Dream Theater's 11th Album v. Play Nice

[contest_sanity]

How is that relevant?

It may not be.  But perhaps my line of thought was that they are running within self-imposed boundaries rather than the requirements of some genre they're trying to sound like. 

[antigoon]

How is that relevant?

It may not be.  But perhaps my line of thought was that they are running within self-imposed boundaries rather than the requirements of some genre they're trying to sound like. 

That may be true, but unfortunately, I don't think one is better than the other.

[SystematicThought]

Okay, I got the idea after reading the System of a Down Thread.

What if they released a double album over the course of a year. Like the album comes out in say, October 2011, the first part of the album contains material like singles and a few other songs like Metropolis. Then 6 months later, they release the next part of the album which has epics on it. They could tour in between each album release.

Just an idea. Something new and different

[ariich]

What's the big deal over whether something is prog/progressive or not? I mean really, who gives a crap, surely the important thing is whether the music is good? There are plenty of truly progressive bands out there if that's what people want, but DT have never been like that, so I don't understand why this discussion always comes up. It was the reason I got bored with the last thread so it's a shame this thread has just carried on where it left off.

[Adami]

What's the big deal over whether something is prog/progressive or not? I mean really, who gives a crap, surely the important thing is whether the music is good? There are plenty of truly progressive bands out there if that's what people want, but DT have never been like that, so I don't understand why this discussion always comes up. It was the reason I got bored with the last thread so it's a shame this thread has just carried on where it left off.

I think it's because some of us who want them to try new things are calling "progressing" while some of us who want them to keep doing what they're doing are arguing the matter and it turns into what it is. But you're right, it doesn't matter at all.

[FlashCE]

Having good production would be a good change indeed. I'm so sick of Portnoy's kick sound. It's atrocious in Raw Dog and makes them sound like a teen metalcore band. Having less loud as shit guitars, more bass attack and midrange, and more keys during non solo sections would be good. JP needs to stop being so stuck up about his guitar tone, really. I think he's sacrificing the overall sound of the band by wanting a huge and heavy guitar sound.

[tri.ad]

To be fair, the mastering process these days also plays a role when it comes to the guitar sound. Have you noticed that in most recent music releases, the drums and the bass seem to not have enough punch and attack, while the guitars mostly seem to remain unaffected? Due to the guitars being the loudest and most aggressive element now, they tend to drown out the other instruments. It's not really something of which JP has the ultimate control.

I agree with most of your other points, though. Also, I'm really not fond of the sound of MP's snare drum on BCASL. It's too quiet, with far too little punch. On SC, it sounded really good compared to BCASL imo.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Here is a point I do not believe anyone has touched upon yet, except for briefly by Adami:

For the next Dream Theater album, the vocals need to be better. I am not talking about style, technique, or even choruses; more specifically, I am talking about verses.

The only vocal parts I ever seem to remember from Dream Theater songs are choruses. I never noticed it until this past year, when artists like John Mayer and R.E.M. came to dominate my playlist, whose respective catalogs are filled to the brim with songs where the verses are the highlight. Dream Theater verses, for the most part, seem like they are there only 'cause they have to be.

[Marvellous G]

Here is a point I do not believe anyone has touched upon yet, except for briefly by Adami:

For the next Dream Theater album, the vocals need to be better. I am not talking about style, technique, or even choruses; more specifically, I am talking about verses.

The only vocal parts I ever seem to remember from Dream Theater songs are choruses. I never noticed it until this past year, when artists like John Mayer and R.E.M. came to dominate my playlist, whose respective catalogs are filled to the brim with songs where the verses are the highlight. Dream Theater verses, for the most part, seem like they are there only 'cause they have to be.

I actually completely agree with this, I'd never really realised it before. The only DT verse I really love is in Wait For Sleep, and that's basically the chorus the song is so short.

If TCOT had had better lyrics, how much higher would it be on people's DT lists, out of curiosity?

[Martinman300]

Here is a point I do not believe anyone has touched upon yet, except for briefly by Adami:

For the next Dream Theater album, the vocals need to be better. I am not talking about style, technique, or even choruses; more specifically, I am talking about verses.

The only vocal parts I ever seem to remember from Dream Theater songs are choruses. I never noticed it until this past year, when artists like John Mayer and R.E.M. came to dominate my playlist, whose respective catalogs are filled to the brim with songs where the verses are the highlight. Dream Theater verses, for the most part, seem like they are there only 'cause they have to be.

Do NOT agree.

[robwebster]

Here is a point I do not believe anyone has touched upon yet, except for briefly by Adami:

For the next Dream Theater album, the vocals need to be better. I am not talking about style, technique, or even choruses; more specifically, I am talking about verses.

