Dream Theater's 11th Album v. Play Nice

[Nick]

Alright, we're trying this again.

Old one here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=13267.0

I want decent discussion, not pointless bickering.

Note: If you make a point to try and dissect everyone's argument about something tooth and nail they are going to get annoyed about it. You can have discussion but if you take it too far bad things are going to happen.

[Nic35]

I was wonderwing why I couldn't quote in the other thread

They did that on 8va and everyone was like "Where's the solos!?!!"

The internet is going to go batshit no matter what DT do. I'd rather them ignore the 10 people on DTF and random newbs who always get into fights about this and have them just pick up from Black Clouds.

That's what most likely will happen. But I can't imagine how five talented musicians can stick to their routine without getting bored, and not wanting to change the direction of their material.

They have a done a straightforward metal album, now they should make a straightforward mellow album.

[Perpetual Change]

See, I think the whole problem with DT's post-SDOIT output was the mindset that they were going to explore different genres. Is exploring bad? No! But DT took "exploring different genres" to mean "we're gonna write songs that are strictly metal," or, "we're gonna write songs that are strictly ballads."

BC&SL is so much better than the last three albums because it leaves behind that generic compositional approach and throws all those different ideas into one big soup, where, like on Images and Words, you have songs that just... progress... rather than staying in one spot for their entirety.  

Did DT give this style of composing up entirely? No. Octavarium and In The Presence of Enemies have it. And they're also the two best songs on those album-- albums which many find to be quite a cut below the rest of the discography (even though I LOVE Octavarium).

So would I like a DT album with plenty of mellow sections? Sure! It would be a nice change of pace. But do I want an album full of Repentance and Wither? Hell no! I'd rather just see DT continue to write songs that are all over the place again, as they seem to have started to do again with Black Clouds. More A Nightmare to Remembers with beautiful "Beautiful Agony" mid-song interludes. More Tuscanies with soft, uplifting outros that include melodies and instrumentation that isn't already heard in the first chorus before the 7 minute long heavy riffing and instrumental section. 

[orcus116]

I'd love it if they changed their approach to how they write the metal sections. To me that's easily the weakest part of their game which is unfortunate considering how much certain members of the band seem to like balls to the wall stuff.

[Perpetual Change]

I'd love it if they changed their approach to how they write the metal sections. To me that's easily the weakest part of their game which is unfortunate considering how much certain members of the band seem to like balls to the wall stuff.

Yeah. I love John's solos on the last few albums, but i'd like it if they got back to doing those LTE "zany" kinda instrumental sections.

A Nightmare to Remember is so much more interesting to me at 12:00-13:00 than it is from 8:30 onto the reprise.

[orcus116]

As I said in the other thread I'd like to see him change his playing style as well since he's been playing exactly the same since, hell, Train of Thought? Unfortunately I can't say exactly what I'd want him to do but just something different would be nice.

[Darkes7]

The metal sections themselves are fine as they are. It's the instrumental sections that could be changed a bit, it has worked for a while now, but it would be the right time to experiment a bit more with them now. The problem of guitar/keyboard duels has been brought up now and then, and it is indeed a bit predictable. Though still, I prefer one, well-executed instrumental section like on ANTR than making the whole song filled with instrumental sections like it was the case with The Count of Tuscany, as it makes the song seriously disjointed, I hope they don't go in that direction again.

And can't agree with the "it's only heavy or only calm" theory either. What about Sacrificed Sons or The Ministry of Lost Souls? All these songs which can't be defined as "heavy" or "light", like Never Enough or Forsaken? It's not that simple. On BC&SL it's more obvious simply because four out of six song have >12 minutes...

[Perpetual Change]

Sacrificed Sons in an obvious exception. As for TMOLS, what were you saying about disjointed?

I wouldn't have Tuscany any other way. It's beautiful. Even though the melodies are the same throughout the song, they're presented in very different ways. That's DT progressing for ya.

[Darkes7]

Nope, it has a decent structure, nothing disjointed about it. And I definitely don't like it if every single vocal section has an instrumental section before and after it. It feels like artificial lengthening of a song and that's something I normally could never accuse DT of.

[toro]

well-executed instrumental section like on ANTR than making the whole song filled with instrumental sections like it was the case with The Count of Tuscany, as it makes the song seriously disjointed, I hope they don't go in that direction again.

What did I just read?
ANTR instrumental better than the count of tuscany? or what are you implying?

EDIT-
Speaking of DISJOINTED, TMOLS is their most disjointed song EVER.

