I meant that if there are some obvious calm moments, they didn't go all heavy because... they decided they're going all heavy, but they did it because they felt like recording a heavy album.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.  I understand English isn't your first language, so I'm just letting you know I'm not really sure what your point is here.

And I agree with Orcus, I think there was a GMD thread where we debated how much DT have really progressed.  The conclusion I've come to is while they may throw dashes of certain influences (electronic/Muse/Queen in PoW, Tool in "The Great Debate," Indian music in "Home," U2 in "I Walk Beside You," for example) their music is always just a variation of rock, metal and prog.  Like Adami said, there are thousands of subgenres, but it all falls under rock music, there's never really been a huge shift in sound to really alienate fans, just a few bad albums of the same basic sound to do that.

Maybe Dream Theater could write a song that sounds unlike anything they've done before, but still sounds like Dream Theater, then write seven more songs with that sort of flavor.  Maybe go back to that world music influence they were playing around with during 6DoiT?  Imagine a Peter Gabriel style experimentation with world music combined with progressive metal...I think it could work.

[TL]

It would definitely be interesting to see them play around with some styles they haven't really worked with before. Obviously it would and should still have that DT flavor to it, but I'm hoping they get a bit experimental on the next album.

[KevShmev]

I know I have mentioned this many times before, but I remember Mike Portnoy talking about "Liquid Dreams" (from the second LTE record) way back when and saying "it was a song DT could never do."  That says it all about how DT is unwilling to stray too far from their core sound.  Not saying they should radically change their sound, but a song or two here and there wouldn't be a bad thing at all. 

[orcus116]

I just don't see the harm in trying, though I'd love if they'd completely stray away for a whole album just to get some complete freshness. It would be great if they made an album of 7 or 8 improvised songs, each with its own tone or prominent instrument because I know they have the talent to do so.

[hefdaddy42]

I know I have mentioned this many times before, but I remember Mike Portnoy talking about "Liquid Dreams" (from the second LTE record) way back when and saying "it was a song DT could never do."  That says it all about how DT is unwilling to stray too far from their core sound.  Not saying they should radically change their sound, but a song or two here and there wouldn't be a bad thing at all. 

I agree with this.  And I find it telling that (IMHO) Vacant is an example of a song that DT could never do, and never would, until JR, JM, and JLB just sat down and did it, without JP & MP.

It would be cool if those three would exert a little more initiative like that in the future.

[Darkes7]

Well, I think the titles: Forsaken, The Dark Eternal Night, Repentance speak for themselves here. And I meant that if there are some obvious calm moments, they didn't go all heavy because... they decided they're going all heavy, but they did it because they felt like recording a heavy album.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.  I understand English isn't your first language, so I'm just letting you know I'm not really sure what your point is here.

If they decided that "now we're recording a heavy album because that's what's cool", all 7 songs would be 100% heavy.
But apparently, they decided they're recording a heavy album, because they wanted to. Which means it's heavy, but if they felt like adding some calmer moments, they did. Can't explain it any simpler.

As for the rest, you're going too far here. There are bands that like doing things on the border of sanity (no particularpainofsalvation examples I have in mind here ofc ) and it actually works, and there are bands who progress more carefully, and that's DT. What's the point of doing something completely weird for them if they don't want to? They don't just record songs and albums that are what can be called "standard progressive metal" (actually, The Count of Tuscany is the closest to this on BC&SL... and interestingly, it's the most praised around here), they try different influences as well. What doesn't mean they have to pull a Scarsick and go rapcore or disco on the next album, because that would be simply unnatural for them, or at least I think so. Maybe they have a surprise hidden somewhere for the next album(s), but for now, I don't think that's going to happen, and if it would have to happen because "the fans want it" - sorry, no.

[skydivingninja]

Thanks for clearing that up, Darkes.

ANTR and TSF are much more "standard prog metal" than The Count of Tuscany is.

I understand completely if DT don't want to go in a new direction, but as others pointed out, they are incredibly comfortable in their prog metal niche, and it would be really refreshing to see either a completely new source of inspiration that took over for a whole album while managing to sound like Dream Theater, or make a few songs that are completely out of the box.  It worked with "Vacant" and "Disappear," I'm sure they could make it work more often.

It would be cool if those three would exert a little more initiative like that in the future.

This would be ideal and awesome.