The only vocal parts I ever seem to remember from Dream Theater songs are choruses. I never noticed it until this past year, when artists like John Mayer and R.E.M. came to dominate my playlist, whose respective catalogs are filled to the brim with songs where the verses are the highlight. Dream Theater verses, for the most part, seem like they are there only 'cause they have to be.

Oh, I don't know. I agree that the choruses are more memorable, but then "Without warning" is possibly one of the coolest verses I've heard in anything. Ever. I do think that Dream Theater put a hell of a lot of emphasis on the choruses, but I don't really think they neglect the verses. I think the choruses are just that much stronger because they want them to punch you in the gut.

Part of it might be that their verses are quite unique from a technical perspective - they try and do all these wayward things and throw in arpeggios and odd riffs. The chorus is where they kind of allow themselves to take a breather and just throw in some really catchy power chords. So I'm almost tempted to say it's because they've left room for the vocals in the chorus. I mean, take AROP. It's got that weird middle-eastern riff going all the way through. That riff's the catchiest riff I've heard in ages. I could sing that riff for hours. The chorus is the only place in the song where they really go "right, ease up chaps, it's time for a spot of LaBrie!" It's the only bit in a song where they leave space for the vocals to carry it.

I think that's just an occupational hazard of being a progressive rock band. They're composers who like to try and fill every second with some top notch music. I mean, if you listen to Muse's instrumentals (as in, songs with the vocals removed), they're very basic. Repetitive almost, but that's cool because the vocals are almost the keystone, and they use a rockin' bass riff as the backdrop rather than a main feature. Throw on a Dream Theater instrumental, on the other hand, and it's chock full of nifty bits all the way through - it chops and changes more than a chameleon slicing up some carrots. They leave some room for the vocals and don't properly go all out frets-on-fire till the instrumental section, but with Dream Theater the emphasis has always been on the musicianship and writing excellent music. If there's something to sing along to, all the better.

I don't think the verses are weak, though, vocally. But there are elements of truth to what you say, and I think they quite wisely stand back and don't saturate the verses with all these interweaving melodies.

[Quadrochosis]

Honestly, I kind of miss the arena rock drum sound to Portnoy's kit from I&W.

[Marvellous G]

Here is a point I do not believe anyone has touched upon yet, except for briefly by Adami:

For the next Dream Theater album, the vocals need to be better. I am not talking about style, technique, or even choruses; more specifically, I am talking about verses.

The only vocal parts I ever seem to remember from Dream Theater songs are choruses. I never noticed it until this past year, when artists like John Mayer and R.E.M. came to dominate my playlist, whose respective catalogs are filled to the brim with songs where the verses are the highlight. Dream Theater verses, for the most part, seem like they are there only 'cause they have to be.

I think that's just an occupational hazard of being a progressive rock band. They're composers who like to try and fill every second with some top notch music.

While I definitely see your point there, other progressive rock bands do seem to still be able to make verses that carry equal weight to the choruses, like Tool or PT for example. The verses in Tool's Lateralus or PT's Blackest Eyes are just as memorable to me as the choruses. But then I suppose DT do cram in more instrumental goodness into their verses, like the crazy guitar work in Metropolis' second verse.

But the reason I agree with TOX here is that even in their simpler songs such as Wither with nothing really going on that's musically amazing in the verses, the vocal melodies (although I know they're completely subjective) are just sort of bland, and it really does seem like they're looking at a 'how to structure a song' book and realising they need it to be Verse, Prechorus, Chorus rather than it flowing naturally sometimes.

[ariich]

I agree with Rob, there's an obvious emphasis on choruses, but that doesn't mean the verses are neglected. Some are largely unmemorable of course, but nowhere near all.

Take ITPOE part 2 for example. Great, eerie verses, epic pre-chorus, rubbish chorus.

[Jamesman42]

If they blend in some LTE love (and a standalone instrumental) into what BC&SL was gearing toward, it would be awesome in theory.

[Adami]

If they blend in some LTE love (and a standalone instrumental) into what BC&SL was gearing toward, it would be awesome in theory.

It seems they tried that with ToT.

[contest_sanity]

If they blend in some LTE love (and a standalone instrumental) into what BC&SL was gearing toward, it would be awesome in theory.

It seems they tried that with ToT.

And it was awesome

[BRGM]

And still, naah, ToT and BC&SL is very different from each other I think, BC&SL is alot more Diverse, ToT is there agressive, heavy album, BC&SL has alot more than only heavyness, like Wither, The best of times, The count

[Adami]

And still, naah, ToT and BC&SL is very different from each other I think, BC&SL is alot more Diverse, ToT is there agressive, heavy album, BC&SL has alot more than only heavyness, like Wither, The best of times, The count

No one compared them.