[Darkes7]

One good instrumental better than instrumentals all over the place. I don't see what could possibly be unclear here.

Because of what? Of having an instrumental section that fits the atmosphere and theme of the song? Structure-wise, it's fairly similar to Sacrificed Sons for example. It's definitely a better way to go imo, and I'd definitely prefer if they stuck to this on the next albums (assuming they'll still want typical instrumental sections) rather than instrumental parts everywhere.

[toro]

One good instrumental better than instrumentals all over the place. I don't see what could possibly be unclear here.

Because of what? Of having an instrumental section that fits the atmosphere and theme of the song? Structure-wise, it's fairly similar to Sacrificed Sons for example. It's definitely a better way to go imo, and I'd definitely prefer if they stuck to this on the next albums (assuming they'll still want typical instrumental sections) rather than instrumental parts everywhere.

ya i got the ANTR thing but...

TMOLS instrumental DO NOT FITS the song, the instrumental completely changes the direction and the "atmosphere"of the song, trying to bring it back at the end doesn't mean it's actually the same atmosphere.
 SS it's better at it.

[Nick]

It feels like artificial lengthening of a song and that's something I normally could never accuse DT of.

This made a lot of sense. That was until I realized you were talking about The Count and not The Ministry.

[antigoon]

Maybe one long instrumental break a la ANTR would work if it wasn't so damn boring to listen to. There isn't a minute in TCOT in which my interest wanes.

[Darkes7]

TMOLS instrumental DO NOT FITS the song, the instrumental completely changes the direction and the "atmosphere"of the song, trying to bring it back at the end doesn't mean it's actually the same atmosphere.
 SS it's better at it.

The song is about someone being saved from drowning and the person who saved her drowned himself. Let me guess... what could possibly be the significance of the instrumental?

And even if I had no idea what the song is about, it's definitely dramatic enough to make sense and it has never felt out of place for me even a bit.

It feels like artificial lengthening of a song and that's something I normally could never accuse DT of.

This made a lot of sense. That was until I realized you were talking about The Count and not The Ministry.

Read above, repeated around four times.

[SystematicThought]

Do you guys think Raw Dog may have indicated a change in direction. To me it sounds different from what they have done

[Nick]

TMOLS instrumental DO NOT FITS the song, the instrumental completely changes the direction and the "atmosphere"of the song, trying to bring it back at the end doesn't mean it's actually the same atmosphere.
 SS it's better at it.

The song is about someone being saved from drowning and the person who saved her drowned himself. Let me guess... what could possibly be the significance of the instrumental?

And even if I had no idea what the song is about, it's definitely dramatic enough to make sense and it has never felt out of place for me even a bit.

It feels like artificial lengthening of a song and that's something I normally could never accuse DT of.

This made a lot of sense. That was until I realized you were talking about The Count and not The Ministry.

Read above, repeated around four times.

What you seem to fail to realize is that no matter how many times you say it that doesn't make it true. I'm not saying I'm right, as nobody can actually be right in this argument, but I think you have to open and and see that other people see things differently and that it's a good thing.

P.S. I find Ministry to be the ONLY DT song over 10 minutes that drags.

[KevShmev]

"The Count of Tuscany" is one of the best flowing and most cohesive pieces they have done in the last 10 years, not to mention it is filled with lots of good melodies.  I hope they can match that on the next record, but with better lyrics, of course.

I wouldn't put too much stock into "Raw Dog."  That was probably just a one-off type of song.

[toro]

TMOLS instrumental DO NOT FITS the song, the instrumental completely changes the direction and the "atmosphere"of the song, trying to bring it back at the end doesn't mean it's actually the same atmosphere.
 SS it's better at it.

The song is about someone being saved from drowning and the person who saved her drowned himself. Let me guess... what could possibly be the significance of the instrumental?

And even if I had no idea what the song is about, it's definitely dramatic enough to make sense and it has never felt out of place for me even a bit.

The first 6 minutes of the song are dramatic enough, talking about the instrumental is there to add drama to somenthing that's al ready dramatic makes no sense.
And it's overanalyzing, the song itself, really the instrumental it's there to add "balls" and keep up with the album vibe.

[Nick]

I wouldn't put too much stock into "Raw Dog."  That was probably just a one-off type of song.

I don't like the song much (probably my least favorite DT song tbh), but I honestly forget that song even exists, pretty much because it has never been released on a hard copy of anything.

But yeah, probably a one off thing and not indicative of a style they might go towards.