[perfectchaos180]

DT didn't care about hitting it big until they signed with Roadrunner, now they are trying to attract fans of other Roadrunner bands

this is pretty apparent to me

[Plasmastrike]

You're kind of arguing an irrelevant point, Darkes.

The topic at hand isn't what they "want to do" so much. All these other posters are saying is that they think it would be refreshing to hear music with a little different style on input from members and various genres. They're not saying "OMG DT you have to what we say", so coming back with statements about what they "want to do" is beside the point. We're just talking hypothetically about music.

At least that's how I see it..

[TL]

DT didn't care about hitting it big until they signed with Roadrunner, now they are trying to attract fans of other Roadrunner bands

this is pretty apparent to me

I don't think that's really true. If they were trying to attract a more mainstream crowd, I doubt they would have released a 6 song album with 4 of the songs being over 10 minutes. The only real change is that they have a label that actually supports them now. Not to mention, The Count of Tuscany, lyrics aside, was one of the most musically interesting things they've done in years.

[robwebster]

Progressive metal done right naturally includes many different genres. They've always been doing that and I see no difference recently - ironically, say whatever you want about the album, but Systematic Chaos is the perfect example of this.

Ok then, list the many different genres that found their way into Systematic Chaos. I can give you Prophets of War but that's about it.

In fairness, what he's trying to get at is definitely right. It's clearly not standard Dream Theater or else everyone would be fairly cheerful about the whole thing.

Forsaken is heavily tinged with Evanescencey or Nightwish vibes. The Dark Eternal Night has this really sludgey Mudvayne quality to it - the harsh vocals are madly out of line with anything they'd done before. Or since. Repentance takes its cues, if anything, from Porcupine Tree - it sounds like Dream Theater doing a Porcy Tree song.

DT are naturally more upbeat (and manly) than Evanescence, more technical than Mudvayne, and more exuberant than Porcupine Tree, so they're not straight-up renditions, but I think they've taken on board a lot of styles that are way out of their comfort zone. And many of their listeners' comfort zones.

Nobody ever complains that Systematic Chaos just sounds like normal Dream Theater. Let's face it, it's taken a bunch of risks. Riskiest album of the lot, potentially. As far as a fair chunk of the most critical sect of their fanbase is concerned (that's this place), it's a risk that didn't quite work out, but hey. It's way further off the beaten track than Black Clouds & Silver Linings. Or even Scenes from a Memory.



Incidentally, Train of Thought's starting to be reevaluated a bit now. Not nearly as much the Scrappy as it was a few years ago. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence had a similar renaissance a few years back - I can remember when everyone would moan about how overwrought the title track was and how Misunderstood and The Great Debate were overlong and didn't have enough ideas and how could they follow up Scenes with something like Six Degrees and all that dancing. Give it four years and I doubt SC will be as scorned as it is right now.

[skydivingninja]

DT didn't care about hitting it big until they signed with Roadrunner, now they are trying to attract fans of other Roadrunner bands

this is pretty apparent to me

They finished SC before they signed with Roadrunner.  And they still don't really "care" about hitting it big, they hit it big in 1992 with "Pull Me Under," they just think its cool that they're getting albums in the billboard top ten and getting some more mainstream recognition.  Your argument is invalid. 

[Darkes7]

You're kind of arguing an irrelevant point, Darkes.

The topic at hand isn't what they "want to do" so much. All these other posters are saying is that they think it would be refreshing to hear music with a little different style on input from members and various genres. They're not saying "OMG DT you have to what we say", so coming back with statements about what they "want to do" is beside the point. We're just talking hypothetically about music.

At least that's how I see it..

Well, yes, but I thought it's quite important here. It's not a completely "what if" thread like the series of hypothetical DT threads, as it's more realistic. I'm just looking at a combination of what would be good and what actually can happen, and I think that the two mostly overlap each other here.

DT didn't care about hitting it big until they signed with Roadrunner, now they are trying to attract fans of other Roadrunner bands

this is pretty apparent to me

Aforementioned Pull Me Under + songs on BC&SL are basically enough to prove this invalid. Plus, I don't care what kind of bands are mostly at Roadrunner, but I'm really happy in case of DT and also Porcupine Tree that now they actually get a reasonable promotion, and in case of DT for the first time since Awake (just 13 years...) they've had albums released on vinyl and for the first time ever they're getting special versions of albums with some very interesting additional content. I don't care what kind of conspiracy someone might see, but I'm perfectly happy.