[hefdaddy42]

And still, naah, ToT and BC&SL is very different from each other I think, BC&SL is alot more Diverse, ToT is there agressive, heavy album, BC&SL has alot more than only heavyness, like Wither, The best of times, The count

No one compared them.

And probably, no one should.

[Dublagent66]

I'm hoping it's a another double album with a wide range of material.  As far as everything else being argued about, it seems pretty pointless because DT can't please everyone's tastes.  They are what they are.  The one thing I would like is for MP to bring back his snare sound from Awake.  Really powerful and crisp snare drum.  Man, that was kickass!!

[jackbauer114]

DT should go crabcore.

That is all.

[Jamesman42]

If they blend in some LTE love (and a standalone instrumental) into what BC&SL was gearing toward, it would be awesome in theory.

It seems they tried that with ToT.

I see what you're saying, but they also tried to be ballsy. BC&SL didn't have as much "balls" as ToT did (although it does have its share of heaviness).

[Adami]

BCSL has just as much "balls" as TOT, if not more. The album is just more diverse and more dimensional.

[TL]

Above all else, I want the album to be well mastered.
Maybe they could bring in Steven Wilson to master it? (I know that won't happen, but it would be great).

For the style of the album, I think they started going in a good direction with BC&SL, and if they continue with it, the next album could be incredible.
I do think that, to an extent, they've imposed some arbitrary boundaries on themselves, and getting out of that box would be great. They have the creativity and the skill to put together something mindblowing, and I hope they choose to do so.

[reneranucci]

I'd love it if they changed their approach to how they write the metal sections. To me that's easily the weakest part of their game which is unfortunate considering how much certain members of the band seem to like balls to the wall stuff.

Uhm interesting opinion as I find the metal elements of DT to be excellent on the most part. Is your opinion that they have too much metal in their recent output, or that they write bad/unintersting metal riffs?

[orcus116]

Uninteresting. Bad's a bit harsh but I find a lot of their metal stuff very pedestrian and ordinary. As I said in the other thread I can't recall the last memorable metal riff they've done.

[Nic35]

Uninteresting. Bad's a bit harsh but I find a lot of their metal stuff very pedestrian and ordinary. As I said in the other thread I can't recall the last memorable metal riff they've done.

The end of TDEN has one hell of a riff. The main riff of ITNOG is also pretty kick ass. But it's a little old.

[Quadrochosis]

Uninteresting. Bad's a bit harsh but I find a lot of their metal stuff very pedestrian and ordinary. As I said in the other thread I can't recall the last memorable metal riff they've done.

The end of TDEN as one hell of a riff.

THE SLUDGIEST RIFF DT HAS EVER COME UP WITH!

[Perpetual Change]

Dream Theater's obvious metal influences, like Maiden and QR inspired parts, have always sounded good to me.  It's the more Metallica inspired stuff, as well as the stuff inspired by newer metal genres, that they have the toughest time with IMO.

[Adami]

Uninteresting. Bad's a bit harsh but I find a lot of their metal stuff very pedestrian and ordinary. As I said in the other thread I can't recall the last memorable metal riff they've done.

The end of TDEN has one hell of a riff. The main riff of ITNOG is also pretty kick ass. But it's a little old.

The ITNOG riff is pretty cool. The end of TDEN is just boring. VERY boring.

[Nic35]

Uninteresting. Bad's a bit harsh but I find a lot of their metal stuff very pedestrian and ordinary. As I said in the other thread I can't recall the last memorable metal riff they've done.

The end of TDEN has one hell of a riff. The main riff of ITNOG is also pretty kick ass. But it's a little old.

The ITNOG riff is pretty cool. The end of TDEN is just boring. VERY boring.

Not is it pretty cool, it's the best riff JP has done with DT.

[Adami]

The ITNOG riff is the best riff JP has ever done? Hm.

No.

[Nic35]

Uninteresting. Bad's a bit harsh but I find a lot of their metal stuff very pedestrian and ordinary. As I said in the other thread I can't recall the last memorable metal riff they've done.

The end of TDEN has one hell of a riff. The main riff of ITNOG is also pretty kick ass. But it's a little old.

The ITNOG riff is pretty cool. The end of TDEN is just boring. VERY boring.

Not is it pretty cool, it's the best riff JP has done with DT.

[KevShmev]

The ITNOG riff is pretty cool. The end of TDEN is just boring. VERY boring.

Not is it pretty cool, it's the best riff JP has done with DT.

I cannot agree with this, either.  I have grown to really love "In the Name of God," after being somewhat on the fence about it for years, but that riff, while good, isn't close to being one of his best with DT, IMO.  It still reminds me of Metallica's "King Nothing" a bit too much.