[toro]

I wouldn't put too much stock into "Raw Dog."  That was probably just a one-off type of song.

I don't like the song much (probably my least favorite DT song tbh), but I honestly forget that song even exists, pretty much because it has never been released on a hard copy of anything.

THIS.
And i think we'll never see somenthing like "Raw Dog" from DT again, unless a similar song gets released as a B side, but not as an Album song.

[Darkes7]

What you seem to fail to realize is that no matter how many times you say it that doesn't make it true. I'm not saying I'm right, as nobody can actually be right in this argument, but I think you have to open and and see that other people see things differently and that it's a good thing.

P.S. I find Ministry to be the ONLY DT song over 10 minutes that drags.

One of my last posts in part one of the thread... Why do you believe you know better than me what I'm thinking? I know everyone sees things differently and there's little to no chance of anyone changing their opinion. And your post definitely could be read the way you are suggesting my posts can be read, hence the reply.

Well, I find it to be among those that drag the least...

The first 6 minutes of the song are dramatic enough, talking about the instrumental is there to add drama to somenthing that's al ready dramatic makes no sense.
And it's overanalyzing, the song itself, really the instrumental it's there to add "balls" and keep up with the album vibe.

I can't see how you need "balls to keep up with the album vibe" as it's almost 50/50 light/heavy. Assuming it's overanalyzing, from a purely musical point of view the instrumental adds variety. Three verses with a following chorus wouldn't work too well. This changes things a bit.


As for Raw Dog, I also think it was more like an experiment. They didn't even care for too much promotion about it, so I don't think they took it that seriously and that it could be considered any kind of "prophecy". [Although as for release, it would be cool if there was some kind of actual DT EP with it, as I definitely prefer physical releases. E.g. Raw Dog and maybe one or two live recordings of BC&SL songs would be nice]

[yeshaberto]

based on the last 10 albums, I will listen to it the first time and go, "huh" then after a few more listens I will go, "whoa" and then after about 10 listens I will have my jaw dropped in continuous ecstacy until about 1000th listen in which case I will go, "about time for another album"

[toro]

Am I the only one here who wants a FII like album?

[SystematicThought]

Am I the only one here who wants a FII like album?

I want the production of FII 

I also wouldn't mind some of the things they did on the album to come around again. FII, writing the music seemed to be extremely important, and that's kind of what I want back.

[Nick]

I wouldn't mind a lot of FII elements present in a new album.

[contest_sanity]

I like how diverse FII is.  I like how each song has its own identity.  I also would love another album with 11 songs.  So go ahead and toss FII into that inspiration corner as well.

[toro]

Glad some people agree with me 
I would love FII production, short rocking songs combined with some 10+ minutes epics,and a nice atmosphere would be an amazing album, like FII.

[Nick]

Going off of Black Clouds one of the things I'd really like to see carry over to the next album is more of the orchestra type keyboard parts like in Wither.

[SystematicThought]

Going off of Black Clouds one of the things I'd really like to see carry over to the next album is more of the orchestra type keyboard parts like in Wither.

Agreed. Also the soprano sound used in ANTR is one I'd like to see carried over. I wouldn't mind seeing some actual orchestras being used again

[Darkes7]

Yes, that would be great indeed.

Although I don't want an anything-like album. Inspiration is ok, but Anything Pt. 2 is not something I'm interested in. It's called progressive.

[antigoon]

Yes, that would be great indeed.

Although I don't want an anything-like album. Inspiration is ok, but Anything Pt. 2 is not something I'm interested in. It's called progressive.

Yeah, if only they would actually be progressive instead of sticking to the genre requirements of weedly weedly.

[contest_sanity]

Yes, that would be great indeed.

Although I don't want an anything-like album. Inspiration is ok, but Anything Pt. 2 is not something I'm interested in. It's called progressive.

Yeah, if only they would actually be progressive instead of sticking to the genre requirements of weedly weedly.

Would it be fair to say they invented the genre requirements of weedly weedly?

[antigoon]

How is that relevant?

[toro]

Yes, that would be great indeed.

Although I don't want an anything-like album. Inspiration is ok, but Anything Pt. 2 is not something I'm interested in. It's called progressive.

Again with the progressive stuff? You know it's more like just the name of the genre not that they have to actually progress every year right? because by that logic they haven't progressed a lot since TOT.
altought i know what you mean by not "pt2" FFI, but it's not like  i want Trial of Tears pt2 or You Not Me pt 2(god help us), just the ideas and the relax/rock style of the album.