Progressive metal done right naturally includes many different genres. They've always been doing that and I see no difference recently - ironically, say whatever you want about the album, but Systematic Chaos is the perfect example of this.

Ok then, list the many different genres that found their way into Systematic Chaos. I can give you Prophets of War but that's about it.

In fairness, what he's trying to get at is definitely right. It's clearly not standard Dream Theater or else everyone would be fairly cheerful about the whole thing.

Forsaken is heavily tinged with Evanescencey or Nightwish vibes. The Dark Eternal Night has this really sludgey Mudvayne quality to it - the harsh vocals are madly out of line with anything they'd done before. Or since. Repentance takes its cues, if anything, from Porcupine Tree - it sounds like Dream Theater doing a Porcy Tree song.

DT are naturally more upbeat (and manly) than Evanescence, more technical than Mudvayne, and more exuberant than Porcupine Tree, so they're not straight-up renditions, but I think they've taken on board a lot of styles that are way out of their comfort zone. And many of their listeners' comfort zones.

Nobody ever complains that Systematic Chaos just sounds like normal Dream Theater. Let's face it, it's taken a bunch of risks. Riskiest album of the lot, potentially. As far as a fair chunk of the most critical sect of their fanbase is concerned (that's this place), it's a risk that didn't quite work out, but hey. It's way further off the beaten track than Black Clouds & Silver Linings. Or even Scenes from a Memory.



Incidentally, Train of Thought's starting to be reevaluated a bit now. Not nearly as much the Scrappy as it was a few years ago. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence had a similar renaissance a few years back - I can remember when everyone would moan about how overwrought the title track was and how Misunderstood and The Great Debate were overlong and didn't have enough ideas and how could they follow up Scenes with something like Six Degrees and all that dancing. Give it four years and I doubt SC will be as scorned as it is right now.

Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I meant. I'm also hoping for the same thing to happen, but it's still going to take some time.

[BRGM]

I like SC...especially musically, the instrumental sections in this albums is very technical and wierd....I like it.

[orcus116]

Progressive metal done right naturally includes many different genres. They've always been doing that and I see no difference recently - ironically, say whatever you want about the album, but Systematic Chaos is the perfect example of this.

Ok then, list the many different genres that found their way into Systematic Chaos. I can give you Prophets of War but that's about it.

In fairness, what he's trying to get at is definitely right. It's clearly not standard Dream Theater or else everyone would be fairly cheerful about the whole thing.

Forsaken is heavily tinged with Evanescencey or Nightwish vibes. The Dark Eternal Night has this really sludgey Mudvayne quality to it - the harsh vocals are madly out of line with anything they'd done before. Or since. Repentance takes its cues, if anything, from Porcupine Tree - it sounds like Dream Theater doing a Porcy Tree song.

DT are naturally more upbeat (and manly) than Evanescence, more technical than Mudvayne, and more exuberant than Porcupine Tree, so they're not straight-up renditions, but I think they've taken on board a lot of styles that are way out of their comfort zone. And many of their listeners' comfort zones.

Nobody ever complains that Systematic Chaos just sounds like normal Dream Theater. Let's face it, it's taken a bunch of risks. Riskiest album of the lot, potentially. As far as a fair chunk of the most critical sect of their fanbase is concerned (that's this place), it's a risk that didn't quite work out, but hey. It's way further off the beaten track than Black Clouds & Silver Linings. Or even Scenes from a Memory.



Incidentally, Train of Thought's starting to be reevaluated a bit now. Not nearly as much the Scrappy as it was a few years ago. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence had a similar renaissance a few years back - I can remember when everyone would moan about how overwrought the title track was and how Misunderstood and The Great Debate were overlong and didn't have enough ideas and how could they follow up Scenes with something like Six Degrees and all that dancing. Give it four years and I doubt SC will be as scorned as it is right now.

I doubt it. I appreciate the attempt to differentiate the songs on SC in terms of style but comparing them to something like Six Degrees is unfair because Six Degrees actually had completely different sounds on pretty much every track. I also have no idea why anyone would call SC risky. Risky would be creating a bunch of songs in a completely new style or genre you haven't done before. SC was just taking ideas in metal they've either done or touched on before and doing it worse.

[Darkes7]

Show me anything on SC that isn't ITPOE Pt. 1 and maybe Constant Motion that "they've done before and better".